7 ms·

[Throwaway account, for obvious reasons.] I'm pretty sure my wife has BPD. To me, it seems hopeless for her to get treated. I haven't brought it up with her,

[Throwaway account, for obvious reasons.] I'm pretty sure my wife has BPD. To me, it seems hopeless for her to get treated. I haven't brought it up with her, I expect that would go poorly. One of the main symptoms is that she feels attacked by people even when they are making innocent comments on things. It is not just me who as noticed that. I have discretely brought it up with some others who know her and they have confirmed it. She has cut ties to her family as they are "toxic people". Based on my readings, I understood that most psychiatrists think treatment is unlikely to work. If there is hope, that would be amazing. It is a difficult condition to live with, both for her and people who know her.

brookside 9y ago
Have you always observed this behavior in your wife? And I am curious, what happens when you delicately attempt to discuss this with her.
- hie6Rofogo 9y ago
  I didn't come to the BPD conclusion until pretty recently. Previously I figured it was the stereotypical situation where the husband is insensitive and cannot communicate what he means. I mean, I am insensitive, I know that. So, it took me quite a while to realize her reactions are not normal. Seeing her reactions to other people, especially her family members was key. I've had discussions previously, in the right moment. She has admitted that she sometimes takes my comments as criticism when they are not intended as such. We did discuss getting couples therapy, which she was willing to try.
  - Blackstone4 9y ago
    I was married to someone who I believe has BPD and we went to couples therapy ... be careful... it can and may well be used against you...whilst at the same time not help her condition...someone with BPD typically has many issues on the surface. These tend to consume the therapy sessions. Whilst the deep seated problems go unchecked... I feel like the real issue for someone with BPD is processing incoming messages (verbal/actions etc.). When you're starting position is defensive and highly emotional, it's hard to be rational.... hence why messages are often misinterpreted and why people w/ BPD appear to live in another reality...they need to learn to slow down and use their rational brain to keep their emotions in check... I'm not sure she'll learn this from couples therapy You might find this book helpful: The Chimp Paradox: The Mind Management Program to Help You Achieve Success, Confidence, and Happiness https://www.amazon.com/Chimp-Paradox-Management-Program-Confidence/dp/039916359X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1512172079&sr=8-1&keywords=chimp+mind+management https://www.amazon.com/Chimp-Paradox-Management-Program-Conf...
philwelch 9y ago
As someone who had a close personal relationship with a borderline for years: get out. A divorce will be nasty, particularly with a borderline, but a lifetime spent with such a person will not be a happy one. With any kind of mental health, the person “suffering” from it has to be the one who wants treatment, and with BPD, most of the suffering ends up outsourced to others, which eliminates that motivation. I know this is hard to hear, but part of BPD is an inability to form healthy relationships. The flip side is that it takes two people to maintain an unhealthy relationship. You’re not helping her by staying in this marriage; at best, you’re enabling her and at worst, you’re suffering from her mental illness at least as much as she is.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- jaredhansen 9y ago
  This advice is pernicious and self-serving bullshit. You don't know the poster or his/her wife. You don't know the wife. You don't have anywhere near enough information (unless you think a BPD diagnosis or suspected diagnosis is in itself sufficient information, in which case you're contradicted by a very well established line of research going back a number of decades; see links I've posted elsewhere in this thread) to assess the poster's wife's mental state or likelihood of recovery. Your comment completely misunderstands how BPD works and completely misrepresents the likelihood of recovery. I understand that you may need to prove to yourself that you made the right call by cutting off someone with this disorder in the past, and maybe you did -- but that isn't epistemic justification for the very conclusory advice you're offering the poster.
  - philwelch 9y ago
    Advice is directional, not absolute. Someone isn’t going to divorce their wife just because someone on HN told them to. They’re going to second-guess whether she has BPD and go through mental gymnastics, possibly for years, to avoid doing that. If I’m going to give someone a nudge, I don’t need to nudge them to do that second guessing. They’re going to do that anyway. I need to nudge them to take the situation seriously and follow the logical consequences that follow if they are married to a borderline. If the wife is the rare borderline who actually cares to get treatment and overcome her BPD, I know that this guy is going to give her that second or third or nth chance because that’s exactly what I would have done in his place.
mcmurdosound123 9y ago
