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This is good research. But honestly you come off a bit condescending. Should Dr. Lui really know how to handle the situation where an international, billion dol

This is good research. But honestly you come off a bit condescending. Should Dr. Lui really know how to handle the situation where an international, billion dollar company steals his art from a blog he wrote? I was thinking to myself, I have no idea how to get in touch with Netflix. If they did something like that to me, I might go down the same path he did. I’m glad you gave him the information he needs but let’s give him a break.

jonknee 9y ago
On a similar note, should a lowly customer service rep trained to respond to cancellation requests and login troubles be expected to address intellectual property rights?
- jfoutz 9y ago
  Yes. Absolutely. They should have legal’s contact info instantly available. If your cs reps don’t have this, your organization is running a big risk. Consider one party recording laws. Let me refer you to legal should be a first day training thing.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- trcollinson 9y ago
  I worked at a rather well known social media company for a bit. A good portion of our customer service was for password resets or general complaints. But we had well defined copyright escalation path that started with the lowest of the lowly customer service rep and ended with the general counsel. So yes, actually, I do expect that.
- Sidnicious 9y ago
  A customer service rep doesn’t have to have all the answers, but they should be equipped to find them, or at least find a next step (which they did, in this case). The author didn’t handle this optimally and neither did the CSR. Should they need to? I’d prefer to live in a world where each party does their best to approach a happy resolution in spite of mistakes. In this case whoever reads the PR mailbox dropped the ball.
- Someone1234 9y ago
  He asked them for contact information, nothing more, nothing less. Which they were able to provide after a short wait.
- masklinn 9y ago
  > should a lowly customer service rep […] be expected to address intellectual property rights? Address? No. Redirect/escalate to the proper channels? Most definitely.
coherentpony 9y ago
How was it condescending? The parent comment: 1) Apologised upfront for giving bad news; 2) Pointed out the clearly unorthodox nature of contacting the wrong communication channel (tech support for a non-tech support problem); 3) Pointed out the correct communication channel; 4) Provided information of what to send to the channel in item 3); and 5) Gave the address of where to send the claim. Can you tell me which part was condescending? As far as I see it, the parent commenter when above and beyond; they went out of their way to help.
- romwell 9y ago
  >How was it condescending? The 2nd sentence. "Seriously, ...?" Specifically, re: 2), the way that was pointed out was condescending, as is your implication that contacting support - which is one of the few publicly visible contact points - is "clearly" "unorthodox".
- johnhenry 9y ago
  The "Seriously, calling the tech support line for a copyright infringement?" parts sounds like it could be calling out the author for doing something you feel should have been the obviously wrong to them. I can't argue against having that part in there -- I wasn't personally offended I, and it's important to give what you write your own voice -- but it is good to know the kind of reactions that your writing will illicit. (Just a side story -- I once posted a comment on a forum that was entirely meant to be sarcastic. Someone missed my sarcasm and responded with what turned out to be valuable information. Since then, I've tried my best to strip anything that might be unnecessarily negative out of my comments, but I'm sure stuff slips through....)
  - zamber 9y ago
    Funny, I often do ignore sarcasm if it serves no useful purpose. People sometimes get offended by answers they get or are just dumbfounded. Personally, I'm more often than not irritated when someone uses it as it tends to derail discussions. This thread is a nice example ;).
ChuckMcM 9y ago
"Should Dr. Lui really know how to handle the situation ..." Yes he should. This [1] is literally the second link to the Google search "what do I do if someone steals my photograph" and it has a nice check box of things to do which includes this step: Do some research Find out the infringing person’s name as well as their contact information. This information is often available in the website’s “About Us” section. Use a website such as WhoIsHostingThis.com to learn the website’s ISP. This information may be necessary later Typing "Netflix General Counsel" into Google gives you the address of Dave Hyman as the first link. If you go to Gough Lui's website (http://goughlui.com/about-me-a-short-bio/publications-and-appearances/ http://goughlui.com/about-me-a-short-bio/publications-and-ap...) he is clearly fairly internet aware and understands how to use search engines. Based on that I think it is well within the GP's expectation that Dr. Lui should be able to figure that out and send a letter to Netflix demanding either they stop shipping their product or retroactively license his imagery for $<x> where he might want to consult with a Photography Agent to understand what size 'x' might represent. [1] https://www.whoishostingthis.com/blog/2016/01/27/images-stolen/ https://www.whoishostingthis.com/blog/2016/01/27/images-stol...
