7 ms·

Next time I consider a laptop, you made it tot the top of my list, even if it costs more. Hear that, Intel? I will put money where my mouth is. I am not sure I

by 616c 9y ago

Next time I consider a laptop, you made it tot the top of my list, even if it costs more. Hear that, Intel? I will put money where my mouth is. I am not sure I can afford any of these RISC-V chips and they are still alpha quality beyond the Talos, but those of my ilk will do their damndest to make you pay for tone deaf reaction.

srcmap 9y ago
Me too! @jackpot51 system76 folks - Are your systems currently using opensource boot bios? If not, any plan to do so in near future?
- jackpot51 9y ago
  Not currently. I have experimented with coreboot but did not get far yet. We are tied into AMI for most machines right now, and I would love to cut them out and go open source! We may be experimenting with coreboot more in the near future
  - carussell 9y ago
    Would you consider partnering with someone like Dell as a supplier? I've written this elsewhere, but I'll repeat: it seems a shame that folks like System76, Purism, aspiring Kickstarter campaigns et al aren't leveraging the supply chain already in place for Chromebooks. In the case of Purism, for example, x86-64 Chromebooks comparable to Purism's low end models can be had from Dell for 3/4 the asking price of the former. Considering that the driver situation is necessarily a solved problem for Chromebooks, and they're already using coreboot, it seems silly to start a parallel effort to deal in hardware the way System76 and Purism are doing, rather than just approaching Dell about a white label deal to supply you with hardware components that are already known to work.
    - _eht 9y ago
      Alienware went this route and they turned then into mostly generic video card boosted mediocrity. The business model of system76 was what I was personally looking for and I've been very happy with my latest laptop from them. For me personally, the luster would have been lost coming from Dell.
      - carussell 9y ago
        This comment makes no sense.
      - baldfat 9y ago
        > Alienware went this route Alienware was bought by Dell not that they outsourced their hardware.
    - biehl 9y ago
      Dell makes lovely linux-laptops, but I don't think they run coreboot. Partnering with Google for the chromebook supplychain seems like the better theory/plan. A white-label, more configurable, plain ubuntu version of the pixelbook sounds like a dream.
      - carussell 9y ago
        > Dell makes lovely linux-laptops, but I don't think they run coreboot. Dell makes Chromebooks. These Chromebooks run coreboot. Ergo, Dell makes laptops that run coreboot. There's nothing in my comment about building off the back of Dell's existing program to sell Ubuntu machines to customers—a program whose success story is reported to be bizarrely hit-or-miss with respect to driver issues, even. Dell's Chromebooks are a success. They're shipped in large quantities. They have no driver issues. They run coreboot. So my advice is simple: if you're a company trying to sell to folks who want a "Linux laptop", then stop sourcing components/machines from otherwise clueless Wintel vendors and trying to shoehorn a traditional distro onto that. Start with the BOM used in Chromebooks. Approach Dell and say you'd like to place a large order—because that's the business they're in, by the way. Now build your company's products on that platform instead. Substitute "Dell" there with any other competent vendor that has demonstrated their hardware plays well with the FOSS stack powering ChromeOS . > Partnering with Google for the chromebook supplychain seems like the better theory/plan. No, that's an ignorant theory. Google is not known for hardware, and certainly not as a supplier for commodity hardware. Even ignoring all that, the response you should expect from Google in regards to playing along should not be enthusiastic agreement.
        Buttes 9y ago
        This is a great idea, I'd totally buy a "chromebook" with coreboot and Ubuntu.
  - srcmap 9y ago
    FYI, there is a good technical reason in additional to the philosophical one. I used to work on embedded systems where I have full control of uboot. With that, I can easily reserve the section of memory in boot uboot and Linux kernel when the keys logging info (such as FTRACE of ISR, sched switches etc) from kernel are kept. When a kernel panic happens, the system will go thru the warmboot sequence and detected there are logging info in that section of DDR and dump it out before continue to boot. This "postmortem debugging features" make debugging certain category of very difficult bugs (kernel driver panic) much easier. With typical close source x86 bios in Linux laptop, it is very hard to enable this kind of debugging.
dsr_ 9y ago
I've been buying System76 laptops for about ten years now, for work and home. Their customer service is first rate.
- jackpot51 9y ago
  Thanks!
- na85 9y ago
  How's the battery life?
  - jackpot51 9y ago
    Not as good as I want it to be. When we manufacture our laptop chassis here in Denver, Colorado we will have more control of battery size and will always prefer longer battery life
    - JustSomeNobody 9y ago
      Surely it is not just battery size. Do you work with any distros to optimize for battery life?
    - jackhack 9y ago
      Security focused and American manufactured (not just assembled)?? Good tools cost more, and are worth it. Your product just went to the top of my shopping list.
  - wiz21c 9y ago
