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Good. If I have to pay capital gains on normal stocks I don’t see why crypto traders shouldn’t have to also.
by umanwizard 9y ago
Good. If I have to pay capital gains on normal stocks I don’t see why crypto traders shouldn’t have to also.
- relyio 9y agoIn my opinion, your outrage is misplaced. Don't hate the other players, hate the game that coerce you into paying taxes (i.e punish you) because you have partaken in a peaceful and voluntary exchange with another person.
- umanwizard 9y agoBecause I like living in a civilization.
- eternalban 9y agoBecause I like living in a civilization [controlled by Private Finance Oligarchy].
- deadmetheny 9y agoI hear Somalia is looking like a lovely Libertarian paradise these days, if that's what you're after.
- eternalban 9y agoDisingenuous. There are ample examples of robust, thriving, civilizations that had alternative monetary systems before the Private Finance Oligarchy ate the world.
- dsacco 9y agoI'll entertain this. Let's start off with this: can you provide any specific examples of these civilizations? To give you some prep, the next question I'm going to ask is what the quality of life was like for the average individual in those civilizations, including the usual metrics: healthcare, access to food, access to running water, etc. One step further, if you provide answers for these questions, I'm going to happily show you why it's extremely difficult to extract the incentives for developing these quality of life improvements from capitalism without designing an economic system that looks like it. Then I suppose you and I will debate whether or not capitalism is perfect, which will be a red herring, because that was never really the point. Deal?
- logfromblammo 9y agoWithout a duplicate Earth to utilize as a control in any experimental setup, it is very difficult to determine whether any given technology improvement came about because of a specific historic factor, or in spite of that factor. I think you are making a reasonable assumption that theoretical systems that allow for concentration of capital result in greater technological advancement than theoretical systems that tend to diffuse capital. But the real world is complex and messy. Living people sometimes behave in ways that are surprising to the economist. It is very difficult to "design an economic system". You either have to devise an incremental path to it from the old system, or march people to it under the threat of death. If you're really going to ask someone to compare historic civilizations with the modern global civilization we have now, you're probably going to need to make some adjustments in order for that to be a fair comparison, instead of one implicitly biased to your own point of view. I'm not certain it is even possible to do that for a comparison between a pre-industrial civilization and a post-industrial civilization. What we can say for sure is that it hasn't always been this way and therefore it doesn't always need to be as it is now.
- logfromblammo 9y agoAnd yet the tally sticks were still burned.
- searine 9y agoBecause the electricity, roads, laws and communications which support your monopoly money currency need to be funded. If you want to go make a million dollars, more power to you, but you also need to pay your fair share like everyone else.
- repomies6999 9y agoWhat is seen as fair is a very subjective question. I would prefer not calling it "fair share" because taxation is very complex and depends hugely on how good you are at gaming the system.
- matt4077 9y agoWhat's the capital gains tax in the US? I seem to distinctly remember it's far lower than a bricklayer's income tax. So, arguably, taxes on bitcoin speculation are not a "fair share" only in the sense that it's still too low.
- 52-6F-62 9y agoI think it's fair to say that many people lose perspective when it comes to their wallets.
- buttcoinslol 9y agoParaphrasing Upton Sinclair: It's difficult to get a man to understand something when his portfolio value depends on his not understanding it
- lostboys67 9y agoCGT is very high in the USA compared to the UK and the rest of the EU - which discourages investment as opposed to buying safe T Bills or Guilts
- nappy 9y agoso that we can have nice things like roads, a power grid, environmental protections, etc.
- Dangeranger 9y agoIf you would like to make that exchange in person, using a currency of your choosing, then I don't see a problem with your argument. However if you want to use the Internet, which was subsidized by and developed using research by U.S. and E.U. governments then my counter argument would be that you need to pay the toll of the IRS or whatever other government you reside within. If you want to start your own nation somewhere and build your own inter-continental communication network then by all means feel free to fund that effort by whatever you deem necessary to achieve that end. Taxes are needed, however begrudgingly, to fund a government which maintains a civilized and peaceful exchange of commerce. There are no examples I'm aware of where a lawless no-mans-land has resulted in anything more than a region dominated by warlords.
- millzlane 9y agoSerfdom. Be thankful for what the system has provided you by giving us the fruits of your labor.
- Dangeranger 9y agoSelfishness. To exploit the fruits of a system without providing a means to maintain said system.