- mherdeg 9y ago
  Something like 1-5% of the news.ycombinator front page is customer service escalations. I don't think it's totally crazy to write a blog post & publicize it on social media as an alternative to the traditional executive-email-carpet-bomb. It's not necessarily the best strategy but it's certainly not the worst.
  - ChuckMcM 9y ago
    I completely agree with that, and it isn't crazy to write a blog post about it. That said, a blog post that had his written letter to the general counsel and Netflix's unsatisfactory response to that, would seem to merit escalation. Dr. Lui seems to have made a good start but it is early days yet it seems to me.
- trcollinson 9y ago
  Great link! In fact according to this Dr. Lui actually did all of the right things. Let’s recap: The link says “make a copy of the infringed work.” It seems from this blog post and what he sent to the customer service and PR link he certainly did that. “Determine that the use was actually theft.” Again I think Dr. Lui did that as well. It seems he has at least a basic understanding of copyright law. “Do some research.” Well he has a hard time finding the corporate information for Netflix, or even a phone number. In his post he points this out. So as a means to find that information he did contact customer service. I guess he could have contacted their isp ;) which is another suggestion that your link gives. But I’m not sure he would have found any additional help by doing so. My point is two fold. First, your helpful checklist isn’t actually that helpful in this case. Second, he actually followed all of those steps. I guess he could have googled for Netflix corporate. This would have shown him officers and directors. Whether that would be useful is hard to tell. It’s also important to remember that General Counsel is an American term. It does not always translate outside of the US.
amelius 9y ago
> I’m glad you gave him the information he needs He didn't. He posted it on HN, which is clearly the wrong path.
Cthulhu_ 9y ago
> Should Dr. Lui really know how to handle the situation where an international, billion dollar company steals his art from a blog he wrote? Yes, he obviously cares enough to write a big blog post; he shouldn't have done that, instead he should've gotten a solicitor and gone through the proper legal channels. If he's lucky he'd get a regular one-time payment for use of the pictures. If he's really lucky those would end up a bit higher than the cost for the legal procedures.
- varjag 9y ago
  OK let's say you are a private person in the USA and want a solicitor for legal action against Australian company. Where would you even start? How much is that going to cost you? How is that more reasonable than leveraging social media?
  - briandear 9y ago
    Social media can’t file a lawsuit and a lawsuit is how you solve these issues. You have to prove infringement, you have to present evidence. You don’t “try” your case on the phone with Netflix. You file a lawsuit, you wait for an answer and then typically you settle out of court. Copyright infringement that is easily proven against a company like Netflix would be a slam dunk case — there would be attorneys that would take that on a contingency basis because it would be so easy: likely two or three letters sent and a stop by the courthouse to file the lawsuit — then a settlement offer of $5000 or so, with $1800 going to the attorney for barely 2 hours work.
    - varjag 9y ago
      The part I highlighted is the copyright owner is in Australia and the company is in the USA, "just file a lawsuit" isn't as simple suddenly.
  - DanBC 9y ago
    You don't start with a lawyer. You start with a letter before action, which sets out what they've done wrong and what you want them to do about it. This is very simple. There are plenty of example online. It would be roughly "I created, and own, these images. You've used them without permission, for a commercial use. You understand the importance of IP and copyright, and you defend your own rights. I'd like you to buy a licence at my standard rate of $X, plus a Y% uplift for commercial use by an organisation that should know better. I expect payment within 28 days." When you're interacting with big corporations you need to speak their language. We see this in claims of copyright infringement, but also in open source projects that don't get donations from big corps - because they don't offer the "order, invoice, payment" cycle that corporations expect.