I'm pretty sure my wife has it too. She had a trying childhood and parents divorced. The counselors we have seen are happy to take our money and not look beyond false front she presents to them. They are also keen on validating my feelings instead of believing me that there is something wrong with her. She also cut off ties with family when they did something innocent. She calls her in-laws toxic, and tells our children that. I'm wondering what to do as well, and I don't feel at all hopeful for the future. I wonder if I divorce if my children will develop her same problem.
- hie6Rofogo 9y ago
  For my wife, I believe childhood events triggered her as well. She grew up in China, not long after the cultural revolution. Her dad was barely home due to traveling for work. Her mother was controlling to an absurd degree. I am concerned about my daughter inheriting the condition. She shows signs of being deathly afraid of being rejected by people. I guess I should study up more and talk to her about it.
- kross 9y ago
  Stop going to counselors. The standard for counselors is surprisingly low, and many are damaged themselves and bring their own biases into sessions. Research PHDs in your area and talk with a psychotherapist. Go on your own, without your wife and find your bearings. They will help you from there. Don't be afraid to find a different one early if you don't feel they are connecting with you.
jaredhansen 9y ago
>Based on my readings, I understood that most psychiatrists think treatment is unlikely to work. It's very likely your sources are pretty stale. For several decades, yes, the prognosis for BPD was quite poor. But this is no longer true and has not been true really since at least the late 90s. BPD is much, _much_ better understood than it was in the 70s/80s, thanks in large part to the work of Marsha Linehan[0]. Depending on various factors the prognosis can actually be very good, and people can and do get better from even fairly severe BPD. (See e.g. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/209726 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/... ) I've watched this happen with a close family member and I'm happy to provide a bunch more resources etc (email in profile). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsha_M._Linehan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsha_M._Linehan
- cryoshon 9y ago
  upvoted for referencing linehan-- she is an excellent example of a relentless scientist / clinical practitioner who has absolutely revolutionized her entire specialty and likely saved many thousands of lives (BPD drives people to suicide very regularly) as a result. in short, we need more like her.
  - phkahler 9y ago
    >> upvoted for referencing linehan Did you know she had BPD and recovered from it? Yeah, we need more people who have personal experience solving their problems rather than analysts trying to figure them out ;-)
dsego 9y ago
That sounds about right, my brother is diagnosed. He is very abusive, emotional vampire but never sees his mistakes, and always blames other people for everything. Really hard to deal with. There are some books that can help, for example Stop Walking on Eggshells. I found this website useful: http://outofthefog.website/personality-disorders-1/2015/12/6/borderline-personality-disorder-bpd http://outofthefog.website/personality-disorders-1/2015/12/6...
- owebmaster 9y ago
  Reading your comments, your brother might be right when he thinks you are toxic to him.
  - dsego 9y ago
    I'm sure if you heard his side it would look like the whole family are monsters. He's free to live his life and look for happiness were ever he finds it. Nobody stands in his way but himself.
    - owebmaster 9y ago
      Sure, the same way hearing your side it looks like he is a monster. It is difficult to know who is the one with BPD in the history.
      - dsego 9y ago
        I don't really care about what he thinks of me. I am independent, have a job, etc. He hasn't worked a day in his life, our parents are over 60, they can't take care of him forever. He needs help, and I don't know what to do. Any suggestion is received as criticism. He needs to become independent, to live his life, but he is trapped. And kind words, gestures and emotions aren't doing it. His mental health issues manifest as lack of hygiene, insomnia, withdrawing, overeating, preoccupation with interpersonal relationships to the detriment of everything else. The last one can be the daily "who said what to who, and how they said it" (and hurt feelings, showed insensitivity etc.) or e.g. won't think about finding a job until he has a girlfriend (priorities!!!) and achieves a stable relationship (which somehow never happens). How to penetrate and reason with someone who rejects reason and one unwitting remark can negate every sincere effort and set us back by months and years?
mjburgess 9y ago
Treatment is not unlikely to work. It just takes a lot of time, and it requires you find a therapist you wife trusts and who will engage with your wife in the way she needs. At the very least it sounds like your wife has critically low-selfesteem which would be part of BPD. If there is any way at all you can get her in a therapeutic environment, that would be a profoundly important gift to her . The life of a person with BPD is not destined to be a happy one, they're living like a cornered mouse for most of it and are really in harms way. They're likely to keep traumatizing themselves. To have a person who cares to prevent that is the greatest gift a person with BPD can have. My offhand suggestion is that you try therapy for yourself for a session and get some advice from a therapist. Keep moving between them until it's useful. It could be that you find away to have a couples therapy that is ostensibly for you but your wife might open up there.
