4 ms·

It's not acceptable to punish today's men for what men of past got away with. That's vendetta, blood feud, primitive. What I watch happening is lots of decisi

by gkya 9y ago

It's not acceptable to punish today's men for what men of past got away with. That's vendetta, blood feud, primitive. What I watch happening is lots of decisions happening based on nothing. That all or most the particular men accused at the moment are actually guilty is of no interest to me. But the way we decide on anecdotes and stories is. When we decide before the courts, we commit irreversible damage. If we say once Joe Person is a molester or a rapist or a paedophile, and then he's proven innocent, it's basically impossible to find every single person who has read the wrong accusations and convince them otherwise. Also, it's not only the bar that is lowering, the definition of what's normal advances and what's molesting is changing. In not so distant past invasive behaviour of men were even expected in some circumstances. Good that we do away with these problematic behaviours and protect people from unwanted experiences, but that in no way legitimises leaving people defenceless in front of slander.

MBCook 9y ago
Were not punishing today’s men for what yesterday’s men did. We’re punishing today’s men for what today’s men were still doing. And what yesterday’s men continued to do into today.
- gkya 9y ago
  The punishment is happening before the punished is deemed guilty.
  - MBCook 9y ago
    There is no LEGAL punishment happening. It’s all social. People can behave how they wish, rightly or wrongly. There isn’t much of a way of stopping at. You could always try suing for libel/slander but even if you win everyone’s going to remember the lie. A big part of the problem is there are so many people with a lot of credibility making these accusations.
    - gkya 9y ago
      First of all I'm not questioning the present accusations. I don't even follow them that closely, to be honest. And, I was talking about the social punishment anyways. People can behave how they wish, but that does not mean they should be pushed in a wrong direction by the media and by the accusations before there's a court decision or very strong evidence (like a cam recording, a photo, etc.). It seems to me that you're trying to not understand me, so, my participation in this thread ends here.
      - MBCook 9y ago
        I understand what you’re saying. I simply don’t see another way. I get you’re concerned that if someone were to be given an accusation they could lose their career and then we could find out later that it was all fake. Nothing legal went down, society simply decided to shun them. Outside of making it illegal to publish any kind of accusation in less it has been proven in a court of law… I don’t see how we could avoid people deciding to shun the accused. And maybe that’s fair given the number of women who have had their career is ruined because they chose not to work day in and day out with someone who harassed and/or raped them. Who had to leave the workforce instead, or take another job and start at the bottom of the ladder again. There’s no good solutions to ANY of this. It’s a giant mess. We’ll just have to see how it society sorts it out. In the end the long victimized group has gotten some temporary power. That seems like a step forward even if it raises the possibility of false accusations a small amount.
s73ver_ 9y ago
"It's not acceptable to punish today's men for what men of past got away with. " The only men who are being punished are those who actually engaged in that behavior. I dare say that it is acceptable to punish them. "But the way we decide on anecdotes and stories is." We're not; and we're not actually sending anyone to jail based on just that. The accusations that have been publicized have been vetted, and they have been found to be quite likely true. Keep in mind that, for most of these accusations, there wouldn't be much, if any physical evidence. If I force a woman to kiss me, or grope without consent, there's not going to be any evidence of that. If I ask a woman if I can masturbate in front of her, it's highly unlikely that there would be a recording, or that she would take my semen with her. "Also, it's not only the bar that is lowering, the definition of what's normal advances and what's molesting is changing." No. What's changing is that people feel stronger and more able to stand up for themselves and come out with what happened. The behavior was never really acceptable; it's that women didn't feel strong enough to come forward and say that.
- gkya 9y ago
  First of all, punishment is two-fold: the formal punishment the court orders; and the informal one: how the community receives you after what you've done is known. I'm mostly concerned about the second. Maybe I'm not being successful at making that obvious. How a court decides is out of the scope of my argument. How the public decides is. And what I say is that ideally the precautions should be taken so that the court is first to decide. On the last paragraph, I do agree you, and don't see why it should negate my statement that you've quoted. I'm on my twenties, so maybe I don't know enough, but how people flirt is definitely changing, and what is acceptable does also change too (interpreting "acceptable" not as "moral" but as "not frowned upon").
  - MBCook 9y ago
    Something to ensure that courts were the first to decide would, in the current situation, only benefit the perpetrators. Does a very long history of courts not being willing to take this seriously or listen to the evidence, or problems with short statute of limitations meaning that it’s very hard to get a conviction if a woman waited before making an accusation. In abstract I think it’s a understandable/useful concept but in this particular situation I think it would only benefit the side that needs help the least (due to historical factors/biases).

