8 ms·

The cases involving intimate/sexual relations (consensual or not) are really difficult to address, and the general approach we have as the (at least nominally)

by gkya 9y ago

The cases involving intimate/sexual relations (consensual or not) are really difficult to address, and the general approach we have as the (at least nominally) secular and democratic part of the world is just crazy. Probably most allegations in most cases are true, but as it is now any male is quite open to the abuse of the general stance of the society and the law. Even being accused of something can easily ruin one's life, despite the "innocent until proven guilty" principle. If it's allowed to weaponise slander so easily, it actually hurts also whom suffer from sexual violence, reducing the credibility of their claims when they try to come out and pursue justice.

MBCook 9y ago
The problem is the bar has been way too high until now. “He’s important/beloved/whatever, he wouldn’t do that. It’s just your word against his”. And a lot of men escaped a LOT of charges because of that. I think we’re still pretty far from the pendulum going too extreme. We’ll have to figure out the balance. But what’s happening right now still seems pretty healthy. The fact that so many stories can be found so easily and corroborated shows what has been waiting in the wings.
- gkya 9y ago
  It's not acceptable to punish today's men for what men of past got away with. That's vendetta, blood feud, primitive. What I watch happening is lots of decisions happening based on nothing. That all or most the particular men accused at the moment are actually guilty is of no interest to me. But the way we decide on anecdotes and stories is. When we decide before the courts, we commit irreversible damage. If we say once Joe Person is a molester or a rapist or a paedophile, and then he's proven innocent, it's basically impossible to find every single person who has read the wrong accusations and convince them otherwise. Also, it's not only the bar that is lowering, the definition of what's normal advances and what's molesting is changing. In not so distant past invasive behaviour of men were even expected in some circumstances. Good that we do away with these problematic behaviours and protect people from unwanted experiences, but that in no way legitimises leaving people defenceless in front of slander.
  - MBCook 9y ago
    Were not punishing today’s men for what yesterday’s men did. We’re punishing today’s men for what today’s men were still doing. And what yesterday’s men continued to do into today.
    - gkya 9y ago
      The punishment is happening before the punished is deemed guilty.
      - MBCook 9y ago
        There is no LEGAL punishment happening. It’s all social. People can behave how they wish, rightly or wrongly. There isn’t much of a way of stopping at. You could always try suing for libel/slander but even if you win everyone’s going to remember the lie. A big part of the problem is there are so many people with a lot of credibility making these accusations.
        gkya 9y ago
        First of all I'm not questioning the present accusations. I don't even follow them that closely, to be honest. And, I was talking about the social punishment anyways. People can behave how they wish, but that does not mean they should be pushed in a wrong direction by the media and by the accusations before there's a court decision or very strong evidence (like a cam recording, a photo, etc.). It seems to me that you're trying to not understand me, so, my participation in this thread ends here.
        MBCook 9y ago
        I understand what you’re saying. I simply don’t see another way. I get you’re concerned that if someone were to be given an accusation they could lose their career and then we could find out later that it was all fake. Nothing legal went down, society simply decided to shun them. Outside of making it illegal to publish any kind of accusation in less it has been proven in a court of law… I don’t see how we could avoid people deciding to shun the accused. And maybe that’s fair given the number of women who have had their career is ruined because they chose not to work day in and day out with someone who harassed and/or raped them. Who had to leave the workforce instead, or take another job and start at the bottom of the ladder again. There’s no good solutions to ANY of this. It’s a giant mess. We’ll just have to see how it society sorts it out. In the end the long victimized group has gotten some temporary power. That seems like a step forward even if it raises the possibility of false accusations a small amount.
- jrumbut 9y ago
  I hate to get into this topic on the internet, but I think you're exactly right MBCook. This has been horrifyingly common and we are still a long way from justice. Stories like this show the dedication that has gone into avoiding a "witch hunt" scenario (maybe even at the expense of victims without strong corroborating evidence). There's just so much low hanging (and very rotten) fruit.
- belorn 9y ago
