9 ms·
> Created 19 November 2001, Last Update 30 August 2011 Looks like this was created right after 9/11. It's understandable why he wrote this. > It's considered
by georgewsinger 9y ago
> Created 19 November 2001, Last Update 30 August 2011
Looks like this was created right after 9/11. It's understandable why he wrote this.
> It's considered bad form in many circles to criticize another culture's values. In addition, the social science literature contains a number of rationalizations for the "honor" mentality. One is that every value system makes sense to the people that hold it. Another is that every value system exists for a reason. Well, of course. The problem is that you can make these assertions about any value system whatsoever. Rape and genocide and embezzlement also exist for a reason, and make sense to people who think a certain way. That doesn't tell us whether the values are morally acceptable or even whether they are beneficial to those who adhere to them...So I regard it as trivially obvious that the "honor" mentality exists for a reason and makes perfect sense to the people that adhere to it. I don't doubt it for a moment. I merely claim that these values debilitate the societies that hold them.
Something this author believes that most people (in our coastal bubbles) don't: that some cultures are better than others. It's astonishing how controversial this position is even 16 years later; however, I think when this article was written it was even more politically incorrect to say than it is now.
- eric-hu 9y ago> Rape and genocide and embezzlement also exist for a reason, and make sense to people who think a certain way. > Something this author believes that most people (in our coastal bubbles) don't: that some cultures are better than others. I think you can ask people in coastal bubbles about the rape and genocide cultures of various wars and embezzlement subcultures of various corporations. My money is on them saying those cultures are inferior.
- ramy_d 9y agoActually i would argue the opposite. Not to the extent of genocide but the lid has really blown on Hollywood's sexual harassment problem (read: rape culture). Let's not forget Uber's contribution there and of course the whole gamer gate scandal which is still fresh in the minds of the people involved in the community. Racism, classism, and authoritarianism's roaring 2017 comeback. Then there's Madoff, Exon (classic) , various kickstarter scams, Nortel (Canada represent! ) etc I mean if you think about it just a bit, there are many examples that would indicate we actually live in those cultures. Sure they might say those cultures are inferior, but let's take a cold hard look here.
- alphaalpha101 9y agoSorry, I have to ask: are you actually saying that the tiny niche problem of Hollywood sexual harassment (which is, remember, a miniscule community in the grand scale of things), sexual harassment at one software company, and a scandal about video game review industry ethics is remotely at the same level as stoning people to death for being raped on a regular basis? Executing people for being gay? Oh well, at least the Saudis aren't setting up kickstarter scams. You can criticise consumerism and sexism and racism all you like, don't let me stop you, but don't for a minute think it's reasonable to suggest that that means that all cultures are equivalently good or bad.
- Chris2048 9y ago> and of course the whole gamer gate scandal What about that? The feminist-frequency videos where reverse dog-whistles; insults directed at the gamer community, but couched in misrepresentations and pseudo-intellectual terminology to dress it up as honest critique. Then the trolling and cyber harassment that was received from some demographics were used to tar any critic with the same "GG-supporter" brush. Not at all similar to physical harassment and rape by powerful celebrities.
- ramy_d 9y agosure
- eric-hu 9y agoOh but I didn't say our society's hands are clean. My money simply goes to the odds of what "cultures" most in ours might find reprehensible. And as for those in our society who do those things? My money is on most people in the home turf saying that's not their culture, that these are bad eggs.
- ramy_d 9y agoThis is a form of Nimby: "well I don't do those things and it is reprehensible that people in my society do!". That's cute and all but what are we doing about that? Look at the Weinstein scandal - that dude was on a 37 year streak. Or Pixar's Lasseter with a history dating back 15 years. NYT quoted Rashida Jones: “There is so much talent at Pixar, and we remain enormous fans of their films,” they continued. “However, it is also a culture where women and people of color do not have an equal creative voice.” https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/21/business/media/john-lasseter-pixar-disney-leave.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/21/business/media/john-lasse... Racism, Sexism. _But not me, not in my backyard, those people exercise reprehensible behaviour! shame on them_. Come on. I'm just saying: we gotta own up a bit, we live in this society too, we also make it what it is and we can all strive to make it better. I don't see bad eggs, I see bad systems that foster bad eggs. my 2c
- int_19h 9y agoIt really depends. I have noticed this same trend recently, whereby things are accepted in other cultures because judging it would be "cultural imperialism". It even got into some previously non-controversial (in liberal circles) topics, like female genital mutilation. Google for "FGM cultural imperialism" for a lot on this.
- corey_moncure 9y agoAny discussion of morality is moot in a society where genital mutilation (of any gender) is tolerated.