    More info about this would be nice as it is, IIRC, a pain point for linux... (but I admit I didn't research this subject in recent years)
- cookiecaper 9y ago
  Counterpoint: I bought a System76 laptop roughly eight (?) years ago (Bonobo Pro 17 in.) and I have no plans to buy from them again. My system was delivered with a BIOS issue that made it only boot perhaps 1 out of 30 cycles. Delivered on a Thursday night, after spending a lot of time troubleshooting, I had to wait until their support got in on Monday to get anything done. Then I had to mail it in and wait a long time to get it returned with a reflashed BIOS (I'd be lying if I said I remember exactly how long, just remember it feeling way too long). I explained that I had bought the laptop specifically for on-site work with a client and that I needed a functioning fix or replacement ASAP. They told me they couldn't make anything happen any faster, and even told me that they had no way for me to pay out of my own pocket for faster return shipping, though IMO they should've offered to do this themselves. I did eventually get back a mostly-working system which I still use around the house, though it's had a habit of hard-locking when the GPU is under stress the whole time I've had it. But my experience with Sys76 customer support is the biggest factor in deciding not to buy from them again. Do bear in mind this was several years ago and that it is reported from memory. It is entirely possible they've gotten their act together and/or that I'm misremembering some details, but this was my experience as I recall it.
FullyFunctional 9y ago
? Unless you intend to fab your own RISC-V processor, once they become available, they will most certainly be priced competitively (or they won't sell). The first models will be available in 2018 and more will follow.
- 616c 9y ago
  I thought the Talos is out now? EDIT: Crap, pre-order. https://www.raptorcs.com/content/TL2WK2/intro.html https://www.raptorcs.com/content/TL2WK2/intro.html I have been skimming too light on the market details for that bad boy. Only proves the point that the high-cost might be the price of helping proprietary hardware feel the sting of changing cultural tides.
  - cyphar 9y ago
    Talos II is POWER9. POWER also has an open design, so it's effectively the same from a freedom perspective as RISC-V (with the distinction that you can buy POWER chips today, but you can't buy RISC-V ones).
munin 9y ago
Just don't develop any hardware problems or you'll get stuck in a customer support loop around uninstalling and installing nvidia drivers. I haven't been able to use my oryx for about a year, and each time I ask support (the display doesn't turn on) they just advise removing and re-installing the nvidia drivers.
- jackpot51 9y ago
  Do you have a ticket that I can look at? I don't like to have Oryxen not living to their full potential
- Xeboc 9y ago
  System76 employee here. Sorry to hear about the continued issue with your computer. I've started up the conversation again in the existing ticket. We will get to the bottom of this problem, and get your system working again.
noncoml 9y ago
> Hear that, Intel? You are still buying Intel, so not sure how they will care...
- baldfat 9y ago
  Perhaps I am reading more into this but I think the idea is it will not be an Intel CPU but Power9 which is IBM's architecture with an open license and with a foundation supporting it. https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/04/07/open_power_summit_power9/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/04/07/open_power_summit_p... So IF they had a Power0 chip it wouldn't be Intel. Though I have zero idea how System76 would put Power9 into a workstation laptop but they do put a desktop cpu into their Serval lineup. https://system76.com/laptops/serval https://system76.com/laptops/serval
earenndil 9y ago
Talos is POWER9, not RISC-V. And arguable POWER9 is better than all the RISC-V chips on the market right now.
erikbye 9y ago
> Next time I consider a laptop, you made it tot the top of my list, even if it costs more. I won't, if it means having to run Ubuntu (and derivatives) or Pop. I'd like to run the distro of my choosing, thanks, but no thanks. It will be possible to disable ME on other laptops/desktops as well.
- baldfat 9y ago
  You can run whatever distro you want, and the hardware issues should minimal at most? The nice thing is that the hardware is supported by the kernel and you won't run into a hardware issue like we use to all the time 10 years ago.
  - erikbye 9y ago
    You cannot run whatever distro you want on a System76 if you want ME disabled. > You must run Ubuntu 16.04 LTS, Ubuntu 17.04, Ubuntu 17.10, Pop!_OS 17.10, or an Ubuntu derivative and have the System76 driver installed to receive the latest firmware and disabled ME on laptops
    - Drdrdrq 9y ago
      Does anyone know why that is?
      - erikbye 9y ago
        I'm not sure their motives for this choice, as their means of disabling as much of ME as possible is ME cleaner, which is not tied to distros. I don't see why you can't attempt to do it manually yourself, without the aid of their driver and firmware update tool. Except that you might forfeit any warranties/support. System76, can you clarify? Sadly it's standard to only see official support for Ubuntu or RHEL in the Linux world. Not that I don't understand, it's all very fragmented, and that creates a lot of work as to support multiple distros. People are working on remedies, though.
      - ForHackernews 9y ago

by 616c 9y ago

srcmap 9y ago

Me too! @jackpot51 system76 folks - Are your systems currently using opensource boot bios? If not, any plan to do so in near future?