  Define the bar then, and make it a law. The beauty of laws is that they must be general and not arbitrary enforced. If create a law with a lower bar then society will also have to accept the addition abuse, and that is what society should look at when figuring out the balance. The bar right now is extrajudicial punishment through trial by media that get arbitrary enforced by which ever journalist that decide if a story is believable or not. In this case the journalist of WaPo made the right judgment call, but is that the role of journalists in 2017? Extrajudicial punishment is not a viable solution to social problems, and has a very long history of causing harm to individuals and society. Today its a rule rather than exception that the accused get death threats based on this kind of news articles, including targeting of the accused family and children. That is how far the pendulum has swung. I would last add that here in Sweden there is two crimes that have very similar clearing rates. Sexual violence and violence. Taken together everything from sexual harassment to rape has a total of 11% clearing rate. Similar, everything from assault to murder have a total rate of 11%. For both, the primary reason for police to stop investigating and prosecutor to not bring the case to court is a lack of evidence that is not word against word.
  - MBCook 9y ago
    We have laws. The bar is defined. Part of the problem is that people wouldn’t prosecute even if you met the standard of evidence. Another problem is that there are statutes of limitations, often quite short. So many people who were assaulted have no other recourse than the media to try to protect other future victims. What should happen instead? They got away with it past the statute of limitations so no one is allowed to bring it up or criticize them? No one is allowed to decide how they will behave towards the abuser now that they know the information because a court didn’t convict them? What would you solution be?
    - belorn 9y ago
      Here in Sweden there is a dedicated prosecutor unit that only deal with sexual violence and the law is designed in such a way that sexual violence are state crime, which mean that the state must prosecute even if the victim rescind their version of events. The cause of the 11% clearing rate is not that cases met the standard of evidence and prosecutors just refuse to go after crimes of violence or sexual violence. A typical sexual assault case involve two individuals that are alone in a room. The accused says there was consent, the accuser says there wasn't. Similarly a typical assault case involve two individuals alone in a room where both accuse the other of being the aggressor. In both cases the accuser and accused know each other. What should happen in those 90%? Lets make a law. What about a national news paper which get delivered to every person in the nation for free that describe every case from the point of view of the accuser of every crime that don't get cleared? Would that protect other future victims? Would it help giving every potential victim the same privilege of trial by media, or would it just create further problems for society?
oh_sigh 9y ago
I agree completely. Unfortunately this makes me adopt a rule where I disregard any accusation, especially accusations from decades ago, that isn't backed up with a police report/court case or some kind of substantial evidence.
- Overtonwindow 9y ago
  In today's media and society, it's never guilt or innocence, it's the seriousness of the charge, and the target. Eventually shady organizations will form to target people with false narratives and accusations because, as we've seen in the #metoo campaign, just the accusation alone can torpedo a career.
s73ver_ 9y ago
The, "the real victims in all of this are the men!" takes on this are getting pretty old. False accusations are extremely rare. Whereas harassment and sexual assault are actual, real things that women have to deal with on a daily basis. You know what can really ruin someone's life? Being harassed/assaulted and not being able to talk about it for fear that you'll be ostracised by your friends and family.
- gkya 9y ago
  > You know what can really ruin someone's life? Being harassed/assaulted and not being able to talk about it for fear that you'll be ostracised by your friends and family. I know that out of experience. Long long experiences. You never know who you're talking to on the interwebs, so be careful (not that I'm trying to intimidate you, but just an advice: a thoughtless remark might be hurting someone receiving your ones and zeros). > The, "the real victims in all of this are the men!" takes on this are getting pretty old. False accusations are extremely rare. Whereas harassment and sexual assault are actual, real things that women have to deal with on a daily basis. I'm not saying that at all, this is a strawman argument.
DonHopkins 9y ago
Right, so Trump running a propaganda campaign accusing Obama of not being born in the United States isn't slander, while all the women who accused Trump are guilty of slander?
- gkya 9y ago
  Once again I learn HN is only good for tech talk... I have not said that any of the current cases are slander. I have said that the general state of laws allows slanderers to forcefully impact people's lives. But fuck it, everyone is here to find something to attack, some way to demonstrate how they are with the victims. This is like me saying "some dose of alcohol can be lethal" and you going "yeah so you say we ban alcohol consumption because most of the stupid people who die consume alcohol". Good god...
  - DonHopkins 9y ago
    >Even being accused of something can easily ruin one's life, despite the "innocent until proven guilty" principle. Did 16 women accusing Trump of sexual harassment ruin his life? Did it get them sued for slander? Did it even prevent him from being elected president? No, no, and no. Yet Trump is still playing the victim: we are now to believe the Access Hollywood tape that Trump confessed to and apologized for is not only "locker room talk", but actually fake. Poor Billy Bush is a victim for losing his job over something that never even happened, but Trump got elected in spite of confessing to and apologize for something he didn't even do, huh?