jonknee 9y ago

On a similar note, should a lowly customer service rep trained to respond to cancellation requests and login troubles be expected to address intellectual property rights?

jfoutz 9y ago
Yes. Absolutely. They should have legal’s contact info instantly available. If your cs reps don’t have this, your organization is running a big risk. Consider one party recording laws. Let me refer you to legal should be a first day training thing.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
trcollinson 9y ago
I worked at a rather well known social media company for a bit. A good portion of our customer service was for password resets or general complaints. But we had well defined copyright escalation path that started with the lowest of the lowly customer service rep and ended with the general counsel. So yes, actually, I do expect that.
Sidnicious 9y ago
A customer service rep doesn’t have to have all the answers, but they should be equipped to find them, or at least find a next step (which they did, in this case). The author didn’t handle this optimally and neither did the CSR. Should they need to? I’d prefer to live in a world where each party does their best to approach a happy resolution in spite of mistakes. In this case whoever reads the PR mailbox dropped the ball.
Someone1234 9y ago
He asked them for contact information, nothing more, nothing less. Which they were able to provide after a short wait.
masklinn 9y ago
> should a lowly customer service rep […] be expected to address intellectual property rights? Address? No. Redirect/escalate to the proper channels? Most definitely.

coherentpony 9y ago

How was it condescending? The parent comment: 1) Apologised upfront for giving bad news; 2) Pointed out the clearly unorthodox nature of contacting the wrong communication channel (tech support for a non-tech support problem); 3) Pointed out the correct communication channel; 4) Provided information of what to send to the channel in item 3); and 5) Gave the address of where to send the claim. Can you tell me which part was condescending? As far as I see it, the parent commenter when above and beyond; they went out of their way to help.

romwell 9y ago
>How was it condescending? The 2nd sentence. "Seriously, ...?" Specifically, re: 2), the way that was pointed out was condescending, as is your implication that contacting support - which is one of the few publicly visible contact points - is "clearly" "unorthodox".
johnhenry 9y ago
The "Seriously, calling the tech support line for a copyright infringement?" parts sounds like it could be calling out the author for doing something you feel should have been the obviously wrong to them. I can't argue against having that part in there -- I wasn't personally offended I, and it's important to give what you write your own voice -- but it is good to know the kind of reactions that your writing will illicit. (Just a side story -- I once posted a comment on a forum that was entirely meant to be sarcastic. Someone missed my sarcasm and responded with what turned out to be valuable information. Since then, I've tried my best to strip anything that might be unnecessarily negative out of my comments, but I'm sure stuff slips through....)
- zamber 9y ago
  Funny, I often do ignore sarcasm if it serves no useful purpose. People sometimes get offended by answers they get or are just dumbfounded. Personally, I'm more often than not irritated when someone uses it as it tends to derail discussions. This thread is a nice example ;).

ChuckMcM 9y ago

"Should Dr. Lui really know how to handle the situation ..." Yes he should. This [1] is literally the second link to the Google search "what do I do if someone steals my photograph" and it has a nice check box of things to do which includes this step: Do some research Find out the infringing person’s name as well as their contact information. This information is often available in the website’s “About Us” section. Use a website such as WhoIsHostingThis.com to learn the website’s ISP. This information may be necessary later Typing "Netflix General Counsel" into Google gives you the address of Dave Hyman as the first link. If you go to Gough Lui's website (http://goughlui.com/about-me-a-short-bio/publications-and-appearances/ http://goughlui.com/about-me-a-short-bio/publications-and-ap...) he is clearly fairly internet aware and understands how to use search engines. Based on that I think it is well within the GP's expectation that Dr. Lui should be able to figure that out and send a letter to Netflix demanding either they stop shipping their product or retroactively license his imagery for $<x> where he might want to consult with a Photography Agent to understand what size 'x' might represent. [1] https://www.whoishostingthis.com/blog/2016/01/27/images-stolen/ https://www.whoishostingthis.com/blog/2016/01/27/images-stol...

