6 ms·

What a collapsing empire looks like

43 points by ajg1977 16y ago

mynameishere 16y ago
He paints a picture of local/state governments declining and the federal government ascending. This is, in fact, the birth of an empire.
- madair 16y ago
  Only if it's sustainable. Corruption on the scale here is a known destabilizer of empires.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
CapitalistCartr 16y ago
Nonsense; this is local and state governments that spent like drunken sailors during the boom now having to cut back, and doing a poor job of it. They made stupid choices in years past, like not paying down debts, lavish pension terms, lots of staff, etc. Now they don't want to cut those, and in some cases can't. So they're making panicky choices.
- madair 16y ago
  You should analyze your statements against what the article said. Oh, and also reality. Edit: But it is brilliant that this comment would be by someone named CapitalistCartr, what with the class war looming and right v left being an anxious distraction. I can't see how anything other than copious amounts of fear will keep the class war staved off--xenophobia, war, and culture changes surrounding the religious do the job nicely though. Pretty easy to summarize the sources of power. I don't have much expectation that people will feel played, so looming but maybe not likely. Fox is famous for Fox New at the same time as Family Guy, The Simpsons, and American Dad, and hardly anybody pauses at that; quite a prominent mix of Right v Left right there by an ideologue like Rupert Murdoch. The very wealthy purchasing power and profiteering on fear. How is the plain obviousness of the corruption even defensible? sigh
  - Ardit20 16y ago
    What on earth are you on about? He said they did not save during boom times, so it is a human mistake, not some collapse of empire ( I didn't know America is an empire btw, I thought it was a country.)
    - madair 16y ago
      You didn't know that America is an empire? The most powerful country that has ever existed? The one by which every other major power measures themselves? Time to do some reading I think, TV rots ur brain ;) What you need to realize is that a minuscule percentage of economists will agree with your "saving during boom times". The money system just doesn't work like that. As I said, my second part was reactionary to his moniker in relation to his comment, his comment is populist rhetoric and is completely incorrect from a strictly capitalist view. People who call themselves capitalists should at least bother to get it.
      - Ardit20 16y ago
        I thought an empire is created when you occupy other countries and impose your system upon them. Like Rome was an empire because it stretched way above the borders or rome, or Mongolia, or persia, though maybe I have a wrong definition of empire. But it seems that wikepedia agrees with me: "Politically, an empire is a geographically extensive group of states and peoples (ethnic groups) united and ruled either by a monarch (emperor, empress) or an oligarchy. Geopolitically, the term empire has denoted very different, territorially-extreme states"
        madair 16y ago
        Ahaha so it's about semantics. lol, take your time, then go read some Fukuyama and a few state department statements.
        Ardit20 16y ago
        Its not about semantics, it is about connecting a word to reality. America is not an empire. It is perhaps the most successful country on earth, it has great influence, but it is just a country. It might however be trying to become an empire with all those invasions, but it is hardly there yet.
- mcantelon 16y ago
  True, and the trend of questionable spending at all levels of government will likely continue as long as lobbyists are able to pay politicians to make these choices.
  - dualogy 16y ago
    Well if the system of politics doesn't bubble those of highest integrity and uncompromising, "un-bribable" characters to the top, is that the "lobbyists" fault or isn't the system at least partially flawed in itself?
    - Ardit20 16y ago
      The system ain't great, but it doesn't excuse the lobbyists.
- dualogy 16y ago
  That IS the point of the article though. The past few booms were WallSt./FED-inflated anyway. Combine the concept of public service / public property (ie ill-defined or merely formal/shortterm-administrative rather than heart-felt/longterm-invested ownership responsibilities) with easy credit and decades of cultivating debt as a life-style choice and this is what the return trip looks like.
lionhearted 16y ago
They missed a big one: > Salaries and benefits — for identical jobs — are 30 percent to 40 percent higher in the federal government than in the private sector. Claims that this dramatic discrepancy in compensation is warranted because of government workers’ high skills are unjustified, as this study shows. Equally unjustified is the fact that federal workers can rarely be fired, no matter how poor their job performance. Congress should align federal salaries and benefits with market rates—a simple, and fair, move that could save taxpayers nearly $47 billion in 2011.
- jleyank 16y ago
  Things must have changed since the 80's and are probably based on particular market segments/disciplines. Back then, science/engineering pay grades were below private industry - the stability of govt. made up for it. I've got no clue now, but I can't see how, for example, govt. pays more than pharma.
- whyenot 16y ago
  That's obviously not from the article so who are you quoting?
  - splat 16y ago
    It's an abstract from a Heritage Foundation report: http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2010/07/Inflated-Federal-Pay-How-Americans-Are-Overtaxed-to-Overpay-the-Civil-Service http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2010/07/Inflated-Fe...
    - Locke1689 16y ago
      I'm not disputing the facts and don't really have the time to look it up right now, but the Heritage Foundation isn't really nonpartisan. Founded in 1973, The Heritage Foundation is a research and educational institution—a think tank—whose mission is to formulate and promote conservative public policies based on the principles of free enterprise, limited government, individual freedom, traditional American values, and a strong national defense.
SkyMarshal 16y ago
This is what deflation looks like - very bad for any person, business, or government in debt. Quantity and velocity of money decreases, leaving less revenue to service and pay down debts, forcing cuts and austerity across the board. This is what Bernanke is trying desperately to prevent, even at the cost of devaluing the currency by overprinting. Whether it will succeed is arguable, depending on whether the idea of Diminishing Marginal Productivity of Debt is accurate and applicable: http://market-ticker.org/archives/2130-On-Deficits-And-Debt-Financed-Government.html http://market-ticker.org/archives/2130-On-Deficits-And-Debt-...
lutorm 16y ago
What's sad is that the US could really afford these things. It's just a matter of seriously misplaced priorities.
Locke1689 16y ago
I honestly don't get it. State governments are floundering trying to cover their expenses. It seems like people need to make a choice: do we want these public services or not? If so: RAISE TAXES. God forbid we actually pay for the services we want.
- madair 16y ago
  A lot of that floundering is all about their big losses...Wall St, over-resourcing for the housing bubble, budgeting based on bubble math, widespread corruption and backroom dealing, oh, and there's that huge army fighting a couple big wars with a budget larger than the military of rest of the world combined.
- nradov 16y ago
  That's a false choice. We can get the same level of public service for less by cutting public sector compensation.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
k3dz 16y ago
Salaries and benefits — for identical jobs — are up to 5-10 times higher than the developing world... even adjusting for purchasing power parity and the cost of living.. this is too large a difference... and is becoming increasingly unsustainable.. leading to all kinds of job losses. maybe just a little bit of lifestyle downgrade in the developed world is the need of the hour
- Ardit20 16y ago
  Just because others are worse does not mean we should follow their example.

