10 ms·

Fixing the MacBook Pro

191 points by ryanashcraft 9y ago

saltcod 9y ago
Surprises me that a 2015 MBP is still passable for him cpu-wise. I briefly replaced my 2014 MBP with a 2017 iMac, citing the 16GB ram ceiling as my primary issue. I ordered the iMac from Apple with 8GB of ram and ordered an additional 16GB from OWC b/c it was way cheaper. The iMac arrived over two weeks before the OWC ram arrived, so I had 2 weeks using the 8GB iMac in it's ram-starved state. In short: I never once noticed the new iMac with just 8GB to be memory-starved. Never. I don't really know what this is owing to — I assume Kaby Lake has a lot to do with it. I feel like if they could just update the 2015 MBP to the new chips, we'd be all set again for many years. That's my wish anyway. For clarity: I returned the iMac after the 15 day trial period b/c I still use a laptop a lot of the time and didn't want to be managing two computers. I think I could have used this iMac with just 8GB of ram indefinitely. It was literally a non-issue for two full weeks of normal, daily working use.
- aeturnum 9y ago
  That's fine for workloads which don't need more than 8gb of ram simultaneously. I've had workflows using scanning software (poorly optimized, but industry standard scanning software) that will gladly use more than 16 gigs of ram if available. Sometimes you just need a bigger bucket.
- RGS1811 9y ago
  Until this past summer I was doing all of my (design heavy) workload on a 2013 15-inch retina MBP, without any problems. I would still be using it, except that the display died on me and it made more sense to buy a new laptop than replace it. I was irritated at the time, because I'd wanted to wait another year in the hopes that they eliminated the touch-bar from the top-end lineup, but I've been really happy with the Kaby Lake MBP overall. It's quieter (except for the keystrokes), cooler, has a great display, etc. The things that bother me most about it are not the USB-C only thing, but the absence of a traditional power/eject keyboard button, and the relatively high occurrence of phantom keystrokes that result from brushing the touchbar with stray fingers. Otherwise it's a wonderful machine and I'm very pleased with it.
- kitsunesoba 9y ago
  I have a 15” Mid 2015 MBP as my personal machine and a latest model 15” MBP w/touchbar as my work machine, and while the latter is a bit faster I don’t feel much of a difference between the two in my day to day. The projects I work on are small/moderate sized, though, and compiling them doesn’t take too long. It’d probably be a different story if I were working on WebKit or Chrome or some other monstrously huge project. There’s huge performance gap between desktops and laptops though. If the trend wasn’t so heavily inclined towards laptops as corporate machines I’d prefer a high end iMac to be sitting on my desk at work instead of an MBP.
  - saltcod 9y ago
    How / why are desktops so much better? Wondering what was it that made that new iMac I bought so much better than this 2015 MBP with just half the ram. Any ideas?
- StringyBob 9y ago
  Interesting then that a mid 2015 mbp has similar cpu benchmark scores to an iPhone 8... https://browser.geekbench.com/v4/cpu/4929790 https://browser.geekbench.com/v4/cpu/4929790 https://browser.geekbench.com/v4/cpu/4929982 https://browser.geekbench.com/v4/cpu/4929982
- bluedino 9y ago
  Did the iMac have an SSD?
  - saltcod 9y ago
    It did yeah. My MBP does too.
sillysaurus3 9y ago
Got a 2015 Macbook Pro. As of today, the E, R, and T keys have all stopped working. Apple wants $500 for a logic board replacement. It was fine when it was just the R key. Sort of. I set up bash scripts to copy-paste "r" to my clipboard, and just pressed command-V instead of "r". But then the T key went out. The other day, I was using my MacBook with an external keyboard sitting on top, and then the whole thing shut off. The keyboard had been pressing the power button. Also ran across someone with a similar story: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15701331 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15701331 MBP rendered unusable by faulty X key. Apple wanted $400, he paid, then the G key went out. They wanted another $400.
- Chernobog 9y ago
  It is sad to hear your story, and I hope you have great luck in finding a good solution that does not empty your wallet. I really wish that the 5 year "reklamasjon" (roughly translated to claims) period we have in Norway for things that are supposed to last more than two years, caught on globally. It can sort of be explained as a warranty mandated by law, which means we can usually ignore the usual warranties from the vendor unless they give better terms or last longer than 5 years. I have had computer equipment that broke down after four and a half years, that I got either replaced or repaired for free because we have these laws. I think one of the largest benefits of having such a system world wide, would be less waste. Producers would have to make more durable products that lasted longer, not laptops, cellphones etc. that are basically treated as consumables with only a few years of life expectancy.
  - kibibu 9y ago
    Australia has a similar arrangement. The wording in the Consumer Law is deliberately vague - something like it must last "a reasonable time", which means a $2000 laptop should last longer than a $300 one. It's not a fixed 5 years. My Samsung TV I bought in 2012 died this year under normal use, and they replaced it with a new model. The "warranty" was only 12 month. I'm 100% this law is partly responsible for the "Australia tax" but it also means manufacturers can't take shortcuts. (Apple tried to claim the "reasonable time" an iPhone should last is 12 months, which didn't stand up in court given you could buy them on 2 year contracts)
mmphosis 9y ago
* A choice of Apple ARM CPU(s) or Intel * Ditch the keyboard and expand the Touch Bar to become a touchpad: an entire customizable keyboard / input pad
- lj3 9y ago
  Interesting. The virtual click of an apple touchpad would provide some tactical feedback to recognize "clicking" on individual keys on a flat surface. The next problem to solve is how to simulate the tactile separation between keys when you're typing, but not when you're mousing around.
- aetherspawn 9y ago
  ie Star Trek style.
iscoelho 9y ago
I've owned a Macbook Pro 2015. I've also owned about 3 different Cherry Blue MX mechanical keyboards. I pre-ordered the new Macbook Pro 2016 when it originally came out. Here's my take after using it for more than 6-7? months (no clue, time goes by): 1) I am extremely happy with the butterfly keyboard. There is absolutely no issues with it for me and it's my ideal keyboard. I honestly do not understand people who say the accuracy is bad on it - perfectly fine for me. Use it for long enough and you'll get used to it. The only thing it is guilty of is being different. 2) I enjoy the Touchbar and TouchID, it genuinely feels nice to use it. ESC key being on the touch bar is something you get used to, but understandably if I was a huge user of VIM it would probably make me extremely upset. Thankfully I'm not and it works fine for me. I genuinely do not notice it anymore. 3) I ran out of USB-C ports on my laptop (4 total). I have pretty much all of them in use, so I now need to resort to USB-C <-> USB A hubs. For some reason, USB-C <-> USB-C hubs don't exist, so that honestly sucks considering I completely switched to USB-C plugs before I ran out. 4) Touchpad size is much better than 2015 MBP. After using this so much I could never go back to a smaller touchpad, and using my old 2015 MBP just honestly feels bad. It might be due to my sensitivity? I have no clue why people say their hands hit the touchpad since I have never had that issue in my entire time owning it. 5) CPU and memory is great. I can run multiple virtual machines in Parallels no issue. I develop games and constantly test them in the background. I really see absolutely zero drawback from the 2015 MBP, and even though on a spec-sheet the hardware /looks/ worse, in my experience it performs much better. Take what you will from my experiences.