    - gkya 9y ago
      You're a troll.
      - DonHopkins 9y ago
        That's about as weak an argument as you could have possibly made. If you don't like the facts, calling people names won't change them. It sounds to me like you're just projecting. The facts, with citations (although none of this should be news to you unless you have been living under a rock in St. Petersburg): 1) 16 women accused Trump of sexual harassment. What Happened to the 16 Women Who Accused Trump of Sexual Misconduct: http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/11/what-happened-to-trumps-16-sexual-misconduct-accusers.html http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/11/what-happened-t... 2) It did not ruin his life. Before Roy Moore, major political campaigns have survived sexual assault allegations: http://www.newsweek.com/roy-moore-just-latest-long-history-men-accused-sexual-assault-during-campaign-707429 http://www.newsweek.com/roy-moore-just-latest-long-history-m... 3) Trump threatened to sue all the women who accused him of sexual harassment, but never has. CBS's Major Garrett: Why hasn't Trump sued his sexual misconduct accusers? http://thehill.com/homenews/media/360975-cbss-major-garrett-why-hasnt-trump-sued-his-sexual-misconduct-accusers http://thehill.com/homenews/media/360975-cbss-major-garrett-... 4) Trump was elected president. Donald Trump Is Elected President in Stunning Repudiation of the Establishment: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/09/us/politics/hillary-clinton-donald-trump-president.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/09/us/politics/hillary-clint... 5) Trump always plays the victim card. Donald Trump always plays the victim card: http://edition.cnn.com/2017/08/23/politics/trump-arizona-victim/index.html http://edition.cnn.com/2017/08/23/politics/trump-arizona-vic... 6) Trump confessed and apologized for what he said in the Access Holly tape. Donald Trump Apologizes for Lewd Remarks: ‘I Pledge to Be a Better Man’: http://variety.com/2016/biz/news/donald-trump-access-hollywood-1201882204/ http://variety.com/2016/biz/news/donald-trump-access-hollywo... 7) Trump now claims the Access Hollywood tape is fake. Trump now says the access hollywood tape may be fake. He privately told two White House members that he doubts the tape’s authenticity. https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/11/trump-access-hollywood-tape-fake https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/11/trump-access-hollywo... 8) Billy Bush lost his job over the Access Hollywood tape. Billy Bush breaks silence after losing job over controversial Trump, ‘Access Hollywood’ tape: http://pix11.com/2017/05/22/billy-bush-breaks-silence-after-losing-job-over-controversial-trump-access-hollywood-tape/ http://pix11.com/2017/05/22/billy-bush-breaks-silence-after-... Do you contest any of those well documented facts (for which I could provide many more citations), or are you just going to whine "fake news", dismiss all the proven facts without presenting any proof to the contrary, and call me more names? (Maybe you could make up a racist slur of a nick-name like "Pocahontas" to call me, instead of "troll", which is really not very creative of you. That will really bolster your argument.) You claimed "the general state of laws allows slanderers to forcefully impact people's lives". I've shown you're dead wrong in Trump's case. His life isn't ruined: he's President of the United States. The existing laws DO allow Trump to defend himself by suing his accusers. And he (foolishly) threatened to do that. But the fact that he (wisely) didn't follow through with that threat is evidence that he's afraid of what the discovery process will uncover, because his accusers are telling the truth. What's ironic is that Roy Moore now likely has solid grounds to sue Jaime Phillips and Jamie O'Keefe for libel and win, for falsely accusing him of having sex with her and fathering her child when she was underaged, which is a provable lie, that Jamie O'Keefe coached her and paid her to say. Do you think he'll actually go through with that, or are the libel laws just so unfair to accused rapists and child molesters that he's a defenseless victim? Boo fucking hoo. Do you actually agree with Trump that the First Amendment should be weakened and the libel laws should be changed to make it easier for him to silence the women and who are accusing him and journalists who are reporting on it, without the risk of being subjected to the legal discovery process and suffering any consequences if he's lying? Donald Trump says he wants libel laws more like the UK's: http://money.cnn.com/2016/10/24/media/donald-trump-sue-news-organizations/index.html http://money.cnn.com/2016/10/24/media/donald-trump-sue-news-... Trump Wages War on the First Amendment: https://www.salon.com/2017/10/11/trump-wages-war-on-the-first-amendment/ https://www.salon.com/2017/10/11/trump-wages-war-on-the-firs... Trump Won’t Win a Defamation Suit as a Plaintiff, But He Could Lose as a Defendant: https://verdict.justia.com/2016/11/02/trump-wont-win-defamation-suit-plaintiff-lose-defendant https://verdict.justia.com/2016/11/02/trump-wont-win-defamat...

