4 ms·

The Sideways Elevator of the Future Is Here, and It's Wild

52 points by joshwa 9y ago

tristanj 9y ago
Discussion from 4 months ago (248 points) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14935700 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14935700
- jessriedel 9y ago
  Yes, the cautionary top comment by Animats is very important for evaluating the likelihood of this reaching fruition. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14936667 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14936667
EGreg 9y ago
Can someone explain this whole magnet thing? Electromagnetism falls off with the square of the distance and works on really short distances, no? So how can it work to move an elevator all the way across a shaft? And what if it fails?
- achamayou 9y ago
  Presumably much the same way maglev trains work, there’s a rail or multiple rails the cabin is attracting/repulsing, which also acts as a linear motor.
- GoToRO 9y ago
  The shaft is the motor. Huge motor, very expensive.
- mcv 9y ago
  You don't use a single supermagnet at the top of the shaft, you use lots of magnets all along the sides of the shaft. Think maglev. Or maybe railgun, for a slightly less pleasant mental image.
moepstar 9y ago
The structure on Google Maps: https://www.google.com/maps/place/48°10'44.8%22N+8°37'30.7%22E/@48.1788614,8.6257922,523m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d48.179119!4d8.62518?hl=en https://www.google.com/maps/place/48°10'44.8%22N+8°37'30.7%2... Wikipedia-Article (German, has more info): https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aufzugstestturm_(Rottweil) https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aufzugstestturm_(Rottweil) You can also see it from the Autobahn A81, driving to / from Rottweil...
jarkre 9y ago
Video showing them in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdTsbFS4xmI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdTsbFS4xmI.
- FabHK 9y ago
  Fun factoid from the video: skyscrapers are being built so high now that the elevator cable can't support its own weight (let alone the cabin), thus presumably the search for alternatives.
orcasauce 9y ago
Reminds me of the People Movers from Disneyland's Tomorrowland. I guess tomorrow is finally today.
jondubois 9y ago
More moving parts with a much more complex range of motion means it's more prone to failure.
labster 9y ago
> Wonkavator I'm pretty sure the technical term is "turbolift".
- amelius 9y ago
  How about "train"?
  - labster 9y ago
    Most trains I know have a big problem with the vertical, restricted to small slopes.
mcv 9y ago
I work in a building with two cores each with 5 elevator shafts, and two elevators per shaft. Sometimes the top elevator can't go down because the bottom elevator is just below it. Having an elevator able to overtake the other would be very nice. Also, you could use one shaft for going up and another for going down. I definitely see the usefulness here.
- gmueckl 9y ago
  Elevator shafts in buildings take precious floor space on every floor and end up reducing the usable space a lot, especially in higher buildings that need more elevators to get people up and down. It's a bit of a catch-22: the higher you build, the less usable space you get per floor. Having elevator cabins switch shafts reduces the number of shafts required. This is really going to change how skyscrapers are designed.
  - chriswarbo 9y ago
    I've seen the numbers for this a few times, but never any mention of paternoster lifts. I know the traditional design is mostly extinct due to safety concerns, but I've always thought there's potential for e.g. making larger cars (say, big enough for a wheelchair), spacing them out, and having them speed up and slow down between stops, so they can linger for a few seconds rather than having to hop on and off (which I found a little daunting at first ;) ). Has anyone done a floor space vs height comparison of such lifts?
- spuz 9y ago
  I have never used one, in fact only became aware of twin elevators this week from the recent EconTalk episode with Tim Harford. I'm wondering as a user of a twin elevator, how are you even aware that the elevator below is preventing you from descending? The only situation that I can think of where this would happen is if both elevators are taking passengers down to the ground floor and the higher elevator either has to wait for the lower one to fill or empty. Does this result in a noticeable delay? Do you notice that on average delays are actually lower compared to normal single elevators?
DanielBMarkham 9y ago
It'd be interesting to see a large/tall building with a back wall dedicated to an elevator grid. Each tennant, instead of a door to a hallway (or in addition to it) would have an elevator door. Press the button, the lift shows up, and it can take you to any other property on that building. Eventually you could merge this kind of thing with other buildings, forming a kind of grid. Going out for dinner? Ask Alexa for a ride while you're talking in the foyer, 20 seconds later doors open and you're whisked away to a nearby restaurant where all you have to do is exit the lift and walk to your table.
- ams6110 9y ago
  You're still going to need conventional hallway and stairs for fire exit.
yazan94 9y ago
This sounds like some awesome tech, though the paranoid in me fears that in the off chance power goes off, what would keep these mag-lev cabins in place? Maybe someone can chime in on this thought experiment, but how would an architect design this into a new building to take advantage of its full potential? From what I can tell, it seems that the system would need multiple horizontal planes for the elevator to run through as well as 1+ vertical planes. And if this should be able to go horizontally across the floor, then you might still need multiple elevator wells on a floor. With this design, I fail to see how this would be more cost effective than the 40% use of a standard system (in the article, Ctrl-F "40 percent")
- Chris2048 9y ago
  > what would keep these mag-lev cabins in place? I'd give the engineers a bit more credit to think about such a scenario. I guess the real advantage here is you no longer need one lift per shaft - just dedicate a shaft as "up" or "down" and have lift cabins switch as needed.
mc32 9y ago
This could be good for seniors or people with mobility issues, for the rest, this will lead to articles about how lazy people have become and how we must get outside and get fit or cave in under the unrelenting laziness afforded by modernity.