by gkya 9y ago

MBCook 9y ago

Were not punishing today’s men for what yesterday’s men did. We’re punishing today’s men for what today’s men were still doing. And what yesterday’s men continued to do into today.

gkya 9y ago
The punishment is happening before the punished is deemed guilty.
- MBCook 9y ago
  There is no LEGAL punishment happening. It’s all social. People can behave how they wish, rightly or wrongly. There isn’t much of a way of stopping at. You could always try suing for libel/slander but even if you win everyone’s going to remember the lie. A big part of the problem is there are so many people with a lot of credibility making these accusations.
  - gkya 9y ago
    First of all I'm not questioning the present accusations. I don't even follow them that closely, to be honest. And, I was talking about the social punishment anyways. People can behave how they wish, but that does not mean they should be pushed in a wrong direction by the media and by the accusations before there's a court decision or very strong evidence (like a cam recording, a photo, etc.). It seems to me that you're trying to not understand me, so, my participation in this thread ends here.
    - MBCook 9y ago
      I understand what you’re saying. I simply don’t see another way. I get you’re concerned that if someone were to be given an accusation they could lose their career and then we could find out later that it was all fake. Nothing legal went down, society simply decided to shun them. Outside of making it illegal to publish any kind of accusation in less it has been proven in a court of law… I don’t see how we could avoid people deciding to shun the accused. And maybe that’s fair given the number of women who have had their career is ruined because they chose not to work day in and day out with someone who harassed and/or raped them. Who had to leave the workforce instead, or take another job and start at the bottom of the ladder again. There’s no good solutions to ANY of this. It’s a giant mess. We’ll just have to see how it society sorts it out. In the end the long victimized group has gotten some temporary power. That seems like a step forward even if it raises the possibility of false accusations a small amount.

s73ver_ 9y ago

"It's not acceptable to punish today's men for what men of past got away with. " The only men who are being punished are those who actually engaged in that behavior. I dare say that it is acceptable to punish them. "But the way we decide on anecdotes and stories is." We're not; and we're not actually sending anyone to jail based on just that. The accusations that have been publicized have been vetted, and they have been found to be quite likely true. Keep in mind that, for most of these accusations, there wouldn't be much, if any physical evidence. If I force a woman to kiss me, or grope without consent, there's not going to be any evidence of that. If I ask a woman if I can masturbate in front of her, it's highly unlikely that there would be a recording, or that she would take my semen with her. "Also, it's not only the bar that is lowering, the definition of what's normal advances and what's molesting is changing." No. What's changing is that people feel stronger and more able to stand up for themselves and come out with what happened. The behavior was never really acceptable; it's that women didn't feel strong enough to come forward and say that.

gkya 9y ago
First of all, punishment is two-fold: the formal punishment the court orders; and the informal one: how the community receives you after what you've done is known. I'm mostly concerned about the second. Maybe I'm not being successful at making that obvious. How a court decides is out of the scope of my argument. How the public decides is. And what I say is that ideally the precautions should be taken so that the court is first to decide. On the last paragraph, I do agree you, and don't see why it should negate my statement that you've quoted. I'm on my twenties, so maybe I don't know enough, but how people flirt is definitely changing, and what is acceptable does also change too (interpreting "acceptable" not as "moral" but as "not frowned upon").
- MBCook 9y ago
  Something to ensure that courts were the first to decide would, in the current situation, only benefit the perpetrators. Does a very long history of courts not being willing to take this seriously or listen to the evidence, or problems with short statute of limitations meaning that it’s very hard to get a conviction if a woman waited before making an accusation. In abstract I think it’s a understandable/useful concept but in this particular situation I think it would only benefit the side that needs help the least (due to historical factors/biases).