by gkya 9y ago

MBCook 9y ago

The problem is the bar has been way too high until now. “He’s important/beloved/whatever, he wouldn’t do that. It’s just your word against his”. And a lot of men escaped a LOT of charges because of that. I think we’re still pretty far from the pendulum going too extreme. We’ll have to figure out the balance. But what’s happening right now still seems pretty healthy. The fact that so many stories can be found so easily and corroborated shows what has been waiting in the wings.

gkya 9y ago
It's not acceptable to punish today's men for what men of past got away with. That's vendetta, blood feud, primitive. What I watch happening is lots of decisions happening based on nothing. That all or most the particular men accused at the moment are actually guilty is of no interest to me. But the way we decide on anecdotes and stories is. When we decide before the courts, we commit irreversible damage. If we say once Joe Person is a molester or a rapist or a paedophile, and then he's proven innocent, it's basically impossible to find every single person who has read the wrong accusations and convince them otherwise. Also, it's not only the bar that is lowering, the definition of what's normal advances and what's molesting is changing. In not so distant past invasive behaviour of men were even expected in some circumstances. Good that we do away with these problematic behaviours and protect people from unwanted experiences, but that in no way legitimises leaving people defenceless in front of slander.
- MBCook 9y ago
  Were not punishing today’s men for what yesterday’s men did. We’re punishing today’s men for what today’s men were still doing. And what yesterday’s men continued to do into today.
  - gkya 9y ago
    The punishment is happening before the punished is deemed guilty.
    - MBCook 9y ago
      There is no LEGAL punishment happening. It’s all social. People can behave how they wish, rightly or wrongly. There isn’t much of a way of stopping at. You could always try suing for libel/slander but even if you win everyone’s going to remember the lie. A big part of the problem is there are so many people with a lot of credibility making these accusations.
      - gkya 9y ago
        First of all I'm not questioning the present accusations. I don't even follow them that closely, to be honest. And, I was talking about the social punishment anyways. People can behave how they wish, but that does not mean they should be pushed in a wrong direction by the media and by the accusations before there's a court decision or very strong evidence (like a cam recording, a photo, etc.). It seems to me that you're trying to not understand me, so, my participation in this thread ends here.
        MBCook 9y ago
        I understand what you’re saying. I simply don’t see another way. I get you’re concerned that if someone were to be given an accusation they could lose their career and then we could find out later that it was all fake. Nothing legal went down, society simply decided to shun them. Outside of making it illegal to publish any kind of accusation in less it has been proven in a court of law… I don’t see how we could avoid people deciding to shun the accused. And maybe that’s fair given the number of women who have had their career is ruined because they chose not to work day in and day out with someone who harassed and/or raped them. Who had to leave the workforce instead, or take another job and start at the bottom of the ladder again. There’s no good solutions to ANY of this. It’s a giant mess. We’ll just have to see how it society sorts it out. In the end the long victimized group has gotten some temporary power. That seems like a step forward even if it raises the possibility of false accusations a small amount.
jrumbut 9y ago
I hate to get into this topic on the internet, but I think you're exactly right MBCook. This has been horrifyingly common and we are still a long way from justice. Stories like this show the dedication that has gone into avoiding a "witch hunt" scenario (maybe even at the expense of victims without strong corroborating evidence). There's just so much low hanging (and very rotten) fruit.
belorn 9y ago
Define the bar then, and make it a law. The beauty of laws is that they must be general and not arbitrary enforced. If create a law with a lower bar then society will also have to accept the addition abuse, and that is what society should look at when figuring out the balance. The bar right now is extrajudicial punishment through trial by media that get arbitrary enforced by which ever journalist that decide if a story is believable or not. In this case the journalist of WaPo made the right judgment call, but is that the role of journalists in 2017? Extrajudicial punishment is not a viable solution to social problems, and has a very long history of causing harm to individuals and society. Today its a rule rather than exception that the accused get death threats based on this kind of news articles, including targeting of the accused family and children. That is how far the pendulum has swung. I would last add that here in Sweden there is two crimes that have very similar clearing rates. Sexual violence and violence. Taken together everything from sexual harassment to rape has a total of 11% clearing rate. Similar, everything from assault to murder have a total rate of 11%. For both, the primary reason for police to stop investigating and prosecutor to not bring the case to court is a lack of evidence that is not word against word.
- MBCook 9y ago
  We have laws. The bar is defined. Part of the problem is that people wouldn’t prosecute even if you met the standard of evidence. Another problem is that there are statutes of limitations, often quite short. So many people who were assaulted have no other recourse than the media to try to protect other future victims. What should happen instead? They got away with it past the statute of limitations so no one is allowed to bring it up or criticize them? No one is allowed to decide how they will behave towards the abuser now that they know the information because a court didn’t convict them? What would you solution be?
  - belorn 9y ago
    Here in Sweden there is a dedicated prosecutor unit that only deal with sexual violence and the law is designed in such a way that sexual violence are state crime, which mean that the state must prosecute even if the victim rescind their version of events. The cause of the 11% clearing rate is not that cases met the standard of evidence and prosecutors just refuse to go after crimes of violence or sexual violence. A typical sexual assault case involve two individuals that are alone in a room. The accused says there was consent, the accuser says there wasn't. Similarly a typical assault case involve two individuals alone in a room where both accuse the other of being the aggressor. In both cases the accuser and accused know each other. What should happen in those 90%? Lets make a law. What about a national news paper which get delivered to every person in the nation for free that describe every case from the point of view of the accuser of every crime that don't get cleared? Would that protect other future victims? Would it help giving every potential victim the same privilege of trial by media, or would it just create further problems for society?

