5 ms·

Alpine is really good. I've been slowly migrating my boxen to it. Just deployed 3 dedis recently running it, a handful of VMs, and I'm installing it on my lapto

Alpine is really good. I've been slowly migrating my boxen to it. Just deployed 3 dedis recently running it, a handful of VMs, and I'm installing it on my laptop before I go for holiday travel. I still have a couple of gripes but they've done a damn good job. Note: I use the vanilla kernel distribution.

oblio 9y ago
Isn't the first thing you do to install GNU coreutils? Busybox is neat, but unusable for day to day usage, IMO.
- Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
  Fuck no, GNU coreutils is awful.
  - rufugee 9y ago
    Care to elaborate?
    - Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
      GNU coreutils and the broader GNU operating system is an extreme exercise in bloated and overengineered software. It's the antithesis of everything I like Alpine for. Give me a POSIX coreutils and I'm happy. Actually using any of GNU's extensions is an antipattern.
      - oblio 9y ago
        I don't really care about anti-patterns, I care about usability. They're usable, full of features I use and have nice, standardized long form flags, especially good for scripts.
        Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
        No, they're especially awful for scripts. The only place where extensions are maybe appropriate is ad-hoc at your shell. Your scripts are non-portable. Suck it up and learn the POSIX flags, they're not difficult. If you can't, then you aren't really in Alpine's target audience anyway.
        imiric 9y ago
        That's a great philosophical standpoint, but unfortunately in the real world BusyBox/musl is just incompatible with some software. I recently had issues getting Node running with nvm (see [this issue][0] and [this one][1]). Sure, there are workarounds, but GNU coreutils is the standard user land toolset for Linux, and it's no surprise alternative tools are less supported overall. I hope this will improve over time, because Alpine is an awesome distro. [0]: https://github.com/creationix/nvm/issues/1102 https://github.com/creationix/nvm/issues/1102 [1]: https://github.com/creationix/nvm/issues/1250 https://github.com/creationix/nvm/issues/1250
        Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
        Then nvm downloads binaries compiled for glibc, not Linux. This is a bug in nvm - not Alpine, not Busybox, not musl, but a bug in nvm. Using tools like nvm is the wrong approach anyway, you should be installing from distro packages - and Alpine supports installing specific versions of a package if you really need that. >GNU coreutils is the standard user land toolset for Linux Bullshit. This is the standard: http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/ http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/
        imiric 9y ago
        > This is a bug in nvm - not Alpine, not Busybox, not musl, but a bug in _nvm_. Why the defensive tone? I never claimed one or the other, but as a user, I would just like to see it fixed. > Using tools like nvm is the wrong approach anyway, you should be installing from distro packages Please don't tell me what I should be installing. I _like_ nvm and similar tools for other languages, and would like to keep using them without my operating system (or anyone else for that matter) dictating what software to use and why. > Bullshit. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html > This is the standard: http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/ http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/ Of what, exactly? Of some Unix interoperability ideal? Sure, it has its place. But I'd argue that improving the user experience is even more important, and when user land tools break because of a choice of OS/toolchain, something is wrong there.
  - pwdisswordfish2 9y ago
    HN mods might call this a "nonsubstantive dismissal". Nevertheless, I agree with the statement wholeheartedly. It is an opinion. And no "substantive proof" is required to support an opinion. Only experience is required. Everyone is free to form their own opinion. How? Maybe something like 1. Try GNU coreutils. 2. Try an alternative such as a BSD project or Plan9. 3. Think. 4. Form opinion. Thus one cannot dismiss alternatives to GNU coreutils without trying them first.
vhodges 9y ago
Does that mean the AG Unix is on hold (or dead?). Btw, not sure if it's related to Alpine or not, but your servers are unreachable for me at the moment ;-)
- Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
  agunix is dead, I killed the server the other day. I never quite accomplished the goals I set out with and had to make too many compromises. I might eventually try again with a different approach or just contribute to Alpine until I run out of gripes.
  - vhodges 9y ago
    Ah, well, understandable. After reading about what it took to just bootstrap, it looks like a colossal amount of work to do a distro. Running Arch at the moment but I am looking at Alpine or maybe one of the BSD's as an alternative.
    - Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
      Well, I got that far, I had a fully bootstrapped distro and was building a whole lot of packages. I just had to compromise on too many of my goals and I felt the distro eventually was no longer distinguished enough from its peers to be worth continuing.
braderhart 9y ago
Aren't you the creator of Sway? I recognize the username. Great work! I have a feeling you'll be the next big WM for Linux Desktop. Nothing compares to i3/Sway with a mechanical keyboard. Even Windows is moving applications to tabbed interfaces: https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/28/16709190/microsoft-windows-10-tabs-file-explorer-sets-feature https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/28/16709190/microsoft-windo...
- Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
  Thanks! I'm glad you like it.

oblio 9y ago

Isn't the first thing you do to install GNU coreutils? Busybox is neat, but unusable for day to day usage, IMO.

Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
Fuck no, GNU coreutils is awful.
- rufugee 9y ago
  Care to elaborate?
  - Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
    GNU coreutils and the broader GNU operating system is an extreme exercise in bloated and overengineered software. It's the antithesis of everything I like Alpine for. Give me a POSIX coreutils and I'm happy. Actually using any of GNU's extensions is an antipattern.
    - oblio 9y ago
      I don't really care about anti-patterns, I care about usability. They're usable, full of features I use and have nice, standardized long form flags, especially good for scripts.
      - Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
        No, they're especially awful for scripts. The only place where extensions are maybe appropriate is ad-hoc at your shell. Your scripts are non-portable. Suck it up and learn the POSIX flags, they're not difficult. If you can't, then you aren't really in Alpine's target audience anyway.
        imiric 9y ago
        That's a great philosophical standpoint, but unfortunately in the real world BusyBox/musl is just incompatible with some software. I recently had issues getting Node running with nvm (see [this issue][0] and [this one][1]). Sure, there are workarounds, but GNU coreutils is the standard user land toolset for Linux, and it's no surprise alternative tools are less supported overall. I hope this will improve over time, because Alpine is an awesome distro. [0]: https://github.com/creationix/nvm/issues/1102 https://github.com/creationix/nvm/issues/1102 [1]: https://github.com/creationix/nvm/issues/1250 https://github.com/creationix/nvm/issues/1250
        Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
        Then nvm downloads binaries compiled for glibc, not Linux. This is a bug in nvm - not Alpine, not Busybox, not musl, but a bug in nvm. Using tools like nvm is the wrong approach anyway, you should be installing from distro packages - and Alpine supports installing specific versions of a package if you really need that. >GNU coreutils is the standard user land toolset for Linux Bullshit. This is the standard: http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/ http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/
        imiric 9y ago
        > This is a bug in nvm - not Alpine, not Busybox, not musl, but a bug in _nvm_. Why the defensive tone? I never claimed one or the other, but as a user, I would just like to see it fixed. > Using tools like nvm is the wrong approach anyway, you should be installing from distro packages Please don't tell me what I should be installing. I _like_ nvm and similar tools for other languages, and would like to keep using them without my operating system (or anyone else for that matter) dictating what software to use and why. > Bullshit. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html > This is the standard: http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/ http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/ Of what, exactly? Of some Unix interoperability ideal? Sure, it has its place. But I'd argue that improving the user experience is even more important, and when user land tools break because of a choice of OS/toolchain, something is wrong there.
- pwdisswordfish2 9y ago
  HN mods might call this a "nonsubstantive dismissal". Nevertheless, I agree with the statement wholeheartedly. It is an opinion. And no "substantive proof" is required to support an opinion. Only experience is required. Everyone is free to form their own opinion. How? Maybe something like 1. Try GNU coreutils. 2. Try an alternative such as a BSD project or Plan9. 3. Think. 4. Form opinion. Thus one cannot dismiss alternatives to GNU coreutils without trying them first.

vhodges 9y ago

Does that mean the AG Unix is on hold (or dead?). Btw, not sure if it's related to Alpine or not, but your servers are unreachable for me at the moment ;-)

Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
agunix is dead, I killed the server the other day. I never quite accomplished the goals I set out with and had to make too many compromises. I might eventually try again with a different approach or just contribute to Alpine until I run out of gripes.
- vhodges 9y ago
  Ah, well, understandable. After reading about what it took to just bootstrap, it looks like a colossal amount of work to do a distro. Running Arch at the moment but I am looking at Alpine or maybe one of the BSD's as an alternative.
  - Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
    Well, I got that far, I had a fully bootstrapped distro and was building a whole lot of packages. I just had to compromise on too many of my goals and I felt the distro eventually was no longer distinguished enough from its peers to be worth continuing.

braderhart 9y ago

Aren't you the creator of Sway? I recognize the username. Great work! I have a feeling you'll be the next big WM for Linux Desktop. Nothing compares to i3/Sway with a mechanical keyboard. Even Windows is moving applications to tabbed interfaces: https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/28/16709190/microsoft-windows-10-tabs-file-explorer-sets-feature https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/28/16709190/microsoft-windo...

Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
Thanks! I'm glad you like it.