- tehwebguy 9y ago
  Re: #1 Agreed, my MacBook 12” keyboard is my favorite so far. My wife’s, however, feels like crap. Same year, only difference is color.
  - iscoelho 9y ago
    Yeah I enjoy butterfly switches so much that I'd be genuinely upset if Apple gave in and changed back.
    - 9y ago
twblalock 9y ago
I agree that the cable-management flaps on the power bricks need to come back. They were an excellent design and the current bricks could clearly accommodate them.
- gnicholas 9y ago
  I've heard several Apple 'Geniuses' say that if you wrap the cables around these flaps then the cable will eventually get damaged. Customers routinely reply: "why do you put the flaps there if using them will damage the cables?". Perhaps Apple has removed them because they end up damaging the cables. I've also noticed that the USB-C charge cable seems to be thicker/more rigid than the magsafe 2 charge cable.
  - WillPostForFood 9y ago
    I think people would wrap tightly, and put too much pressure on the point where the cable exited the charger when they wrapped around the flaps, which would inevitably cause a failure. It isn't much better now, but at least the cable can be replaced instead of the whole unit.
  - Chernobog 9y ago
    The cables are known to break too easily, but I'd rather want them to solve that by having proper strain relief on the cable than remove the flaps on the charger.
    - dsr_ 9y ago
      Redesigning the charger? Might as well do it properly. Have the thin cable plug in to an L projection, so it naturally wraps right around the brick body. Put an L projection on the other side, rotationally symmetric, for the wall cable plug. Now they both wrap with large radius curves, and can be replaced independently of the charger itself. You'd think that a company that theoretically charges higher prices for superior design would do something like that.
      - 9y ago
edlebert 9y ago
I would add: the trackpad is way too big. I accidentally touch it all the time when I am typing, which causes my cursor to move.
- jseliger 9y ago
  Yes, that's my big issue too. I bought and returned a 12" MB because I kept accidentally activating the trackpad. Which is a shame. I thought the keyboard was fine and lots of other things are great.
arthurlm44 9y ago
It's a slow ass piece of crap that costs way too much. Apple used to make a solid computer. I have a 2015 MBP issued to me by work, and I used to be excited about it, but I realized it's mostly overpriced garbage. OSX provides a very nice desktop experience. But the rest of the operating system is completely useless for professional programming use. Homebrew is trash. Mac OS is Unix, but it certainly does not have any of the features that Linux has (containerization, a good init system, package managers...). Oh and the new ones with the stupid butterfly switch and no ESC key... kill me now.
thenanyu 9y ago
related -- they would do well to add an escape key to the iPad pro hardware keyboard as well.
nether 9y ago
It's funny to see this in light of Marco's previous assertions: > Apple will never release an "iPad," because mobile video isn't a thing, and screen fingerprints are inevitable (2006): http://articles.marco.org/207 http://articles.marco.org/207 > The iPhone is a misstep because the onscreen keyboard makes driving unsafe (seriously), and it is over-purposed compared to a minimalist candybar phone that Apple should have released (2007): http://articles.marco.org/226 http://articles.marco.org/226 Marco seems like a blowhard who's taken Apple puritanism too far, such that every change they release is an affront to the Apple products he was accustomed to in his late 20s. In 20 years, he and everyone else will not hearken for the 2015 MacBook Pro, and everything will use wireless charging. Apple has usually been ahead of the curve, Marco is attached to some natural order of computing that does not exist.
Pharylon 9y ago
I have a 2016 MacBook Pro, and I really dislike it. Part of that is the dongles, and the dongles plugged into the dongles. I also dislike the keyboard, but I rarely use it as an actual laptop so it's fine I guess
- srge 9y ago
  I dislike mine so much as well. The battery life is so disappointing and the Touch Bar makes everything worst. I now need twice the number of taps to increase the volume or switch to the next song. For me this computer is a disaster.
- molestrangler 9y ago
  The new style keyboards from Apple are terrible. I have a 2017 MBP and their BT external keyboard (provided by work) and it is noisy, it's like having a mechanical keyboard...clack....clack....clack... Its just so difficult to type silently, unlike their previous keyboards.
dbg31415 9y ago
* Keys break. A lot. Probably 1/4th of my friends with this machine have broken keys. Never happened on the old MBPs. (As I type this I'm using a mechanical Razer keyboard plugged into a dongle plugged into a 2016 MBP with a broken G key.) * Trackpad is too big. What was the point, honestly? Nobody said, "My use case is I want a trackpad that's impossible not to bump when I type." * MagSafe was great, bring it back. Every Apple product from now until the end of time should use a MagSafe power connector. * TouchBar sucks. End of story. I miss the ESC key. I've literally never been like, "Oh gosh, I'm glad I have a TouchBar to change the volume... what a great feature!" It' just inflates production cost without adding value. * Machines lack power... CPU and RAM. Old MBPs felt like they were amazing machines that would stand up over time. 16 GB RAM has been the cap for how many years now? Like a decade? Yeah... * USB-C... other than dongles, I don't know a single accessory that uses a USB-C. Everything is Thunderbolt or USB-3. So... yeah let's have at least one USB-3 plug. I've got a USB and HDMI adapter that I use every day. Anyway nothing is built using a USB-C... I get pushing for new tech, but it seems more just like a way to add $250 in dongle sales to every new laptop sold. * They are more expensive than the old ones. =( * Office, Steam, other things... still don't run as well on Mac as they do on PC. If Apple isn't for Gamers, it has to be for people who do work? Or... look, who are the "Pro" lines for these days?
chrisbennet 9y ago
I think they should show some courage and make a Pro quality laptop again - one that doesn’t require dongles. Make it thicker, maybe even make it black. Developers don’t want the thinnest, we want the best. It’s probably never gonna happen because they are a mobile device company now and that is where the money is.
- Clubber 9y ago
  I think that's the problem, developers have different tastes. If I wanted a monster, I would get a Lenovo P71 with a Xeon at almost 8 pounds, or something like it. I like the 17 MBP for the most part, except the arrow keys and the size of the track pad (too big, I keep palming it). I like it better than the 13 I had before it.
- spronkey 9y ago