- hie6Rofogo 9y ago
  Thank you, I think I should pursue the couples therapy. I'm a little scared of therapy as it seems like there is a lot of "cargo cult" type therapy and I want something that is based on actual science so it has a chance of helping. Seems very challenging to find the right therapist.
  - mjburgess 9y ago
    There isnt much of an actual science to base anything on. Therapy works by having another person serve as a kind of mirror. Just like ordinary mirrors allow you to recognise yourself visually, human mirrors allow you to see yourself "emotionally" (in broad terms). We are mostly just awash with emotion and experience -- all of us -- and we only become aware that we are experiencing some emotion (etc.) when we encounter another person who reacts to it. On a day alone we might be very frustrated but we only realise when our frustration causes another to recoil. It is this recoil that provides the "reflection" of what we are feeling that we can see. It is very hard to be aware of one's emotional state, and the capacity is trained and not particularly reliable in healthy people. But present enough to stabilize emotions. A therapist is only a person who serves as a good mirror for your wife. A person who is able to recoil at the things a healthy parent ought recoil at, a person who is able to be warm and accepting at the things a parent ought be accepting of. A therapist that hides behind a chair is useless. You're after someone around whom your wife isnt on-edge, and offers observations and emotive-physical reactions that your wife recognises and trusts. In a sense "that is it". It doesnt matter what superstitons the therapist uses to arrive at their questions and suggestions. By being experienced and empathetic -- and "parental" -- the right person need have no particular theoretical background. It's hard to say how easy it is to distinguish the good from the bad here. I guess you need to trust your intuition about how your wife feels in the situation. You need to have seen a few yourself and be aware that some people simply make you profoundly comfortable because of who they are -- and it is these you are looking for. I am myself incredibly set on-edge by anyone i sense faking any emotion, so I cannot even be near therapists who smile too much (etc.). Fortunately, you do not need to "put up" with being in any sense on-edge. Find one that fits. There is no science of human emotional instinct (yet). Your wife's issues are extremely unique to her, in the sense that they are connected to her particular experiences and ways of thinking. What is needed is an opening up about these, to create a safe environment in which your wife feels able to recognise her self, and to relearn an emotionality (, identity, self-awareness, understanding of consequences, appreciation of the future, understanding that relationships remain constant when people go out of view...) and other things besides. PS. As far as criteria go, I believe years of experience is the main one. While the mechanism of change, I believe, is the interaction between the therapist and patient -- more experienced therapists will be able to spot more subtle problems. Newer ones will be easy for a person with BPD to fool. People with BPD are often, essentially, in a constant state of acting where they are fooling themselves with superstitions about who they are. The therapist needs to be alert to these superstitions being employed as explanations in answers to their questions. Ie., they need to be alert to your wife lying (but a lie she is not herself aware of). By way of example, I observed a therapist once say to a patient that he wouldnt tolerate anyone being different than he was. He made this observation based on the patient wishing to be "understood". The connection was: the patient was misdescribed people "misunderstanding" him to actually their disagreeing with him.. and he couldn't tolerate disagreement. The therapist made this suggestion base on their experience with this not uncommon issue (anger and hostility may often be a product of a fear of difference).
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
throwawayflurb 9y ago
Something that I found always makes people think is the observation that if everyone that meet is toxic, then they're the toxic one. Don't bring this up directly of course. Just talk about someone at work or in the news who always seems to be complaining -- and while you're reading the newspaper or chatting about work. Don't bring it up out of nowhere. (this advice is may be worth what you paid for it of course)
- owebmaster 9y ago
  > Something that I found always makes people think is the observation that if everyone that meet is toxic, then they're the toxic one. This is really bad when you are the one believing you are surrounded by toxic people. My solution was to become a digital nomad and now I understand why. Travelling I don't feel like I'm around toxic people and when I feel I move on.
rdtsc 9y ago
You are already a bit better because you started to understand and realize what it is, and now can try to find ways to help. Most people don't realize it and just suffer or end up being alienated because the person acts "crazy". It seems there is new research on it and some treatments are available. How to get the person to accept or seek treatment is the hard part.