jackpot51 9y ago
Not currently. I have experimented with coreboot but did not get far yet. We are tied into AMI for most machines right now, and I would love to cut them out and go open source! We may be experimenting with coreboot more in the near future
- carussell 9y ago
  Would you consider partnering with someone like Dell as a supplier? I've written this elsewhere, but I'll repeat: it seems a shame that folks like System76, Purism, aspiring Kickstarter campaigns et al aren't leveraging the supply chain already in place for Chromebooks. In the case of Purism, for example, x86-64 Chromebooks comparable to Purism's low end models can be had from Dell for 3/4 the asking price of the former. Considering that the driver situation is necessarily a solved problem for Chromebooks, and they're already using coreboot, it seems silly to start a parallel effort to deal in hardware the way System76 and Purism are doing, rather than just approaching Dell about a white label deal to supply you with hardware components that are already known to work.
  - _eht 9y ago
    Alienware went this route and they turned then into mostly generic video card boosted mediocrity. The business model of system76 was what I was personally looking for and I've been very happy with my latest laptop from them. For me personally, the luster would have been lost coming from Dell.
    - carussell 9y ago
      This comment makes no sense.
    - baldfat 9y ago
      > Alienware went this route Alienware was bought by Dell not that they outsourced their hardware.
  - biehl 9y ago
    Dell makes lovely linux-laptops, but I don't think they run coreboot. Partnering with Google for the chromebook supplychain seems like the better theory/plan. A white-label, more configurable, plain ubuntu version of the pixelbook sounds like a dream.
    - carussell 9y ago
      > Dell makes lovely linux-laptops, but I don't think they run coreboot. Dell makes Chromebooks. These Chromebooks run coreboot. Ergo, Dell makes laptops that run coreboot. There's nothing in my comment about building off the back of Dell's existing program to sell Ubuntu machines to customers—a program whose success story is reported to be bizarrely hit-or-miss with respect to driver issues, even. Dell's Chromebooks are a success. They're shipped in large quantities. They have no driver issues. They run coreboot. So my advice is simple: if you're a company trying to sell to folks who want a "Linux laptop", then stop sourcing components/machines from otherwise clueless Wintel vendors and trying to shoehorn a traditional distro onto that. Start with the BOM used in Chromebooks. Approach Dell and say you'd like to place a large order—because that's the business they're in, by the way. Now build your company's products on that platform instead. Substitute "Dell" there with any other competent vendor that has demonstrated their hardware plays well with the FOSS stack powering ChromeOS . > Partnering with Google for the chromebook supplychain seems like the better theory/plan. No, that's an ignorant theory. Google is not known for hardware, and certainly not as a supplier for commodity hardware. Even ignoring all that, the response you should expect from Google in regards to playing along should not be enthusiastic agreement.
      - Buttes 9y ago
        This is a great idea, I'd totally buy a "chromebook" with coreboot and Ubuntu.
- srcmap 9y ago
  FYI, there is a good technical reason in additional to the philosophical one. I used to work on embedded systems where I have full control of uboot. With that, I can easily reserve the section of memory in boot uboot and Linux kernel when the keys logging info (such as FTRACE of ISR, sched switches etc) from kernel are kept. When a kernel panic happens, the system will go thru the warmboot sequence and detected there are logging info in that section of DDR and dump it out before continue to boot. This "postmortem debugging features" make debugging certain category of very difficult bugs (kernel driver panic) much easier. With typical close source x86 bios in Linux laptop, it is very hard to enable this kind of debugging.

dsr_ 9y ago

I've been buying System76 laptops for about ten years now, for work and home. Their customer service is first rate.