  This. Make it upgradable. RAM and multiple M.2 please. And make it shut the hell up, or let me offload compute to something that has big fans.
  - eitland 9y ago
    > or let me offload compute to something that has big fans. This one puzzles me. Back when I used a MacBook the fact that it was mostly silent was one of the biggest advantages. Also, somewhat honestly: I don’t see any reason why Mac users can't offload to AWS, Azure or Google Cloud?
    - kylec 9y ago
      You're both in agreement - bigger fans are quieter fans
    - spronkey 9y ago
      What kind of MacBook did you use, and did you plug it in to an external display? My 2013 15" MacBook Pro is extremely loud when plugged in to one or more external displays. Seems to be related to the fact that its fans are either off, or at 100%. Or at least have a very late, aggressive curve. It's also very loud when the CPU is constantly pegged at 20% or more, which is basically a given when running Xcode. I can offload some things to the cloud, but I can't offload my UI and local apps, which are the things that cause the really loud noise. When it's under a light load, it's very quiet - moreso than most non-Apple machines I've used. But under heavy load, a number of other machines seem to be much better at expelling their heat without sounding like a jet engine.
JamesBaxter 9y ago
If you buy an iPhone today does it come with a USB C or USB A cable can I plug my new phone into my top of the range laptop?
- rivm 9y ago
  It comes with a lightning to USB-A cable.
  - JamesBaxter 9y ago
    That’s crazy to me! I’ll stick with my iPhone 7 and 2015 MBP
    - mrpippy 9y ago
      True. I really wish Apple let you walk into an Apple Store and trade a Lightning-A cable for a Type-C cable.
contingencies 9y ago
I've got a MacBook Pro (Retina, 15-inch, Late 2013) with 2.6 GHz Intel Core i7 + 16GB + 1TB SSD. It was an upgrade from an earlier 2011 model which started displaying power issues, overheating and quite literally falling apart. It's fine power wise. The problems are: (1) Screen came with a bad pixel which Apple was like "oh just leave it with us 1-2 weeks and we can swap that out for you" ... totally unreasonable after dropping USD$5K, because I need my system daily. (2) Screen has an imprint of the edge of the keys on it because it is designed to be too thin/bendy, and when in a full bag receives some squash pressure. (3) Touching the lower right part of the trackpad began to reset the computer, sometimes, a couple of years ago. When it happens it happens over and over. Apple wanted $new-computer-money to fix it. I now use a Wacom tablet and stylus in most cases. (4) Some crap driver I installed (Huawei mobile data dongle for India) broke my OS in some fundamental way that was impossible to fix, and I had to re-install everything which was a nightmare waste of a weekend. To be fair I do use it daily and it is sort of surviving, but the cost is far too high. Of course "I am never buying another Mac!" ... except that I have been looking at alternatives, and none of them really appeal, except in the desktop range, which is a big leap backward in mobility. Perhaps I will just buy a cheap PC laptop with Linux or a dumb terminal at work to log in to a desktop at my house and be done with it.
- nappy-doo 9y ago
  I have a retina late 2013, and I just sent it in for a battery replacement. They swapped my drive out to a new CPU, and put my old screen on the new CPU's body. I think the cost was like 200$, and took 2 days (delivered to my door). When your machine gets battery problems, take it in ASAP, and get it repaired. I probably got 3-4 more years of life out of this machine with that repair.
  - raincom 9y ago
    Apple replaces the entire top case when you go for retina battery replacement. So, you get a new top case with new keyboard + touch pad + new battery. I don't think they replace CPU. There were times Apple gave out a new MBP when they couldn't get new top cases.
ggm 9y ago
Kill the touchbar. Give me a real escape key
twarge 9y ago
2016 MacBook Pro works like a charm for me. It's genuinely more mobile, smaller, lighter. Low-travel keys are faster for typing for me and don't ever mark the screen like some older models. Touch Bar is sometime more useful when using full screen mode with everything else hidden. If you're accustomed to trackpad scrolling on the mac using a native editor (TextMate) you are spoiled for life. Everything else feels wrong.
endemic 9y ago
It’s just super annoying that Apple labels these laptops as “pro” when it seems their focus is thinness/lightness. I don’t begrudge this on the consumer models, but the new MBP’s are so philosophically different from my older machine (expandable, lots of ports, etc.)
- orbitingpluto 9y ago
  Flexibility doesn't necessarily mean portability. Always having to remember to take the right dongle is wasted mental effort. I'd rather lug around a slightly heavier device. I'm writing to you on a 6.5lb laptop with FireWire, VGA, HDMI, DisplayPort, two 3.5mm audio jacks, SD 5 USB-A and 3 USB-C. And in all honesty, I sort of miss having a 9 pin serial port.
zitterbewegung 9y ago
I own the 2017 Macbook Pro 13 inch. Here is a list of my gripes: 1. I would like the ability to move the siri button over a bit so I don't accidentally touch it. (I should probably just remap this to something else.) 2. Some issues connecting to my hdmi monitor is slightly unreliable. Here are the things I like about it. 1. TouchId is awesome. I use it more than the Apple Watch unlock feature. 2. I have never had an issue with missing the esc key. I love the touch bar because it allows me to dismiss alerts without moving my fingers so much. 3. I bought some usb-c adaptors for a ergonomic keyboard and tracball mouse. Logitech came out with a new trackball that is bluetooth so I will probably switch to that. 4. Touchpad is amazing I have never had an issue with palm rejection. 5. I only feel a slowdown when I have an insane amount of tabs open. When that occurs I'm probably saving too much information in that tab and it should be closed. Am I happy with my purchase? Yes. I love the color. The butterfly switches with less travel allows me to type faster. The screen is gorgeous. I prefer the butterfly switches to the previous chick-let.
- sallyfour 9y ago
  You can move the siri button in keyboard settings -> customize control strip :)
benguild 9y ago
If you go all USB-C, the new models are fine. I think the primary argument is that Touch Bar sucks and I think it's overall useless to people who are used to a keyboard being a keyboard that's it... Which is probably all pro users for the most part.
- Analemma_ 9y ago
  > If you go all USB-C, the new models are fine What if I don't want to go all USB-C, especially since USB-C is a disaster? https://marco.org/2017/10/14/impossible-dream-of-usb-c https://marco.org/2017/10/14/impossible-dream-of-usb-c A "Pro" computer should serve my needs, not the other way around. I'm sick of Apple breaking things for no damn reason and then acting like I'm the problem for not just going along with it. > I think the primary argument is that Touch Bar sucks That's not the primary argument. Most people who dislike this machine think the touch bar is at least inoffensive, if not particularly useful. The primary arguments are: 1. If you get so much as a speck of dust in the keyboard, it bricks the machine and requires a >$500 repair, with no guarantees that it won't happen again the very next day. 2. The lack of useful ports means you have to carry dongles (at $80 a pop) everywhere. 3. They made a perfectly thin-enough and light-enough machine thinner and lighter, giving it worse battery life for no good reason. 4. They made a perfectly big-enough trackpad bigger, increasing the spurious input rate for no good reason.