brookside 9y ago

Have you always observed this behavior in your wife? And I am curious, what happens when you delicately attempt to discuss this with her.

hie6Rofogo 9y ago
I didn't come to the BPD conclusion until pretty recently. Previously I figured it was the stereotypical situation where the husband is insensitive and cannot communicate what he means. I mean, I am insensitive, I know that. So, it took me quite a while to realize her reactions are not normal. Seeing her reactions to other people, especially her family members was key. I've had discussions previously, in the right moment. She has admitted that she sometimes takes my comments as criticism when they are not intended as such. We did discuss getting couples therapy, which she was willing to try.
- Blackstone4 9y ago
  I was married to someone who I believe has BPD and we went to couples therapy ... be careful... it can and may well be used against you...whilst at the same time not help her condition...someone with BPD typically has many issues on the surface. These tend to consume the therapy sessions. Whilst the deep seated problems go unchecked... I feel like the real issue for someone with BPD is processing incoming messages (verbal/actions etc.). When you're starting position is defensive and highly emotional, it's hard to be rational.... hence why messages are often misinterpreted and why people w/ BPD appear to live in another reality...they need to learn to slow down and use their rational brain to keep their emotions in check... I'm not sure she'll learn this from couples therapy You might find this book helpful: The Chimp Paradox: The Mind Management Program to Help You Achieve Success, Confidence, and Happiness https://www.amazon.com/Chimp-Paradox-Management-Program-Confidence/dp/039916359X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1512172079&sr=8-1&keywords=chimp+mind+management https://www.amazon.com/Chimp-Paradox-Management-Program-Conf...

philwelch 9y ago

As someone who had a close personal relationship with a borderline for years: get out. A divorce will be nasty, particularly with a borderline, but a lifetime spent with such a person will not be a happy one. With any kind of mental health, the person “suffering” from it has to be the one who wants treatment, and with BPD, most of the suffering ends up outsourced to others, which eliminates that motivation. I know this is hard to hear, but part of BPD is an inability to form healthy relationships. The flip side is that it takes two people to maintain an unhealthy relationship. You’re not helping her by staying in this marriage; at best, you’re enabling her and at worst, you’re suffering from her mental illness at least as much as she is.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
jaredhansen 9y ago
This advice is pernicious and self-serving bullshit. You don't know the poster or his/her wife. You don't know the wife. You don't have anywhere near enough information (unless you think a BPD diagnosis or suspected diagnosis is in itself sufficient information, in which case you're contradicted by a very well established line of research going back a number of decades; see links I've posted elsewhere in this thread) to assess the poster's wife's mental state or likelihood of recovery. Your comment completely misunderstands how BPD works and completely misrepresents the likelihood of recovery. I understand that you may need to prove to yourself that you made the right call by cutting off someone with this disorder in the past, and maybe you did -- but that isn't epistemic justification for the very conclusory advice you're offering the poster.
- philwelch 9y ago
  Advice is directional, not absolute. Someone isn’t going to divorce their wife just because someone on HN told them to. They’re going to second-guess whether she has BPD and go through mental gymnastics, possibly for years, to avoid doing that. If I’m going to give someone a nudge, I don’t need to nudge them to do that second guessing. They’re going to do that anyway. I need to nudge them to take the situation seriously and follow the logical consequences that follow if they are married to a borderline. If the wife is the rare borderline who actually cares to get treatment and overcome her BPD, I know that this guy is going to give her that second or third or nth chance because that’s exactly what I would have done in his place.

mcmurdosound123 9y ago

I'm pretty sure my wife has it too. She had a trying childhood and parents divorced. The counselors we have seen are happy to take our money and not look beyond false front she presents to them. They are also keen on validating my feelings instead of believing me that there is something wrong with her. She also cut off ties with family when they did something innocent. She calls her in-laws toxic, and tells our children that. I'm wondering what to do as well, and I don't feel at all hopeful for the future. I wonder if I divorce if my children will develop her same problem.