oh_sigh 9y ago

I agree completely. Unfortunately this makes me adopt a rule where I disregard any accusation, especially accusations from decades ago, that isn't backed up with a police report/court case or some kind of substantial evidence.

Overtonwindow 9y ago
In today's media and society, it's never guilt or innocence, it's the seriousness of the charge, and the target. Eventually shady organizations will form to target people with false narratives and accusations because, as we've seen in the #metoo campaign, just the accusation alone can torpedo a career.

s73ver_ 9y ago

The, "the real victims in all of this are the men!" takes on this are getting pretty old. False accusations are extremely rare. Whereas harassment and sexual assault are actual, real things that women have to deal with on a daily basis. You know what can really ruin someone's life? Being harassed/assaulted and not being able to talk about it for fear that you'll be ostracised by your friends and family.

gkya 9y ago
> You know what can really ruin someone's life? Being harassed/assaulted and not being able to talk about it for fear that you'll be ostracised by your friends and family. I know that out of experience. Long long experiences. You never know who you're talking to on the interwebs, so be careful (not that I'm trying to intimidate you, but just an advice: a thoughtless remark might be hurting someone receiving your ones and zeros). > The, "the real victims in all of this are the men!" takes on this are getting pretty old. False accusations are extremely rare. Whereas harassment and sexual assault are actual, real things that women have to deal with on a daily basis. I'm not saying that at all, this is a strawman argument.

DonHopkins 9y ago

Right, so Trump running a propaganda campaign accusing Obama of not being born in the United States isn't slander, while all the women who accused Trump are guilty of slander?