makecheck 9y ago
I would add, “Apple, you have our permission to add a quarter inch of thickness and a bit of weight to create a better computer”. The compromises are becoming ridiculous.
on_and_off 9y ago
I got the last mac book pro at work, coming from a 2015 model I use at home. Pro : - it is lighter. I don't really find it is a very relevant pro, the previous one is already a light device so this isn't really relevant but it would not be fair to do not list it. - touch id is very convenient. It has one huge caveat : it is very capricious. For example each time the mbp crashes, fingerprints are automatically deleted. I guess it is a security measure, but it makes it a pain to register my fingers again since the machine is not that stable. Meh : - the touchpad is extremely large, I am not sure why. I had no problem with the old one. I sometimes tap on the pad by mistake but that does not happen often. Cons : -Touchbar : I can't wrap my mind around it. It is just bad. This is such a gimmick, and a badly implemented one. I can't count the number of times I mistyped on this band. Accessing a feature almost always take more time than with the old regular keyboard. On top of that, I really miss the tactility of a simple button. I am used to type without looking at the keyboard and with buttons you can't press it is far from comfortable to do so. I am on the verge of just using a dedicated keyboard and touchpad just to do not have to use this touchbar. It makes me very uncomfortable, but the high end machine my company bought for me is objectively less suited to my use case than the 2 years old one I have at home. It is the first time that even after a couple of months, I can't get used to a new machine and long to go back to the last one.
- on_and_off 9y ago
  Another minor cons is that just came to mind is that there is no longer an indicator on the keyboard's bezel giving you the position of the ports. It was pretty useful but Apple has discarded them.. That's too bad, even something really discrete like a line or even a point would be great. Lastly : magsafe was great. I am all for a future where we use USB-c but is it impossible to have a magnetic adapter on the powerplug cable ?
  - mistersquid 9y ago
    > Another minor cons is that just came to mind is that there is no longer > an indicator on the keyboard's bezel giving you the position of the > ports. On the 2016 MacBook Pro 15 the top of the speaker grill lines up with the top edge of the Touch Bar which lines up with the top edge of the plugs on Apple USB C cables. To my eyes, this "line" seems characteristic of Apple engineering.
ricardobeat 9y ago
I had a terrible experience during the first days with a MBP 13”, which was kinda offset by being amazed by the touchbar. That faded quickly though. Finding ESC without any physical affordance is a pain in the ass. Normal things like cancelling a dialog become a hurdle. I haven’t used the middle section of the touchbar in weeks - nothing really useful there. I hate the way the volume slider works. A few days back almost hurt my ears when accidentally maxed out the volume while swiping off a bit of dust from the metal right above it. I’ve had the standard dead key issue but it fixed itself. The keyboard actually feels nice, but a key gets a bit sticky every other day. What made my experience better is fully embracing USB-C. I have a hub connected to a 4K monitor, headphones and power, so I can sit down and plug in a single cable that does everything - this feels magical. [To be fair, sometimes two cables since the hub can’t keep up with charging under heavy load.]
MarkMc 9y ago
Yes, the keyboard is so disappointing. The plastic of the keys is so thin and harsh it feels so cheap. Yes, I really miss the inverted T arrow keys - my right hand can't orientate itself any more. Yes, touch pad was a mistake - a single tap should change the volume!
- Gaelan 9y ago
  This isn’t as discoverable as it should be, but you can put your finger on the volume “key” and slide without pressing the button, waiting for slider, then sliding. I think I actually like adjusting volume on the Touch bar better than the old way.
  - MarkMc 9y ago
    True, but that's not really a 'single tap'. More like 'tap then wait until the slider appears then drag finger just the right distance'
thrillgore 9y ago
The decision to go to USB-C was the last straw for me. It just means they can sell overpriced dongles when I have a significant amount invested in Thunderbolt and HDMI. I went to Asus, and back to Windows. With the Subsystem for Linux and Docker support, I couldn't be happier.
ryenus 9y ago
Though not so straightforward to find, the 2015 model is still available for purchase: https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/specs-2015/ https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/specs-2015/
blhack 9y ago
We aren't apple's target market anymore, and these are not "pro" laptops. They're "pro" iPads. The target market is upper-middle class/upper class people who want a really attractive, designer laptop. Developers have got to be such a tiny niche of Apple's customer base now that they don't care anymore. Go into an apple store sometime. Try to guess how many of the people there buying macbook "pros" are software developers.
- robraven 9y ago
  Really couldn't disagree more. So many software engineers at tier-1 tech companies use apple machines (I'd put the percentage at around 50% depending on tech stack.) Walk into any engineering class at a university and you'll likely see the same ratio, perhaps even further skewed towards macs. Disclaimer: I own a mac and a pc
  - blhack 9y ago
    No, I'm not saying that developers don't use macs (they do, except for people who have a stack that is explicitly tied to windows). I'm saying that apple doesn't care about those people anymore, because they've found a new, bigger market segment.
  - saurik 9y ago
    Even if 100% of those people are using a Mac (and they aren't... I help teach CS at a University in California and 75% of the people in my intro class this year have a Windows laptop: I counted, as I was that shocked at how different this is than five years ago when everyone had a Mac), you first have to show that there are actually a lot of those people, and there simply aren't... "engineers at tier-1 tech companies" plus students in "any engineering class at a university" is a tiny tiny tiny percentage of the market Apple is optimizing for.
    - dontjaywalk 9y ago
      Actually, it's 50%. Count a little closer next time.
dingo_bat 9y ago
> Magic keyboard Are keyboards a big problem on macbooks? I've never heard of anybody having any problems with the keys. > Great first-party USB-C hubs Or just include enough ports on the laptop itself. In my entire life I've never needed to use a hub for anything. > More ports Couldn't agree more. SD card slot, 3x USB-A, 2x USB-C, Displayport, headphone port, Ethernet port, sim card slot. > Back away from the Touch Bar Yeah the touch bar is kind of useless and fucks up the already limited keyboard. Touch screens are the way to go for the occasional touch usage. > Nicer charger Apple's never been great at charging. Iphones have always charged slower than every other phone on the market. Even their wired charging is slower than my 2 year old Samsung's wireless charging. So yeah, much improvement needed.
g09980 9y ago