- matt4077 9y agoIt's not (just) "the fruits of your labor". You are a member of a society, which has invested in your schooling, the infrastructure you use, the police and the military to keep you safe, etc... If you want to opt out, there are a few deserts left with weak enforcement of the rule of law. Good luck.
- CabSauce 9y agoThis is such a tired argument. Do you really want a pay-as-you-go system for the internet or roads or any other public good? I sure don't.
- sempron64 9y ago
- repomies6999 9y agoBecause those who have the power will always tax those who haven't, for the simple reason that it is much easier than gainint the money via voluntary exchange.
- buttcoinslol 9y agoCan you name a nation state/principality/empire that survived on voluntary monetary contributions rather than taxation or plunder?
- matt4077 9y agoI distinctly remember comments like this one being extremely common on HN a year or two ago, and my replies along the line of "no man is an island" or "'Taxation is theft' is like 'Surgery is assault'" quickly turning invisible. I wonder if something has changed for the better, or if I'm misremembering. Edit: Never mind. The Ayn Rand brigade is just getting slower with age and untreated mental conditions.
- dsacco 9y ago> The Ayn Rand brigade is just getting slower with age and untreated mental conditions. Please don't say things like this. It doesn't help.
- bitL 9y agoOK, so anyone who can will do their mining stuff in Switzerland with 0% capital gains taxes.
- umanwizard 9y agoWhat does any of this have to do with mining? Miners would pay income tax, not capital gains...
- lightbyte 9y agoMining? This is about buying bitcoin on an exchange and using it like a security.
- bitL 9y ago"mining stuff" i.e. all owned e-coins. Please don't be so pedantic when you can optimistically derive semantics yourself by just giving a little bit of good will to my statement instead of expecting a text-book definition.
- tehlike 9y agoTechnically, united states still taxes worldwide income. There is some credit, but still...
- tonfa 9y agoCapital gains from active trading is taxed in Switzerland though.
- ravingraven 9y agoBecause currencies are not stocks. Edit: I understand that FX trade is not tax free. What I am saying is that we should tax crypto like we tax (or don't tax, depending on where you live) other currencies because that is what they are.
- umanwizard 9y agoFirst of all, bitcoin is more like gold than a currency. Second, forex traders (and gold owners) have to pay capital gains taxes on any gains. So, what is your point?
- luckydata 9y agoexcept that if someone pulls the plug they disappear while you can still make teeth out of gold :)
- eternalban 9y agoIndeed. Not just a shiny rock, that Au. https://spectrum.ieee.org/biomedical/devices/smart-contact-lenses-and-eye-implants-will-give-doctors-medical-insights https://spectrum.ieee.org/biomedical/devices/smart-contact-l...
- icu 9y agoNot necessarily true... again it depends on the tax rules that apply to you. In the UK you can buy Gold Britannia coins and Sovereigns which is Capital Gains Tax (CGT) exempt because of a loophole where British Legal currency (which the gold coins are) is exempt from CGT.
- umanwizard 9y agoWe are talking about US federal taxes, nothing to do with Britain.
- icu 9y ago
- Akujin 9y agoWhat bothers me about this whole thing is that I never bought it like a stock. I mined it YEARS ago when it was worthless. Now all of a sudden I have to pay tax on something I already own? Seems like the government is double dipping. After all I already paid tax on the hardware, the internet connection, the electricity, and countless other market products that allowed me to mine said coin. I have a couple of choices now. I can either sign up for Coinbase and sell it and kiss 15% of it good bye or I can go on Newegg and buy stuff directly with Bitcoin.... or go to a bitcoin meetup and sell with cash in-person..... or go on vacation in Europe and get Euro and again keep it off the books. Which do you think I'm gonna end up doing? PS: My address has never been tied to an IRL transaction. PPS: God damn it's easy to troll HN. More salt than the dead sea.
- alanpca 9y agoLike a stock, you pay taxes when selling for a profit. You don't owe anything until then.
- bringtheaction 9y agoWell if your intention is to do what you seem to imply maybe stop talking about it?
- Akujin 9y agoMy intention is to HODL and have a discussion. These are all hypotheticals.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- koolba 9y ago> What bothers me about this whole thing is that I never bought it like a stock. I mined it YEARS ago when it was worthless. If you mined gold, planted corn, or raised chickens and then subsequently sold any of them you'd pay taxes on the proceeds as well. > PS: My address has never been tied to an IRL transaction. Short of using a tumbler to anonymize your source bitcoins and fraudulently declaring a different or fake person as the recipient of the purchase, I don't see how this is possible if you're buying something online.