mherdeg 9y ago
Something like 1-5% of the news.ycombinator front page is customer service escalations. I don't think it's totally crazy to write a blog post & publicize it on social media as an alternative to the traditional executive-email-carpet-bomb. It's not necessarily the best strategy but it's certainly not the worst.
- ChuckMcM 9y ago
  I completely agree with that, and it isn't crazy to write a blog post about it. That said, a blog post that had his written letter to the general counsel and Netflix's unsatisfactory response to that, would seem to merit escalation. Dr. Lui seems to have made a good start but it is early days yet it seems to me.
trcollinson 9y ago
Great link! In fact according to this Dr. Lui actually did all of the right things. Let’s recap: The link says “make a copy of the infringed work.” It seems from this blog post and what he sent to the customer service and PR link he certainly did that. “Determine that the use was actually theft.” Again I think Dr. Lui did that as well. It seems he has at least a basic understanding of copyright law. “Do some research.” Well he has a hard time finding the corporate information for Netflix, or even a phone number. In his post he points this out. So as a means to find that information he did contact customer service. I guess he could have contacted their isp ;) which is another suggestion that your link gives. But I’m not sure he would have found any additional help by doing so. My point is two fold. First, your helpful checklist isn’t actually that helpful in this case. Second, he actually followed all of those steps. I guess he could have googled for Netflix corporate. This would have shown him officers and directors. Whether that would be useful is hard to tell. It’s also important to remember that General Counsel is an American term. It does not always translate outside of the US.

amelius 9y ago

> I’m glad you gave him the information he needs He didn't. He posted it on HN, which is clearly the wrong path.

Cthulhu_ 9y ago

> Should Dr. Lui really know how to handle the situation where an international, billion dollar company steals his art from a blog he wrote? Yes, he obviously cares enough to write a big blog post; he shouldn't have done that, instead he should've gotten a solicitor and gone through the proper legal channels. If he's lucky he'd get a regular one-time payment for use of the pictures. If he's really lucky those would end up a bit higher than the cost for the legal procedures.

varjag 9y ago
OK let's say you are a private person in the USA and want a solicitor for legal action against Australian company. Where would you even start? How much is that going to cost you? How is that more reasonable than leveraging social media?
- briandear 9y ago
  Social media can’t file a lawsuit and a lawsuit is how you solve these issues. You have to prove infringement, you have to present evidence. You don’t “try” your case on the phone with Netflix. You file a lawsuit, you wait for an answer and then typically you settle out of court. Copyright infringement that is easily proven against a company like Netflix would be a slam dunk case — there would be attorneys that would take that on a contingency basis because it would be so easy: likely two or three letters sent and a stop by the courthouse to file the lawsuit — then a settlement offer of $5000 or so, with $1800 going to the attorney for barely 2 hours work.
  - varjag 9y ago
    The part I highlighted is the copyright owner is in Australia and the company is in the USA, "just file a lawsuit" isn't as simple suddenly.
- DanBC 9y ago
  You don't start with a lawyer. You start with a letter before action, which sets out what they've done wrong and what you want them to do about it. This is very simple. There are plenty of example online. It would be roughly "I created, and own, these images. You've used them without permission, for a commercial use. You understand the importance of IP and copyright, and you defend your own rights. I'd like you to buy a licence at my standard rate of $X, plus a Y% uplift for commercial use by an organisation that should know better. I expect payment within 28 days." When you're interacting with big corporations you need to speak their language. We see this in claims of copyright infringement, but also in open source projects that don't get donations from big corps - because they don't offer the "order, invoice, payment" cycle that corporations expect.