Nothing is has been more frustrating than constantly accidentally touching the TouchBar while my hands are resting or while typing. I had no idea previously how many interfaces handle the Esc key.
- StringyBob 9y ago
  I remapped caps lock to be esc, and things work fine. The touch bar is just now a volume and brightness slider control!
  - g09980 9y ago
    The problem is unfortunately not being able to remove Esc from the TouchBar, and so I accidentally keep pressing it
ihenriksen 9y ago
According to Geekbench there is only about a 50% performance gain with Intel i7 CPUs since MacBook Pro Retinas from 2012, am I the only one that is surprised about this - Moore's Law and all? https://browser.geekbench.com/v4/cpu/search?q=macbook+pro https://browser.geekbench.com/v4/cpu/search?q=macbook+pro
- bluedino 9y ago
  The last year was a decent jump. 4700 vs 4100 single core geekbench
- raincom 9y ago
  I have Late 2013 MBP Retina i7-4850HQ CPU @ 2.30GHz. The score I see is: 4120 14264. For the latest MBP Retina i7-7820HQ @ 2.90HZ and its score is: 4644 15802. I see just 10% gain, and I don't see any reason to upgrade unless the logic board fails on my 3.5 years old laptop.
stevewillows 9y ago
I'm on a late 2013 15" MBP and I am dreading the day when I need to replace this joy of a machine. I like the idea of the touch bar, but I don't actually want it for keys. I think it'd be handy as a ticker for notifications, macros, etc, but not common keys. Having a bar for macros / shortcut keys for Illustrator (etc) would be extremely useful for designers, and I don't doubt that there are hundreds of other applications for other industries. Sort of like those LED keyboards that were kicking around a few years back. The requirement for dongles is just silly. I actually purchased this late-2013 MBP refurbished specifically because I didn't like the new GPU and read some other complaints about the current systems of the day. Having an SD slot, HDMI, 2x USB, etc is excellent and can easily handle most of my needs when I'm on-the-go. At home I have my laptop on a VESA mounted tray with a second monitor. All in all, there isn't a lot that Apple needs to improve with the MBP -- they just need to dial it back a few generations and retool the touchbar so its not mandatory. Lastly, bring back magsafe! Maybe there are some people who hated it, but I've never had any issues with it. There have been a few times where the cable has been kicked (often at a coffee shop by someone else.) Its a fantastic design, even if the magnets could be the tiniest bit stronger. quick edit: I hope things don't go the way of using the camera for quick unlocking. I always keep my cameras covered, even if makes me look like I'm paranoid. Using touch ID on the touch bar would definitely be ideal.
- csomar 9y ago
  The touch bar is optional. In my opinion, it is great. The only issue is that it consumes more of your battery. I agree that the new machine is lacking in terms of Battery and Memory (only 16GB!). I'm waiting for the next release.
  - acranox 9y ago
    The models without the touchbar have fewer USB ports. That’s why it’s questionably optional. My work setup uses two external monitors and wired Ethernet. So I’d like three ports and no touch bar. If I want enough ports for my setup, I have to take the touch bar too. I don’t like having to make that kind of choice.
csomar 9y ago
I disagree with a couple points here. = More ports No. This should be a strict no. Not including Flash on the iPhone has pushed the community to adapt. If Apple wasn't blunt, we'll be still stack with these "plugins". Not that I hate flash but it isn't the right way to do it even if it is more performant right now. There is no reason to have multiple different confusing ports. And different kind of cables. Let's stop this and have the whole industry work on a single type of Port. = Back away from the Touch Bar That's highly subjective. Especially that you can opt-out by choosing the model without the Touch Bar. I personally like the Touch bar.
- engi_nerd 9y ago
  You keep your world with "one port to rule them all". I need to interface with a wide variety of old and new devices, and I don't see that changing any time soon. As old gear of mine breaks, I will upgrade it, but I won't upgrade just for the sake of moving to USB C.
mikerg87 9y ago
i essentially want Apple to give me the capabilities of a thinkpad P51 in the fit and finish Of a MacBook Pro. I realize they are somewhat beholden to Intel on this as so many laptops in this class are stuck with 16GB barrier.
nunez 9y ago
I used the tbMBP for a little while earlier this year, and OP is totally right about the keyboard and touch bar. The keyboard is harder and more awkward to type on than its predecessors and the Touch Bar isn’t very useful (though it might be when it comes with Taptic Engine)
ksec 9y ago
I would very much like to see Gruber's take on it. Because while Marco is a prominent software developer, I dont think he understand Apple "that" much. Take SD Card as Example. To me they are going to the way of CD/DVD. I am not a professional photographer, so it is a little hard for me to understand what specific workflow that SD Card is mandatory. We have 802.11ax and 802.11ay, First being a much improved 802.11ac that should finally mean WiFi doesn't suck ( as much ) and the latter brings 60Ghz direct line of sight transfer and 100s of Gbps. While we are unlikely to see those speed, it is no argument that we are capable of doing 5-10 Gbps wireless transfer now, and even better in the future. So why the need for an SD Card? Your Camera should wirelessly connect to your Computer. Then there is the Keyboard, I loved the Magic Keyboard. But even then it is not perfect. So not only should Apple NOT try to put scissors back to MBP, they should make something that is better then Magic Keyboard, give the sense of depth, using more or less the height of Butterfly, while being super reliable. The problem with only 5% of MBP have keyboard issues is that the previous MBP had 1%, that is 5X more! They should aim high and have a failure rate of less then 0.5%. Again it is the same with trackpad. Let as avoid all the discussion of why such a large trackpad. But if they are going to make it stay there, may be an hands on keyboard sensor, we want palm rejection to be 99.999% accurate! Not 98 or 99%. The list goes on. But Apple is known to be the master of iteration. Or more like Steve Jobs's Apple was known for it. So the next MBP is going to be critical. Mac is still a 25M unit/ year business. 5th Largest PC Vendor by Unit, likely higher on revenue, possibly the number 1 in profits since Apple make 10x more profits then other PC vendor. ( Doesn't mean Apple is making a lot, it is just other PC vendor are cut throat competition going down to 5% Gross Profit ) So Mac still matters, and will continue to matter for the coming 10 years, despite the Post PC era, and going in a full circle, It is Apple's best chance to take over some PC Market.
Tagbert 9y ago
re:ports It seems clear that we are heading to a USB-C world but we are not there yet. There are too many existing devices to which we need connections to just abandon them. When you reduce both the type and number of ports, you make the device less versatile. The availability of USB-C is still in transition and this generation of mackbook should reflect that. include at least one USB-A port and one display-port or hdmi port. Adding USB-C ports does move things forward but dropping the others too soon just impedes the function of these laptops.