jackpot51 9y ago
Thanks!
na85 9y ago
How's the battery life?
- jackpot51 9y ago
  Not as good as I want it to be. When we manufacture our laptop chassis here in Denver, Colorado we will have more control of battery size and will always prefer longer battery life
  - JustSomeNobody 9y ago
    Surely it is not just battery size. Do you work with any distros to optimize for battery life?
  - jackhack 9y ago
    Security focused and American manufactured (not just assembled)?? Good tools cost more, and are worth it. Your product just went to the top of my shopping list.
- wiz21c 9y ago
  More info about this would be nice as it is, IIRC, a pain point for linux... (but I admit I didn't research this subject in recent years)
cookiecaper 9y ago
Counterpoint: I bought a System76 laptop roughly eight (?) years ago (Bonobo Pro 17 in.) and I have no plans to buy from them again. My system was delivered with a BIOS issue that made it only boot perhaps 1 out of 30 cycles. Delivered on a Thursday night, after spending a lot of time troubleshooting, I had to wait until their support got in on Monday to get anything done. Then I had to mail it in and wait a long time to get it returned with a reflashed BIOS (I'd be lying if I said I remember exactly how long, just remember it feeling way too long). I explained that I had bought the laptop specifically for on-site work with a client and that I needed a functioning fix or replacement ASAP. They told me they couldn't make anything happen any faster, and even told me that they had no way for me to pay out of my own pocket for faster return shipping, though IMO they should've offered to do this themselves. I did eventually get back a mostly-working system which I still use around the house, though it's had a habit of hard-locking when the GPU is under stress the whole time I've had it. But my experience with Sys76 customer support is the biggest factor in deciding not to buy from them again. Do bear in mind this was several years ago and that it is reported from memory. It is entirely possible they've gotten their act together and/or that I'm misremembering some details, but this was my experience as I recall it.

FullyFunctional 9y ago

? Unless you intend to fab your own RISC-V processor, once they become available, they will most certainly be priced competitively (or they won't sell). The first models will be available in 2018 and more will follow.

616c 9y ago
I thought the Talos is out now? EDIT: Crap, pre-order. https://www.raptorcs.com/content/TL2WK2/intro.html https://www.raptorcs.com/content/TL2WK2/intro.html I have been skimming too light on the market details for that bad boy. Only proves the point that the high-cost might be the price of helping proprietary hardware feel the sting of changing cultural tides.
- cyphar 9y ago
  Talos II is POWER9. POWER also has an open design, so it's effectively the same from a freedom perspective as RISC-V (with the distinction that you can buy POWER chips today, but you can't buy RISC-V ones).

munin 9y ago

Just don't develop any hardware problems or you'll get stuck in a customer support loop around uninstalling and installing nvidia drivers. I haven't been able to use my oryx for about a year, and each time I ask support (the display doesn't turn on) they just advise removing and re-installing the nvidia drivers.

jackpot51 9y ago
Do you have a ticket that I can look at? I don't like to have Oryxen not living to their full potential
Xeboc 9y ago
System76 employee here. Sorry to hear about the continued issue with your computer. I've started up the conversation again in the existing ticket. We will get to the bottom of this problem, and get your system working again.

noncoml 9y ago

> Hear that, Intel? You are still buying Intel, so not sure how they will care...

baldfat 9y ago
Perhaps I am reading more into this but I think the idea is it will not be an Intel CPU but Power9 which is IBM's architecture with an open license and with a foundation supporting it. https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/04/07/open_power_summit_power9/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/04/07/open_power_summit_p... So IF they had a Power0 chip it wouldn't be Intel. Though I have zero idea how System76 would put Power9 into a workstation laptop but they do put a desktop cpu into their Serval lineup. https://system76.com/laptops/serval https://system76.com/laptops/serval

earenndil 9y ago

Talos is POWER9, not RISC-V. And arguable POWER9 is better than all the RISC-V chips on the market right now.

erikbye 9y ago

> Next time I consider a laptop, you made it tot the top of my list, even if it costs more. I won't, if it means having to run Ubuntu (and derivatives) or Pop. I'd like to run the distro of my choosing, thanks, but no thanks. It will be possible to disable ME on other laptops/desktops as well.

baldfat 9y ago
You can run whatever distro you want, and the hardware issues should minimal at most? The nice thing is that the hardware is supported by the kernel and you won't run into a hardware issue like we use to all the time 10 years ago.
- erikbye 9y ago
  You cannot run whatever distro you want on a System76 if you want ME disabled. > You must run Ubuntu 16.04 LTS, Ubuntu 17.04, Ubuntu 17.10, Pop!_OS 17.10, or an Ubuntu derivative and have the System76 driver installed to receive the latest firmware and disabled ME on laptops
  - Drdrdrq 9y ago
    Does anyone know why that is?
    - erikbye 9y ago
      I'm not sure their motives for this choice, as their means of disabling as much of ME as possible is ME cleaner, which is not tied to distros. I don't see why you can't attempt to do it manually yourself, without the aid of their driver and firmware update tool. Except that you might forfeit any warranties/support. System76, can you clarify? Sadly it's standard to only see official support for Ubuntu or RHEL in the Linux world. Not that I don't understand, it's all very fragmented, and that creates a lot of work as to support multiple distros. People are working on remedies, though.
    - ForHackernews 9y ago