hie6Rofogo 9y ago
For my wife, I believe childhood events triggered her as well. She grew up in China, not long after the cultural revolution. Her dad was barely home due to traveling for work. Her mother was controlling to an absurd degree. I am concerned about my daughter inheriting the condition. She shows signs of being deathly afraid of being rejected by people. I guess I should study up more and talk to her about it.
kross 9y ago
Stop going to counselors. The standard for counselors is surprisingly low, and many are damaged themselves and bring their own biases into sessions. Research PHDs in your area and talk with a psychotherapist. Go on your own, without your wife and find your bearings. They will help you from there. Don't be afraid to find a different one early if you don't feel they are connecting with you.

jaredhansen 9y ago

>Based on my readings, I understood that most psychiatrists think treatment is unlikely to work. It's very likely your sources are pretty stale. For several decades, yes, the prognosis for BPD was quite poor. But this is no longer true and has not been true really since at least the late 90s. BPD is much, _much_ better understood than it was in the 70s/80s, thanks in large part to the work of Marsha Linehan[0]. Depending on various factors the prognosis can actually be very good, and people can and do get better from even fairly severe BPD. (See e.g. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/209726 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/... ) I've watched this happen with a close family member and I'm happy to provide a bunch more resources etc (email in profile). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsha_M._Linehan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsha_M._Linehan

cryoshon 9y ago
upvoted for referencing linehan-- she is an excellent example of a relentless scientist / clinical practitioner who has absolutely revolutionized her entire specialty and likely saved many thousands of lives (BPD drives people to suicide very regularly) as a result. in short, we need more like her.
- phkahler 9y ago
  >> upvoted for referencing linehan Did you know she had BPD and recovered from it? Yeah, we need more people who have personal experience solving their problems rather than analysts trying to figure them out ;-)

dsego 9y ago

That sounds about right, my brother is diagnosed. He is very abusive, emotional vampire but never sees his mistakes, and always blames other people for everything. Really hard to deal with. There are some books that can help, for example Stop Walking on Eggshells. I found this website useful: http://outofthefog.website/personality-disorders-1/2015/12/6/borderline-personality-disorder-bpd http://outofthefog.website/personality-disorders-1/2015/12/6...

owebmaster 9y ago
Reading your comments, your brother might be right when he thinks you are toxic to him.
- dsego 9y ago
  I'm sure if you heard his side it would look like the whole family are monsters. He's free to live his life and look for happiness were ever he finds it. Nobody stands in his way but himself.
  - owebmaster 9y ago
    Sure, the same way hearing your side it looks like he is a monster. It is difficult to know who is the one with BPD in the history.
    - dsego 9y ago
      I don't really care about what he thinks of me. I am independent, have a job, etc. He hasn't worked a day in his life, our parents are over 60, they can't take care of him forever. He needs help, and I don't know what to do. Any suggestion is received as criticism. He needs to become independent, to live his life, but he is trapped. And kind words, gestures and emotions aren't doing it. His mental health issues manifest as lack of hygiene, insomnia, withdrawing, overeating, preoccupation with interpersonal relationships to the detriment of everything else. The last one can be the daily "who said what to who, and how they said it" (and hurt feelings, showed insensitivity etc.) or e.g. won't think about finding a job until he has a girlfriend (priorities!!!) and achieves a stable relationship (which somehow never happens). How to penetrate and reason with someone who rejects reason and one unwitting remark can negate every sincere effort and set us back by months and years?

mjburgess 9y ago

Treatment is not unlikely to work. It just takes a lot of time, and it requires you find a therapist you wife trusts and who will engage with your wife in the way she needs. At the very least it sounds like your wife has critically low-selfesteem which would be part of BPD. If there is any way at all you can get her in a therapeutic environment, that would be a profoundly important gift to her . The life of a person with BPD is not destined to be a happy one, they're living like a cornered mouse for most of it and are really in harms way. They're likely to keep traumatizing themselves. To have a person who cares to prevent that is the greatest gift a person with BPD can have. My offhand suggestion is that you try therapy for yourself for a session and get some advice from a therapist. Keep moving between them until it's useful. It could be that you find away to have a couples therapy that is ostensibly for you but your wife might open up there.