- DuskStar 9y agoMost people in the US seem to be far more tolerant of circumcision than FGM. And under many definitions, circumcision qualifies as genital mutilation...
- corey_moncure 9y agoYes, we agree completely!
- smnrchrds 9y agoErgo any discussion of morality is moot in America society? What exactly are we doing here?
- bobthechef 9y agoOfficially, perhaps, but our coastal bubbles clearly believe that current liberal democratic values and attitudes are superior.
- ajmurmann 9y agoAnd yet we are hesitant to push out values on people from other cultures. It's a very different dilemma that I think Houellebecq portrayed fabulously in "Submission". Liberals are eager to defend other cultures whose values could hardly new more opposite. It's fascinating really and a tough position. It's admirable and pathetic at the same time and I'm not sure there is a good answer.
- leohutson 9y agoYou might say that multiculturalism is a cultural value in itself, and perhaps some might value multiculturalism more than the survival of their culture. My view is that syncretic cultures are dominant because they are capable of absorbing other cultures and adapting to change, whereas rigid and intolerant cultures can only last as long as their particular moires are relevant.
- taneq 9y agoAnd in the same vein, Liberals show no hesitation in lambasting other people with markedly different values (such as central/southern U.S.) who they lump in as "the same culture" and so consider a valid target.
- neuralzen 9y agoSam Harris has a great book called "The Moral Landscape" on this very subject, of toxic social values and how morality relates to the purging of such values. There's also a Tedtalk he gives, which essentially explores this idea.
- bryananderson 9y agoSomething this author gets that most people (of all political stripes) don’t: whether a culture is “better” than another is not even a well-formed question. We must ask “better at what?” We must define some criteria to measure, and speak in those terms, not in ill-defined terms like “just better”. The author speaks mostly in terms of specific consequences of different value systems. This is not the same thing as declaring a culture (usually the speaker’s own) to be “better” in some ill-defined way.
- leohutson 9y agoI don't think the author grasps it either, especially when he uses morality as an outcome rather than just another cultural value. Assessing the quality of the outcome requires a cultural perspective itself, and even if from that cultures perspective the outcome is poor, the values that the culture would have to change may be worse. If my culture does not accept that slavery is acceptable, but is aware that it will be wiped out by the cultures that do allow it, and chooses that fate, my culture is not inferior for doing so from my perspective.
- nradov 9y agoIt's pretty easy to objectively measure which cultures are better. In general we can just look at long-term trends in voluntary migration rates by country / state / region (or whatever geographic area aligns with a particular culture). Sure there will be some noise in the data based on natural disasters and legal restrictions but those revealed preferences give a good first approximation.
- tibbetts 9y agoExcept historically migration to the US was driven by free land. And more recently by opportunities for wealth. These might be results of the non-thar culture, but they are confounded by natural resources and people are not clearly expressing a preference for the culture so much as a few correlated material benefits.
- tmnvix 9y agoPeople often move not for cultural reasons, but because of resources. An example would be Nepalese migrant workers moving to Saudi Arabia - they aren't doing that for the culture.
- leohutson 9y agoIt's illogical to make value judgements about cultures, there is no objective way to do it. What makes one culture "better" than another? Survival? Virality? Honor? Piousness? Lawfulness? Every culture values these things differently. Calling it politically correct shows your own failing to comprehend something outside of your own cultural frame of reference. Notably I could make the same point about morality as the author makes about honor, as it is just another social construct. Morality holds individuals back from getting what they want, instead they go around accumulating morality points even when no one powerful is watching. Clearly anyone who respects morality as a cultural value is PC wuss.
- aaron-lebo 9y agoIt's not "illogical" to say that a culture which executes homosexuals is inferior (in that aspect) to ones that don't. You can argue about the standard, but it's straightforward and logical.
- leohutson 9y agoI disagree, it's inferior from your cultural perspective, but some cultures clearly didn't/don't value human life the same way you do. For instance from my perspective a culture that doesn't allow gay marriage is clearly inferior, which is straight forward and logical.
- iamthirsty 9y agoTo play devil's advocate on this subject: I spent a lot of time growing up in the South, and when I talk to a lot of friend's back home about the current climate here (e.g.: transgender bathrooms being added at work) they are disgusted and claim "our" culture is literally enabling mental illness. But the coastal culture I live in now and am originally from doesn't view it that way. I get a lot of these culture-clashes daily and it's a really hard thing to figure out. Mainly because life is truly how you view things, and your worldview builds your reality — but how can one say one worldview is better than another, objectively? Because the observers worldview makes them biased, it's really hard to say.