43 points by ajg1977 16y ago

He paints a picture of local/state governments declining and the federal government ascending. This is, in fact, the birth of an empire.

madair 16y ago
Only if it's sustainable. Corruption on the scale here is a known destabilizer of empires.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]

CapitalistCartr 16y ago

Nonsense; this is local and state governments that spent like drunken sailors during the boom now having to cut back, and doing a poor job of it. They made stupid choices in years past, like not paying down debts, lavish pension terms, lots of staff, etc. Now they don't want to cut those, and in some cases can't. So they're making panicky choices.

madair 16y ago
You should analyze your statements against what the article said. Oh, and also reality. Edit: But it is brilliant that this comment would be by someone named CapitalistCartr, what with the class war looming and right v left being an anxious distraction. I can't see how anything other than copious amounts of fear will keep the class war staved off--xenophobia, war, and culture changes surrounding the religious do the job nicely though. Pretty easy to summarize the sources of power. I don't have much expectation that people will feel played, so looming but maybe not likely. Fox is famous for Fox New at the same time as Family Guy, The Simpsons, and American Dad, and hardly anybody pauses at that; quite a prominent mix of Right v Left right there by an ideologue like Rupert Murdoch. The very wealthy purchasing power and profiteering on fear. How is the plain obviousness of the corruption even defensible? sigh
- Ardit20 16y ago
  What on earth are you on about? He said they did not save during boom times, so it is a human mistake, not some collapse of empire ( I didn't know America is an empire btw, I thought it was a country.)
  - madair 16y ago
    You didn't know that America is an empire? The most powerful country that has ever existed? The one by which every other major power measures themselves? Time to do some reading I think, TV rots ur brain ;) What you need to realize is that a minuscule percentage of economists will agree with your "saving during boom times". The money system just doesn't work like that. As I said, my second part was reactionary to his moniker in relation to his comment, his comment is populist rhetoric and is completely incorrect from a strictly capitalist view. People who call themselves capitalists should at least bother to get it.
    - Ardit20 16y ago
      I thought an empire is created when you occupy other countries and impose your system upon them. Like Rome was an empire because it stretched way above the borders or rome, or Mongolia, or persia, though maybe I have a wrong definition of empire. But it seems that wikepedia agrees with me: "Politically, an empire is a geographically extensive group of states and peoples (ethnic groups) united and ruled either by a monarch (emperor, empress) or an oligarchy. Geopolitically, the term empire has denoted very different, territorially-extreme states"
      - madair 16y ago
        Ahaha so it's about semantics. lol, take your time, then go read some Fukuyama and a few state department statements.
        Ardit20 16y ago
        Its not about semantics, it is about connecting a word to reality. America is not an empire. It is perhaps the most successful country on earth, it has great influence, but it is just a country. It might however be trying to become an empire with all those invasions, but it is hardly there yet.
mcantelon 16y ago
True, and the trend of questionable spending at all levels of government will likely continue as long as lobbyists are able to pay politicians to make these choices.
- dualogy 16y ago
  Well if the system of politics doesn't bubble those of highest integrity and uncompromising, "un-bribable" characters to the top, is that the "lobbyists" fault or isn't the system at least partially flawed in itself?
  - Ardit20 16y ago
    The system ain't great, but it doesn't excuse the lobbyists.
dualogy 16y ago
That IS the point of the article though. The past few booms were WallSt./FED-inflated anyway. Combine the concept of public service / public property (ie ill-defined or merely formal/shortterm-administrative rather than heart-felt/longterm-invested ownership responsibilities) with easy credit and decades of cultivating debt as a life-style choice and this is what the return trip looks like.