191 points by ryanashcraft 9y ago

Surprises me that a 2015 MBP is still passable for him cpu-wise. I briefly replaced my 2014 MBP with a 2017 iMac, citing the 16GB ram ceiling as my primary issue. I ordered the iMac from Apple with 8GB of ram and ordered an additional 16GB from OWC b/c it was way cheaper. The iMac arrived over two weeks before the OWC ram arrived, so I had 2 weeks using the 8GB iMac in it's ram-starved state. In short: I never once noticed the new iMac with just 8GB to be memory-starved. Never. I don't really know what this is owing to — I assume Kaby Lake has a lot to do with it. I feel like if they could just update the 2015 MBP to the new chips, we'd be all set again for many years. That's my wish anyway. For clarity: I returned the iMac after the 15 day trial period b/c I still use a laptop a lot of the time and didn't want to be managing two computers. I think I could have used this iMac with just 8GB of ram indefinitely. It was literally a non-issue for two full weeks of normal, daily working use.

aeturnum 9y ago
That's fine for workloads which don't need more than 8gb of ram simultaneously. I've had workflows using scanning software (poorly optimized, but industry standard scanning software) that will gladly use more than 16 gigs of ram if available. Sometimes you just need a bigger bucket.
RGS1811 9y ago
Until this past summer I was doing all of my (design heavy) workload on a 2013 15-inch retina MBP, without any problems. I would still be using it, except that the display died on me and it made more sense to buy a new laptop than replace it. I was irritated at the time, because I'd wanted to wait another year in the hopes that they eliminated the touch-bar from the top-end lineup, but I've been really happy with the Kaby Lake MBP overall. It's quieter (except for the keystrokes), cooler, has a great display, etc. The things that bother me most about it are not the USB-C only thing, but the absence of a traditional power/eject keyboard button, and the relatively high occurrence of phantom keystrokes that result from brushing the touchbar with stray fingers. Otherwise it's a wonderful machine and I'm very pleased with it.
kitsunesoba 9y ago
I have a 15” Mid 2015 MBP as my personal machine and a latest model 15” MBP w/touchbar as my work machine, and while the latter is a bit faster I don’t feel much of a difference between the two in my day to day. The projects I work on are small/moderate sized, though, and compiling them doesn’t take too long. It’d probably be a different story if I were working on WebKit or Chrome or some other monstrously huge project. There’s huge performance gap between desktops and laptops though. If the trend wasn’t so heavily inclined towards laptops as corporate machines I’d prefer a high end iMac to be sitting on my desk at work instead of an MBP.
- saltcod 9y ago
  How / why are desktops so much better? Wondering what was it that made that new iMac I bought so much better than this 2015 MBP with just half the ram. Any ideas?
StringyBob 9y ago
Interesting then that a mid 2015 mbp has similar cpu benchmark scores to an iPhone 8... https://browser.geekbench.com/v4/cpu/4929790 https://browser.geekbench.com/v4/cpu/4929790 https://browser.geekbench.com/v4/cpu/4929982 https://browser.geekbench.com/v4/cpu/4929982
bluedino 9y ago
Did the iMac have an SSD?
- saltcod 9y ago
  It did yeah. My MBP does too.

sillysaurus3 9y ago

Got a 2015 Macbook Pro. As of today, the E, R, and T keys have all stopped working. Apple wants $500 for a logic board replacement. It was fine when it was just the R key. Sort of. I set up bash scripts to copy-paste "r" to my clipboard, and just pressed command-V instead of "r". But then the T key went out. The other day, I was using my MacBook with an external keyboard sitting on top, and then the whole thing shut off. The keyboard had been pressing the power button. Also ran across someone with a similar story: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15701331 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15701331 MBP rendered unusable by faulty X key. Apple wanted $400, he paid, then the G key went out. They wanted another $400.

Chernobog 9y ago
It is sad to hear your story, and I hope you have great luck in finding a good solution that does not empty your wallet. I really wish that the 5 year "reklamasjon" (roughly translated to claims) period we have in Norway for things that are supposed to last more than two years, caught on globally. It can sort of be explained as a warranty mandated by law, which means we can usually ignore the usual warranties from the vendor unless they give better terms or last longer than 5 years. I have had computer equipment that broke down after four and a half years, that I got either replaced or repaired for free because we have these laws. I think one of the largest benefits of having such a system world wide, would be less waste. Producers would have to make more durable products that lasted longer, not laptops, cellphones etc. that are basically treated as consumables with only a few years of life expectancy.
- kibibu 9y ago
  Australia has a similar arrangement. The wording in the Consumer Law is deliberately vague - something like it must last "a reasonable time", which means a $2000 laptop should last longer than a $300 one. It's not a fixed 5 years. My Samsung TV I bought in 2012 died this year under normal use, and they replaced it with a new model. The "warranty" was only 12 month. I'm 100% this law is partly responsible for the "Australia tax" but it also means manufacturers can't take shortcuts. (Apple tried to claim the "reasonable time" an iPhone should last is 12 months, which didn't stand up in court given you could buy them on 2 year contracts)

mmphosis 9y ago

* A choice of Apple ARM CPU(s) or Intel * Ditch the keyboard and expand the Touch Bar to become a touchpad: an entire customizable keyboard / input pad

lj3 9y ago
Interesting. The virtual click of an apple touchpad would provide some tactical feedback to recognize "clicking" on individual keys on a flat surface. The next problem to solve is how to simulate the tactile separation between keys when you're typing, but not when you're mousing around.
aetherspawn 9y ago
ie Star Trek style.

iscoelho 9y ago

I've owned a Macbook Pro 2015. I've also owned about 3 different Cherry Blue MX mechanical keyboards. I pre-ordered the new Macbook Pro 2016 when it originally came out. Here's my take after using it for more than 6-7? months (no clue, time goes by): 1) I am extremely happy with the butterfly keyboard. There is absolutely no issues with it for me and it's my ideal keyboard. I honestly do not understand people who say the accuracy is bad on it - perfectly fine for me. Use it for long enough and you'll get used to it. The only thing it is guilty of is being different. 2) I enjoy the Touchbar and TouchID, it genuinely feels nice to use it. ESC key being on the touch bar is something you get used to, but understandably if I was a huge user of VIM it would probably make me extremely upset. Thankfully I'm not and it works fine for me. I genuinely do not notice it anymore. 3) I ran out of USB-C ports on my laptop (4 total). I have pretty much all of them in use, so I now need to resort to USB-C <-> USB A hubs. For some reason, USB-C <-> USB-C hubs don't exist, so that honestly sucks considering I completely switched to USB-C plugs before I ran out. 4) Touchpad size is much better than 2015 MBP. After using this so much I could never go back to a smaller touchpad, and using my old 2015 MBP just honestly feels bad. It might be due to my sensitivity? I have no clue why people say their hands hit the touchpad since I have never had that issue in my entire time owning it. 5) CPU and memory is great. I can run multiple virtual machines in Parallels no issue. I develop games and constantly test them in the background. I really see absolutely zero drawback from the 2015 MBP, and even though on a spec-sheet the hardware /looks/ worse, in my experience it performs much better. Take what you will from my experiences.