hie6Rofogo 9y ago
Thank you, I think I should pursue the couples therapy. I'm a little scared of therapy as it seems like there is a lot of "cargo cult" type therapy and I want something that is based on actual science so it has a chance of helping. Seems very challenging to find the right therapist.
- mjburgess 9y ago
  There isnt much of an actual science to base anything on. Therapy works by having another person serve as a kind of mirror. Just like ordinary mirrors allow you to recognise yourself visually, human mirrors allow you to see yourself "emotionally" (in broad terms). We are mostly just awash with emotion and experience -- all of us -- and we only become aware that we are experiencing some emotion (etc.) when we encounter another person who reacts to it. On a day alone we might be very frustrated but we only realise when our frustration causes another to recoil. It is this recoil that provides the "reflection" of what we are feeling that we can see. It is very hard to be aware of one's emotional state, and the capacity is trained and not particularly reliable in healthy people. But present enough to stabilize emotions. A therapist is only a person who serves as a good mirror for your wife. A person who is able to recoil at the things a healthy parent ought recoil at, a person who is able to be warm and accepting at the things a parent ought be accepting of. A therapist that hides behind a chair is useless. You're after someone around whom your wife isnt on-edge, and offers observations and emotive-physical reactions that your wife recognises and trusts. In a sense "that is it". It doesnt matter what superstitons the therapist uses to arrive at their questions and suggestions. By being experienced and empathetic -- and "parental" -- the right person need have no particular theoretical background. It's hard to say how easy it is to distinguish the good from the bad here. I guess you need to trust your intuition about how your wife feels in the situation. You need to have seen a few yourself and be aware that some people simply make you profoundly comfortable because of who they are -- and it is these you are looking for. I am myself incredibly set on-edge by anyone i sense faking any emotion, so I cannot even be near therapists who smile too much (etc.). Fortunately, you do not need to "put up" with being in any sense on-edge. Find one that fits. There is no science of human emotional instinct (yet). Your wife's issues are extremely unique to her, in the sense that they are connected to her particular experiences and ways of thinking. What is needed is an opening up about these, to create a safe environment in which your wife feels able to recognise her self, and to relearn an emotionality (, identity, self-awareness, understanding of consequences, appreciation of the future, understanding that relationships remain constant when people go out of view...) and other things besides. PS. As far as criteria go, I believe years of experience is the main one. While the mechanism of change, I believe, is the interaction between the therapist and patient -- more experienced therapists will be able to spot more subtle problems. Newer ones will be easy for a person with BPD to fool. People with BPD are often, essentially, in a constant state of acting where they are fooling themselves with superstitions about who they are. The therapist needs to be alert to these superstitions being employed as explanations in answers to their questions. Ie., they need to be alert to your wife lying (but a lie she is not herself aware of). By way of example, I observed a therapist once say to a patient that he wouldnt tolerate anyone being different than he was. He made this observation based on the patient wishing to be "understood". The connection was: the patient was misdescribed people "misunderstanding" him to actually their disagreeing with him.. and he couldn't tolerate disagreement. The therapist made this suggestion base on their experience with this not uncommon issue (anger and hostility may often be a product of a fear of difference).

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

throwawayflurb 9y ago

Something that I found always makes people think is the observation that if everyone that meet is toxic, then they're the toxic one. Don't bring this up directly of course. Just talk about someone at work or in the news who always seems to be complaining -- and while you're reading the newspaper or chatting about work. Don't bring it up out of nowhere. (this advice is may be worth what you paid for it of course)

owebmaster 9y ago
> Something that I found always makes people think is the observation that if everyone that meet is toxic, then they're the toxic one. This is really bad when you are the one believing you are surrounded by toxic people. My solution was to become a digital nomad and now I understand why. Travelling I don't feel like I'm around toxic people and when I feel I move on.

rdtsc 9y ago

You are already a bit better because you started to understand and realize what it is, and now can try to find ways to help. Most people don't realize it and just suffer or end up being alienated because the person acts "crazy". It seems there is new research on it and some treatments are available. How to get the person to accept or seek treatment is the hard part.