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Your assertion that bitcoin is "a vehicle entirely for speculation" is false. It provides convenient methods for transferring and storing value. Even if it were

Your assertion that bitcoin is "a vehicle entirely for speculation" is false. It provides convenient methods for transferring and storing value. Even if it were merely a vehicle for speculation, that is not the criterion for being a Ponzi scheme. Is gold a Ponzi scheme? ICOs are a different matter, but they shouldn't be lumped in with bitcoin any more than a little league baseball team should be lumped in with the New England Patriots.

kasey_junk 9y ago
I’ve been asking this a lot lately. What is the canonical indicator, other than price, that a Bitcoin bull would point to, that shows it has increased utility this year?
- Frogolocalypse 9y ago
  It has become an increasingly valuable store of value. That's the thing about bitcoin. It is actually money. The thing you're acquiring is money, and the thing you use it for is money. It is 'money' the asset that is being acquired, and its deflationary nature makes it a more valuable 'money' asset to hold than an inflationary one. So its increased utility is the system of 'money' the asset storage itself.
  - kasey_junk 9y ago
    Can I spend it in more places? For more things?
    - Frogolocalypse 9y ago
      I have a bitcoin debit card. I can spend it anywhere I can spend $. The only difference is, the money in my wallet increases in value while it waits there for me to spend it, instead of decreasing in value like $.
      - kasey_junk 9y ago
        And that is a new thing this year? You weren’t able to do this last year?
        Frogolocalypse 9y ago
        They've been available for over a year. I started doing this earlier in the year. Couldn't be happier. Just so you know, I don't see visa / mastercard going anywhere. Until you can use bitcoin using the same paywave tech that credit cards use, the over-the-counter use case of bitcoin will not be realized. The alternative is just too easy. But with a bitcoin debit card, you get the best of both worlds. My money isn't being debased while it sits in my wallet, and I have the freedom to use it when I want. I think it will be several years before the layer-2 tech of bitcoin like lightning allows that type of functionality. The existing system is just too effective. I think it is more likely that lightning will be bootstrapped through organic growth like paying your local dealer than it will be by paying for your groceries.
        kasey_junk 9y ago
        I don’t follow these things closely but remembered debit cards issued as early as 2014. Is the increased utility from more options or ease in opening?
        Frogolocalypse 9y ago
        The increased utility is not having the value of the money in my wallet being debased.
        kasey_junk 9y ago
        That’s just the price argument rephrased. If the price tanks tomorrow this utility is removed.
        9y ago
- 21 9y ago
  Financial markets always price the future utility, not the present one. A bitcoin bull could point out to bitcoin futures on professional financial exchanges as an increased utility, as in now professional money managers can trade bitcoin in a professional way.
  - kasey_junk 9y ago
    That is an excellent example of an indicator. Do any of those exist currently?
    - 21 9y ago
      There are firm promises of them becoming available really soon now (TM). http://www.cmegroup.com/media-room/press-releases/2017/10/31/cme_group_announceslaunchofbitcoinfutures.html http://www.cmegroup.com/media-room/press-releases/2017/10/31... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-29/nasdaq-is-said-to-plan-bitcoin-futures-joining-biggest-rivals https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-29/nasdaq-is...
- cwkoss 9y ago
  Number of user accounts on Coinbase. https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/27/bitcoin-exchange-coinbase-has-more-users-than-stock-brokerage-schwab.html https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/27/bitcoin-exchange-coinbase-ha...
  - kasey_junk 9y ago
    This is another great indicator. The skeptic would suggest it’s just a derivative of the price, but I think the simple fact that Bitcoin is exposed to more people indicates it has more utility so I’m good with this indicator.
    - cwkoss 9y ago
      Aside from price, it's a (very rough) measure of the number of people who would be willing to accept Bitcoin as a form of payment. The 'utility' of Bitcoin is you can pay for things with it, so the number of people who will let you pay for things with it is a reasonable-but-somewhat-lacking way to value the 'fundamentals.'
crucifiction 9y ago
gold is actually used to do things, outside of jewelry its used in various industrial applications (for example, the computer you are using right now). so there is a floor to the value of gold, because its a real commodity. there is no floor to a digital currency with little real world adoption/use.
namlem 9y ago
No, it provides very slow and inconvenient methods for transferring and storing value. Literally its only redeeming quality is that you can use it to pay for drugs on the dark web.
- asciimo 9y ago
  You see no value in sending $1,000,000 across the world in 10 minutes for less that $4? No value in date-stamping documents on the Blockchain, and proving asset ownership? No value in locking your wealth cryptographically among several keys, shared by your family or business partners?

kasey_junk 9y ago

I’ve been asking this a lot lately. What is the canonical indicator, other than price, that a Bitcoin bull would point to, that shows it has increased utility this year?