52 points by joshwa 9y ago

Discussion from 4 months ago (248 points) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14935700 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14935700

jessriedel 9y ago
Yes, the cautionary top comment by Animats is very important for evaluating the likelihood of this reaching fruition. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14936667 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14936667

EGreg 9y ago

Can someone explain this whole magnet thing? Electromagnetism falls off with the square of the distance and works on really short distances, no? So how can it work to move an elevator all the way across a shaft? And what if it fails?

achamayou 9y ago
Presumably much the same way maglev trains work, there’s a rail or multiple rails the cabin is attracting/repulsing, which also acts as a linear motor.
GoToRO 9y ago
The shaft is the motor. Huge motor, very expensive.
mcv 9y ago
You don't use a single supermagnet at the top of the shaft, you use lots of magnets all along the sides of the shaft. Think maglev. Or maybe railgun, for a slightly less pleasant mental image.

moepstar 9y ago

The structure on Google Maps: https://www.google.com/maps/place/48°10'44.8%22N+8°37'30.7%22E/@48.1788614,8.6257922,523m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d48.179119!4d8.62518?hl=en https://www.google.com/maps/place/48°10'44.8%22N+8°37'30.7%2... Wikipedia-Article (German, has more info): https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aufzugstestturm_(Rottweil) https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aufzugstestturm_(Rottweil) You can also see it from the Autobahn A81, driving to / from Rottweil...

jarkre 9y ago

Video showing them in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdTsbFS4xmI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdTsbFS4xmI.

FabHK 9y ago
Fun factoid from the video: skyscrapers are being built so high now that the elevator cable can't support its own weight (let alone the cabin), thus presumably the search for alternatives.

orcasauce 9y ago

Reminds me of the People Movers from Disneyland's Tomorrowland. I guess tomorrow is finally today.

jondubois 9y ago

More moving parts with a much more complex range of motion means it's more prone to failure.

labster 9y ago

> Wonkavator I'm pretty sure the technical term is "turbolift".

amelius 9y ago
How about "train"?
- labster 9y ago
  Most trains I know have a big problem with the vertical, restricted to small slopes.

mcv 9y ago

I work in a building with two cores each with 5 elevator shafts, and two elevators per shaft. Sometimes the top elevator can't go down because the bottom elevator is just below it. Having an elevator able to overtake the other would be very nice. Also, you could use one shaft for going up and another for going down. I definitely see the usefulness here.

gmueckl 9y ago
Elevator shafts in buildings take precious floor space on every floor and end up reducing the usable space a lot, especially in higher buildings that need more elevators to get people up and down. It's a bit of a catch-22: the higher you build, the less usable space you get per floor. Having elevator cabins switch shafts reduces the number of shafts required. This is really going to change how skyscrapers are designed.
- chriswarbo 9y ago
  I've seen the numbers for this a few times, but never any mention of paternoster lifts. I know the traditional design is mostly extinct due to safety concerns, but I've always thought there's potential for e.g. making larger cars (say, big enough for a wheelchair), spacing them out, and having them speed up and slow down between stops, so they can linger for a few seconds rather than having to hop on and off (which I found a little daunting at first ;) ). Has anyone done a floor space vs height comparison of such lifts?
spuz 9y ago
I have never used one, in fact only became aware of twin elevators this week from the recent EconTalk episode with Tim Harford. I'm wondering as a user of a twin elevator, how are you even aware that the elevator below is preventing you from descending? The only situation that I can think of where this would happen is if both elevators are taking passengers down to the ground floor and the higher elevator either has to wait for the lower one to fill or empty. Does this result in a noticeable delay? Do you notice that on average delays are actually lower compared to normal single elevators?

DanielBMarkham 9y ago

It'd be interesting to see a large/tall building with a back wall dedicated to an elevator grid. Each tennant, instead of a door to a hallway (or in addition to it) would have an elevator door. Press the button, the lift shows up, and it can take you to any other property on that building. Eventually you could merge this kind of thing with other buildings, forming a kind of grid. Going out for dinner? Ask Alexa for a ride while you're talking in the foyer, 20 seconds later doors open and you're whisked away to a nearby restaurant where all you have to do is exit the lift and walk to your table.

ams6110 9y ago
You're still going to need conventional hallway and stairs for fire exit.

yazan94 9y ago

This sounds like some awesome tech, though the paranoid in me fears that in the off chance power goes off, what would keep these mag-lev cabins in place? Maybe someone can chime in on this thought experiment, but how would an architect design this into a new building to take advantage of its full potential? From what I can tell, it seems that the system would need multiple horizontal planes for the elevator to run through as well as 1+ vertical planes. And if this should be able to go horizontally across the floor, then you might still need multiple elevator wells on a floor. With this design, I fail to see how this would be more cost effective than the 40% use of a standard system (in the article, Ctrl-F "40 percent")

Chris2048 9y ago
> what would keep these mag-lev cabins in place? I'd give the engineers a bit more credit to think about such a scenario. I guess the real advantage here is you no longer need one lift per shaft - just dedicate a shaft as "up" or "down" and have lift cabins switch as needed.

mc32 9y ago

This could be good for seniors or people with mobility issues, for the rest, this will lead to articles about how lazy people have become and how we must get outside and get fit or cave in under the unrelenting laziness afforded by modernity.