gkya 9y ago
Once again I learn HN is only good for tech talk... I have not said that any of the current cases are slander. I have said that the general state of laws allows slanderers to forcefully impact people's lives. But fuck it, everyone is here to find something to attack, some way to demonstrate how they are with the victims. This is like me saying "some dose of alcohol can be lethal" and you going "yeah so you say we ban alcohol consumption because most of the stupid people who die consume alcohol". Good god...
- DonHopkins 9y ago
  >Even being accused of something can easily ruin one's life, despite the "innocent until proven guilty" principle. Did 16 women accusing Trump of sexual harassment ruin his life? Did it get them sued for slander? Did it even prevent him from being elected president? No, no, and no. Yet Trump is still playing the victim: we are now to believe the Access Hollywood tape that Trump confessed to and apologized for is not only "locker room talk", but actually fake. Poor Billy Bush is a victim for losing his job over something that never even happened, but Trump got elected in spite of confessing to and apologize for something he didn't even do, huh?
  - gkya 9y ago
    You're a troll.
    - DonHopkins 9y ago
      That's about as weak an argument as you could have possibly made. If you don't like the facts, calling people names won't change them. It sounds to me like you're just projecting. The facts, with citations (although none of this should be news to you unless you have been living under a rock in St. Petersburg): 1) 16 women accused Trump of sexual harassment. What Happened to the 16 Women Who Accused Trump of Sexual Misconduct: http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/11/what-happened-to-trumps-16-sexual-misconduct-accusers.html http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/11/what-happened-t... 2) It did not ruin his life. Before Roy Moore, major political campaigns have survived sexual assault allegations: http://www.newsweek.com/roy-moore-just-latest-long-history-men-accused-sexual-assault-during-campaign-707429 http://www.newsweek.com/roy-moore-just-latest-long-history-m... 3) Trump threatened to sue all the women who accused him of sexual harassment, but never has. CBS's Major Garrett: Why hasn't Trump sued his sexual misconduct accusers? http://thehill.com/homenews/media/360975-cbss-major-garrett-why-hasnt-trump-sued-his-sexual-misconduct-accusers http://thehill.com/homenews/media/360975-cbss-major-garrett-... 4) Trump was elected president. Donald Trump Is Elected President in Stunning Repudiation of the Establishment: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/09/us/politics/hillary-clinton-donald-trump-president.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/09/us/politics/hillary-clint... 5) Trump always plays the victim card. Donald Trump always plays the victim card: http://edition.cnn.com/2017/08/23/politics/trump-arizona-victim/index.html http://edition.cnn.com/2017/08/23/politics/trump-arizona-vic... 6) Trump confessed and apologized for what he said in the Access Holly tape. Donald Trump Apologizes for Lewd Remarks: ‘I Pledge to Be a Better Man’: http://variety.com/2016/biz/news/donald-trump-access-hollywood-1201882204/ http://variety.com/2016/biz/news/donald-trump-access-hollywo... 7) Trump now claims the Access Hollywood tape is fake. Trump now says the access hollywood tape may be fake. He privately told two White House members that he doubts the tape’s authenticity. https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/11/trump-access-hollywood-tape-fake https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/11/trump-access-hollywo... 8) Billy Bush lost his job over the Access Hollywood tape. Billy Bush breaks silence after losing job over controversial Trump, ‘Access Hollywood’ tape: http://pix11.com/2017/05/22/billy-bush-breaks-silence-after-losing-job-over-controversial-trump-access-hollywood-tape/ http://pix11.com/2017/05/22/billy-bush-breaks-silence-after-... Do you contest any of those well documented facts (for which I could provide many more citations), or are you just going to whine "fake news", dismiss all the proven facts without presenting any proof to the contrary, and call me more names? (Maybe you could make up a racist slur of a nick-name like "Pocahontas" to call me, instead of "troll", which is really not very creative of you. That will really bolster your argument.) You claimed "the general state of laws allows slanderers to forcefully impact people's lives". I've shown you're dead wrong in Trump's case. His life isn't ruined: he's President of the United States. The existing laws DO allow Trump to defend himself by suing his accusers. And he (foolishly) threatened to do that. But the fact that he (wisely) didn't follow through with that threat is evidence that he's afraid of what the discovery process will uncover, because his accusers are telling the truth. What's ironic is that Roy Moore now likely has solid grounds to sue Jaime Phillips and Jamie O'Keefe for libel and win, for falsely accusing him of having sex with her and fathering her child when she was underaged, which is a provable lie, that Jamie O'Keefe coached her and paid her to say. Do you think he'll actually go through with that, or are the libel laws just so unfair to accused rapists and child molesters that he's a defenseless victim? Boo fucking hoo. Do you actually agree with Trump that the First Amendment should be weakened and the libel laws should be changed to make it easier for him to silence the women and who are accusing him and journalists who are reporting on it, without the risk of being subjected to the legal discovery process and suffering any consequences if he's lying? Donald Trump says he wants libel laws more like the UK's: http://money.cnn.com/2016/10/24/media/donald-trump-sue-news-organizations/index.html http://money.cnn.com/2016/10/24/media/donald-trump-sue-news-... Trump Wages War on the First Amendment: https://www.salon.com/2017/10/11/trump-wages-war-on-the-first-amendment/ https://www.salon.com/2017/10/11/trump-wages-war-on-the-firs... Trump Won’t Win a Defamation Suit as a Plaintiff, But He Could Lose as a Defendant: https://verdict.justia.com/2016/11/02/trump-wont-win-defamation-suit-plaintiff-lose-defendant https://verdict.justia.com/2016/11/02/trump-wont-win-defamat...