Frogolocalypse 9y ago
It has become an increasingly valuable store of value. That's the thing about bitcoin. It is actually money. The thing you're acquiring is money, and the thing you use it for is money. It is 'money' the asset that is being acquired, and its deflationary nature makes it a more valuable 'money' asset to hold than an inflationary one. So its increased utility is the system of 'money' the asset storage itself.
- kasey_junk 9y ago
  Can I spend it in more places? For more things?
  - Frogolocalypse 9y ago
    I have a bitcoin debit card. I can spend it anywhere I can spend $. The only difference is, the money in my wallet increases in value while it waits there for me to spend it, instead of decreasing in value like $.
    - kasey_junk 9y ago
      And that is a new thing this year? You weren’t able to do this last year?
      - Frogolocalypse 9y ago
        They've been available for over a year. I started doing this earlier in the year. Couldn't be happier. Just so you know, I don't see visa / mastercard going anywhere. Until you can use bitcoin using the same paywave tech that credit cards use, the over-the-counter use case of bitcoin will not be realized. The alternative is just too easy. But with a bitcoin debit card, you get the best of both worlds. My money isn't being debased while it sits in my wallet, and I have the freedom to use it when I want. I think it will be several years before the layer-2 tech of bitcoin like lightning allows that type of functionality. The existing system is just too effective. I think it is more likely that lightning will be bootstrapped through organic growth like paying your local dealer than it will be by paying for your groceries.
        kasey_junk 9y ago
        I don’t follow these things closely but remembered debit cards issued as early as 2014. Is the increased utility from more options or ease in opening?
        Frogolocalypse 9y ago
        The increased utility is not having the value of the money in my wallet being debased.
        kasey_junk 9y ago
        That’s just the price argument rephrased. If the price tanks tomorrow this utility is removed.
        9y ago
21 9y ago
Financial markets always price the future utility, not the present one. A bitcoin bull could point out to bitcoin futures on professional financial exchanges as an increased utility, as in now professional money managers can trade bitcoin in a professional way.
- kasey_junk 9y ago
  That is an excellent example of an indicator. Do any of those exist currently?
  - 21 9y ago
    There are firm promises of them becoming available really soon now (TM). http://www.cmegroup.com/media-room/press-releases/2017/10/31/cme_group_announceslaunchofbitcoinfutures.html http://www.cmegroup.com/media-room/press-releases/2017/10/31... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-29/nasdaq-is-said-to-plan-bitcoin-futures-joining-biggest-rivals https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-29/nasdaq-is...
cwkoss 9y ago
Number of user accounts on Coinbase. https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/27/bitcoin-exchange-coinbase-has-more-users-than-stock-brokerage-schwab.html https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/27/bitcoin-exchange-coinbase-ha...
- kasey_junk 9y ago
  This is another great indicator. The skeptic would suggest it’s just a derivative of the price, but I think the simple fact that Bitcoin is exposed to more people indicates it has more utility so I’m good with this indicator.
  - cwkoss 9y ago
    Aside from price, it's a (very rough) measure of the number of people who would be willing to accept Bitcoin as a form of payment. The 'utility' of Bitcoin is you can pay for things with it, so the number of people who will let you pay for things with it is a reasonable-but-somewhat-lacking way to value the 'fundamentals.'

crucifiction 9y ago

gold is actually used to do things, outside of jewelry its used in various industrial applications (for example, the computer you are using right now). so there is a floor to the value of gold, because its a real commodity. there is no floor to a digital currency with little real world adoption/use.

namlem 9y ago

No, it provides very slow and inconvenient methods for transferring and storing value. Literally its only redeeming quality is that you can use it to pay for drugs on the dark web.

asciimo 9y ago
You see no value in sending $1,000,000 across the world in 10 minutes for less that $4? No value in date-stamping documents on the Blockchain, and proving asset ownership? No value in locking your wealth cryptographically among several keys, shared by your family or business partners?