tehwebguy 9y ago
Re: #1 Agreed, my MacBook 12” keyboard is my favorite so far. My wife’s, however, feels like crap. Same year, only difference is color.
- iscoelho 9y ago
  Yeah I enjoy butterfly switches so much that I'd be genuinely upset if Apple gave in and changed back.
  - 9y ago

twblalock 9y ago

I agree that the cable-management flaps on the power bricks need to come back. They were an excellent design and the current bricks could clearly accommodate them.

gnicholas 9y ago
I've heard several Apple 'Geniuses' say that if you wrap the cables around these flaps then the cable will eventually get damaged. Customers routinely reply: "why do you put the flaps there if using them will damage the cables?". Perhaps Apple has removed them because they end up damaging the cables. I've also noticed that the USB-C charge cable seems to be thicker/more rigid than the magsafe 2 charge cable.
- WillPostForFood 9y ago
  I think people would wrap tightly, and put too much pressure on the point where the cable exited the charger when they wrapped around the flaps, which would inevitably cause a failure. It isn't much better now, but at least the cable can be replaced instead of the whole unit.
- Chernobog 9y ago
  The cables are known to break too easily, but I'd rather want them to solve that by having proper strain relief on the cable than remove the flaps on the charger.
  - dsr_ 9y ago
    Redesigning the charger? Might as well do it properly. Have the thin cable plug in to an L projection, so it naturally wraps right around the brick body. Put an L projection on the other side, rotationally symmetric, for the wall cable plug. Now they both wrap with large radius curves, and can be replaced independently of the charger itself. You'd think that a company that theoretically charges higher prices for superior design would do something like that.
    - 9y ago

edlebert 9y ago

I would add: the trackpad is way too big. I accidentally touch it all the time when I am typing, which causes my cursor to move.

jseliger 9y ago
Yes, that's my big issue too. I bought and returned a 12" MB because I kept accidentally activating the trackpad. Which is a shame. I thought the keyboard was fine and lots of other things are great.

arthurlm44 9y ago

It's a slow ass piece of crap that costs way too much. Apple used to make a solid computer. I have a 2015 MBP issued to me by work, and I used to be excited about it, but I realized it's mostly overpriced garbage. OSX provides a very nice desktop experience. But the rest of the operating system is completely useless for professional programming use. Homebrew is trash. Mac OS is Unix, but it certainly does not have any of the features that Linux has (containerization, a good init system, package managers...). Oh and the new ones with the stupid butterfly switch and no ESC key... kill me now.

thenanyu 9y ago

related -- they would do well to add an escape key to the iPad pro hardware keyboard as well.

nether 9y ago

It's funny to see this in light of Marco's previous assertions: > Apple will never release an "iPad," because mobile video isn't a thing, and screen fingerprints are inevitable (2006): http://articles.marco.org/207 http://articles.marco.org/207 > The iPhone is a misstep because the onscreen keyboard makes driving unsafe (seriously), and it is over-purposed compared to a minimalist candybar phone that Apple should have released (2007): http://articles.marco.org/226 http://articles.marco.org/226 Marco seems like a blowhard who's taken Apple puritanism too far, such that every change they release is an affront to the Apple products he was accustomed to in his late 20s. In 20 years, he and everyone else will not hearken for the 2015 MacBook Pro, and everything will use wireless charging. Apple has usually been ahead of the curve, Marco is attached to some natural order of computing that does not exist.

Pharylon 9y ago

I have a 2016 MacBook Pro, and I really dislike it. Part of that is the dongles, and the dongles plugged into the dongles. I also dislike the keyboard, but I rarely use it as an actual laptop so it's fine I guess

srge 9y ago
I dislike mine so much as well. The battery life is so disappointing and the Touch Bar makes everything worst. I now need twice the number of taps to increase the volume or switch to the next song. For me this computer is a disaster.
molestrangler 9y ago
The new style keyboards from Apple are terrible. I have a 2017 MBP and their BT external keyboard (provided by work) and it is noisy, it's like having a mechanical keyboard...clack....clack....clack... Its just so difficult to type silently, unlike their previous keyboards.

dbg31415 9y ago

* Keys break. A lot. Probably 1/4th of my friends with this machine have broken keys. Never happened on the old MBPs. (As I type this I'm using a mechanical Razer keyboard plugged into a dongle plugged into a 2016 MBP with a broken G key.) * Trackpad is too big. What was the point, honestly? Nobody said, "My use case is I want a trackpad that's impossible not to bump when I type." * MagSafe was great, bring it back. Every Apple product from now until the end of time should use a MagSafe power connector. * TouchBar sucks. End of story. I miss the ESC key. I've literally never been like, "Oh gosh, I'm glad I have a TouchBar to change the volume... what a great feature!" It' just inflates production cost without adding value. * Machines lack power... CPU and RAM. Old MBPs felt like they were amazing machines that would stand up over time. 16 GB RAM has been the cap for how many years now? Like a decade? Yeah... * USB-C... other than dongles, I don't know a single accessory that uses a USB-C. Everything is Thunderbolt or USB-3. So... yeah let's have at least one USB-3 plug. I've got a USB and HDMI adapter that I use every day. Anyway nothing is built using a USB-C... I get pushing for new tech, but it seems more just like a way to add $250 in dongle sales to every new laptop sold. * They are more expensive than the old ones. =( * Office, Steam, other things... still don't run as well on Mac as they do on PC. If Apple isn't for Gamers, it has to be for people who do work? Or... look, who are the "Pro" lines for these days?

chrisbennet 9y ago

I think they should show some courage and make a Pro quality laptop again - one that doesn’t require dongles. Make it thicker, maybe even make it black. Developers don’t want the thinnest, we want the best. It’s probably never gonna happen because they are a mobile device company now and that is where the money is.