lionhearted 16y ago

They missed a big one: > Salaries and benefits — for identical jobs — are 30 percent to 40 percent higher in the federal government than in the private sector. Claims that this dramatic discrepancy in compensation is warranted because of government workers’ high skills are unjustified, as this study shows. Equally unjustified is the fact that federal workers can rarely be fired, no matter how poor their job performance. Congress should align federal salaries and benefits with market rates—a simple, and fair, move that could save taxpayers nearly $47 billion in 2011.

jleyank 16y ago
Things must have changed since the 80's and are probably based on particular market segments/disciplines. Back then, science/engineering pay grades were below private industry - the stability of govt. made up for it. I've got no clue now, but I can't see how, for example, govt. pays more than pharma.
whyenot 16y ago
That's obviously not from the article so who are you quoting?
- splat 16y ago
  It's an abstract from a Heritage Foundation report: http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2010/07/Inflated-Federal-Pay-How-Americans-Are-Overtaxed-to-Overpay-the-Civil-Service http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2010/07/Inflated-Fe...
  - Locke1689 16y ago
    I'm not disputing the facts and don't really have the time to look it up right now, but the Heritage Foundation isn't really nonpartisan. Founded in 1973, The Heritage Foundation is a research and educational institution—a think tank—whose mission is to formulate and promote conservative public policies based on the principles of free enterprise, limited government, individual freedom, traditional American values, and a strong national defense.

SkyMarshal 16y ago

This is what deflation looks like - very bad for any person, business, or government in debt. Quantity and velocity of money decreases, leaving less revenue to service and pay down debts, forcing cuts and austerity across the board. This is what Bernanke is trying desperately to prevent, even at the cost of devaluing the currency by overprinting. Whether it will succeed is arguable, depending on whether the idea of Diminishing Marginal Productivity of Debt is accurate and applicable: http://market-ticker.org/archives/2130-On-Deficits-And-Debt-Financed-Government.html http://market-ticker.org/archives/2130-On-Deficits-And-Debt-...

lutorm 16y ago

What's sad is that the US could really afford these things. It's just a matter of seriously misplaced priorities.

Locke1689 16y ago

I honestly don't get it. State governments are floundering trying to cover their expenses. It seems like people need to make a choice: do we want these public services or not? If so: RAISE TAXES. God forbid we actually pay for the services we want.

madair 16y ago
A lot of that floundering is all about their big losses...Wall St, over-resourcing for the housing bubble, budgeting based on bubble math, widespread corruption and backroom dealing, oh, and there's that huge army fighting a couple big wars with a budget larger than the military of rest of the world combined.
nradov 16y ago
That's a false choice. We can get the same level of public service for less by cutting public sector compensation.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

k3dz 16y ago

Salaries and benefits — for identical jobs — are up to 5-10 times higher than the developing world... even adjusting for purchasing power parity and the cost of living.. this is too large a difference... and is becoming increasingly unsustainable.. leading to all kinds of job losses. maybe just a little bit of lifestyle downgrade in the developed world is the need of the hour

Ardit20 16y ago
Just because others are worse does not mean we should follow their example.