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Can Trump just pardon him?

jzebedee 9y ago
It's unclear. "Presidents do have broad — but not unlimited — pardoning power." "The framers of the Constitution put the presidential pardoning power into the founding document in order to correct unjust prosecutions or convictions — both of which had occurred frequently in England. At the Constitutional Convention, there was a proposal to exempt treason from the president's pardoning power — the notion being that if a president conspired with subordinates to commit treason, he should not be able to protect himself by pardoning fellow conspirators." [1] [1] https://www.npr.org/2017/07/29/539856280/could-trump-pardon-himself-probably-not https://www.npr.org/2017/07/29/539856280/could-trump-pardon-...
dboreham 9y ago
Supposedly that would lead to Congress taking action (finally).
adventured 9y ago
Yes. That has its own serious fallout, both in terms of prompting a deeper investigation and drawing an intense spotlight, and blowback with voters. Voters are actually paying some attention. They will toss the Republicans out of power. That has happened routinely in the last ~70 years to both sides when they cross various lines or the stench gets too great.
justboxing 9y ago
Trump pardoning Flynn would be a gift to the investigation. > If someone like Flynn or Kushner were preemptively pardoned, he wouldn’t be able to plead the Fifth Amendment if he were called to testify against Trump. The Fifth Amendment protects citizens against self-incrimination. But if someone has been pardoned, they no longer face the threat of prosecution, and so they can’t use a desire to avoid incriminating themselves as an excuse not to answer a question Source: 10 legal experts on why Trump can’t pardon his way out of the Russia investigation => https://www.vox.com/2017/8/29/16211784/flynn-charged-fbi-trump-pardon-mueller-russia https://www.vox.com/2017/8/29/16211784/flynn-charged-fbi-tru...
enraged_camel 9y ago
The pardon has to be accepted, which is akin to saying "yes, I am guilty as hell, and I accept the pardon" and that's something that Flynn may not want to do. My understanding is that it would mean that he could then be compelled to testify and no longer be able to use 5th amendment protections. IANAL though.
g09980 9y ago
IIRC Trump fired Flynn for lying about what may have been the same issue. Edit: https://www.cnbc.com/2017/02/16/trump-no-i-didnt-tell-flynn-to-talk-about-sanctions-with-russia.html https://www.cnbc.com/2017/02/16/trump-no-i-didnt-tell-flynn-...
Larrikin 9y ago
Depends on what, the special counsel has atleast one state's attorney general on their staff for exactly this reason. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/08/31/trump-and-manafort-get-big-reminder-that-pardon-power-does-not-extend-to-state-crimes/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/08/3... 5 years is a pretty short sentence and there were reports of Flynn's son being investigated for crimes as well. This plea deal is certainly just the smallest thing they could charge him with in exchange for his testimony and not hitting him or his family with much more serious charges.
lisper 9y ago
Yes, he can, but he won't, because: 1. Flynn pleaded guilty in part to protect his son, so Trump would have to pardon Flynn's son too to keep Flynn quiet. But Flynn's son hasn't been charged with anything (yet). Trump could issue a blanket pardon for both of them, but that would almost certainly lead to Trump being impeached because that would be such a blatant abuse of power (though in this day and age, who knows?) 2. A presidential pardon is only valid against federal crimes, so it's not a get-out-of-jail-free card. 3. Even if Trump pardoned Flynn, he has almost certainly already provided damning evidence against Trump. Mueller could release that evidence, which is likely sufficiently damning to get Trump impeached.
- enraged_camel 9y ago
  Regarding number 1, what is more important is that a pardon has to be accepted, which requires pleading guilty to wrongdoing and removes 5th amendment protections if the person is called in to testify.
  - lisper 9y ago
    Oh yeah, that too :-)

It's unclear. "Presidents do have broad — but not unlimited — pardoning power." "The framers of the Constitution put the presidential pardoning power into the founding document in order to correct unjust prosecutions or convictions — both of which had occurred frequently in England. At the Constitutional Convention, there was a proposal to exempt treason from the president's pardoning power — the notion being that if a president conspired with subordinates to commit treason, he should not be able to protect himself by pardoning fellow conspirators." [1] [1] https://www.npr.org/2017/07/29/539856280/could-trump-pardon-himself-probably-not https://www.npr.org/2017/07/29/539856280/could-trump-pardon-...

dboreham 9y ago

Supposedly that would lead to Congress taking action (finally).

adventured 9y ago

Yes. That has its own serious fallout, both in terms of prompting a deeper investigation and drawing an intense spotlight, and blowback with voters. Voters are actually paying some attention. They will toss the Republicans out of power. That has happened routinely in the last ~70 years to both sides when they cross various lines or the stench gets too great.

justboxing 9y ago

Trump pardoning Flynn would be a gift to the investigation. > If someone like Flynn or Kushner were preemptively pardoned, he wouldn’t be able to plead the Fifth Amendment if he were called to testify against Trump. The Fifth Amendment protects citizens against self-incrimination. But if someone has been pardoned, they no longer face the threat of prosecution, and so they can’t use a desire to avoid incriminating themselves as an excuse not to answer a question Source: 10 legal experts on why Trump can’t pardon his way out of the Russia investigation => https://www.vox.com/2017/8/29/16211784/flynn-charged-fbi-trump-pardon-mueller-russia https://www.vox.com/2017/8/29/16211784/flynn-charged-fbi-tru...

enraged_camel 9y ago

The pardon has to be accepted, which is akin to saying "yes, I am guilty as hell, and I accept the pardon" and that's something that Flynn may not want to do. My understanding is that it would mean that he could then be compelled to testify and no longer be able to use 5th amendment protections. IANAL though.

g09980 9y ago

IIRC Trump fired Flynn for lying about what may have been the same issue. Edit: https://www.cnbc.com/2017/02/16/trump-no-i-didnt-tell-flynn-to-talk-about-sanctions-with-russia.html https://www.cnbc.com/2017/02/16/trump-no-i-didnt-tell-flynn-...

Larrikin 9y ago

Depends on what, the special counsel has atleast one state's attorney general on their staff for exactly this reason. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/08/31/trump-and-manafort-get-big-reminder-that-pardon-power-does-not-extend-to-state-crimes/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/08/3... 5 years is a pretty short sentence and there were reports of Flynn's son being investigated for crimes as well. This plea deal is certainly just the smallest thing they could charge him with in exchange for his testimony and not hitting him or his family with much more serious charges.

lisper 9y ago

Yes, he can, but he won't, because: 1. Flynn pleaded guilty in part to protect his son, so Trump would have to pardon Flynn's son too to keep Flynn quiet. But Flynn's son hasn't been charged with anything (yet). Trump could issue a blanket pardon for both of them, but that would almost certainly lead to Trump being impeached because that would be such a blatant abuse of power (though in this day and age, who knows?) 2. A presidential pardon is only valid against federal crimes, so it's not a get-out-of-jail-free card. 3. Even if Trump pardoned Flynn, he has almost certainly already provided damning evidence against Trump. Mueller could release that evidence, which is likely sufficiently damning to get Trump impeached.

enraged_camel 9y ago
Regarding number 1, what is more important is that a pardon has to be accepted, which requires pleading guilty to wrongdoing and removes 5th amendment protections if the person is called in to testify.
- lisper 9y ago
  Oh yeah, that too :-)