Clubber 9y ago
I think that's the problem, developers have different tastes. If I wanted a monster, I would get a Lenovo P71 with a Xeon at almost 8 pounds, or something like it. I like the 17 MBP for the most part, except the arrow keys and the size of the track pad (too big, I keep palming it). I like it better than the 13 I had before it.
spronkey 9y ago
This. Make it upgradable. RAM and multiple M.2 please. And make it shut the hell up, or let me offload compute to something that has big fans.
- eitland 9y ago
  > or let me offload compute to something that has big fans. This one puzzles me. Back when I used a MacBook the fact that it was mostly silent was one of the biggest advantages. Also, somewhat honestly: I don’t see any reason why Mac users can't offload to AWS, Azure or Google Cloud?
  - kylec 9y ago
    You're both in agreement - bigger fans are quieter fans
  - spronkey 9y ago
    What kind of MacBook did you use, and did you plug it in to an external display? My 2013 15" MacBook Pro is extremely loud when plugged in to one or more external displays. Seems to be related to the fact that its fans are either off, or at 100%. Or at least have a very late, aggressive curve. It's also very loud when the CPU is constantly pegged at 20% or more, which is basically a given when running Xcode. I can offload some things to the cloud, but I can't offload my UI and local apps, which are the things that cause the really loud noise. When it's under a light load, it's very quiet - moreso than most non-Apple machines I've used. But under heavy load, a number of other machines seem to be much better at expelling their heat without sounding like a jet engine.

JamesBaxter 9y ago

If you buy an iPhone today does it come with a USB C or USB A cable can I plug my new phone into my top of the range laptop?

rivm 9y ago
It comes with a lightning to USB-A cable.
- JamesBaxter 9y ago
  That’s crazy to me! I’ll stick with my iPhone 7 and 2015 MBP
  - mrpippy 9y ago
    True. I really wish Apple let you walk into an Apple Store and trade a Lightning-A cable for a Type-C cable.

contingencies 9y ago

I've got a MacBook Pro (Retina, 15-inch, Late 2013) with 2.6 GHz Intel Core i7 + 16GB + 1TB SSD. It was an upgrade from an earlier 2011 model which started displaying power issues, overheating and quite literally falling apart. It's fine power wise. The problems are: (1) Screen came with a bad pixel which Apple was like "oh just leave it with us 1-2 weeks and we can swap that out for you" ... totally unreasonable after dropping USD$5K, because I need my system daily. (2) Screen has an imprint of the edge of the keys on it because it is designed to be too thin/bendy, and when in a full bag receives some squash pressure. (3) Touching the lower right part of the trackpad began to reset the computer, sometimes, a couple of years ago. When it happens it happens over and over. Apple wanted $new-computer-money to fix it. I now use a Wacom tablet and stylus in most cases. (4) Some crap driver I installed (Huawei mobile data dongle for India) broke my OS in some fundamental way that was impossible to fix, and I had to re-install everything which was a nightmare waste of a weekend. To be fair I do use it daily and it is sort of surviving, but the cost is far too high. Of course "I am never buying another Mac!" ... except that I have been looking at alternatives, and none of them really appeal, except in the desktop range, which is a big leap backward in mobility. Perhaps I will just buy a cheap PC laptop with Linux or a dumb terminal at work to log in to a desktop at my house and be done with it.

nappy-doo 9y ago
I have a retina late 2013, and I just sent it in for a battery replacement. They swapped my drive out to a new CPU, and put my old screen on the new CPU's body. I think the cost was like 200$, and took 2 days (delivered to my door). When your machine gets battery problems, take it in ASAP, and get it repaired. I probably got 3-4 more years of life out of this machine with that repair.
- raincom 9y ago
  Apple replaces the entire top case when you go for retina battery replacement. So, you get a new top case with new keyboard + touch pad + new battery. I don't think they replace CPU. There were times Apple gave out a new MBP when they couldn't get new top cases.

ggm 9y ago

Kill the touchbar. Give me a real escape key

twarge 9y ago

2016 MacBook Pro works like a charm for me. It's genuinely more mobile, smaller, lighter. Low-travel keys are faster for typing for me and don't ever mark the screen like some older models. Touch Bar is sometime more useful when using full screen mode with everything else hidden. If you're accustomed to trackpad scrolling on the mac using a native editor (TextMate) you are spoiled for life. Everything else feels wrong.

endemic 9y ago

It’s just super annoying that Apple labels these laptops as “pro” when it seems their focus is thinness/lightness. I don’t begrudge this on the consumer models, but the new MBP’s are so philosophically different from my older machine (expandable, lots of ports, etc.)

orbitingpluto 9y ago
Flexibility doesn't necessarily mean portability. Always having to remember to take the right dongle is wasted mental effort. I'd rather lug around a slightly heavier device. I'm writing to you on a 6.5lb laptop with FireWire, VGA, HDMI, DisplayPort, two 3.5mm audio jacks, SD 5 USB-A and 3 USB-C. And in all honesty, I sort of miss having a 9 pin serial port.

zitterbewegung 9y ago

I own the 2017 Macbook Pro 13 inch. Here is a list of my gripes: 1. I would like the ability to move the siri button over a bit so I don't accidentally touch it. (I should probably just remap this to something else.) 2. Some issues connecting to my hdmi monitor is slightly unreliable. Here are the things I like about it. 1. TouchId is awesome. I use it more than the Apple Watch unlock feature. 2. I have never had an issue with missing the esc key. I love the touch bar because it allows me to dismiss alerts without moving my fingers so much. 3. I bought some usb-c adaptors for a ergonomic keyboard and tracball mouse. Logitech came out with a new trackball that is bluetooth so I will probably switch to that. 4. Touchpad is amazing I have never had an issue with palm rejection. 5. I only feel a slowdown when I have an insane amount of tabs open. When that occurs I'm probably saving too much information in that tab and it should be closed. Am I happy with my purchase? Yes. I love the color. The butterfly switches with less travel allows me to type faster. The screen is gorgeous. I prefer the butterfly switches to the previous chick-let.

sallyfour 9y ago
You can move the siri button in keyboard settings -> customize control strip :)

benguild 9y ago

If you go all USB-C, the new models are fine. I think the primary argument is that Touch Bar sucks and I think it's overall useless to people who are used to a keyboard being a keyboard that's it... Which is probably all pro users for the most part.

Analemma_ 9y ago
> If you go all USB-C, the new models are fine What if I don't want to go all USB-C, especially since USB-C is a disaster? https://marco.org/2017/10/14/impossible-dream-of-usb-c https://marco.org/2017/10/14/impossible-dream-of-usb-c A "Pro" computer should serve my needs, not the other way around. I'm sick of Apple breaking things for no damn reason and then acting like I'm the problem for not just going along with it. > I think the primary argument is that Touch Bar sucks That's not the primary argument. Most people who dislike this machine think the touch bar is at least inoffensive, if not particularly useful. The primary arguments are: 1. If you get so much as a speck of dust in the keyboard, it bricks the machine and requires a >$500 repair, with no guarantees that it won't happen again the very next day. 2. The lack of useful ports means you have to carry dongles (at $80 a pop) everywhere. 3. They made a perfectly thin-enough and light-enough machine thinner and lighter, giving it worse battery life for no good reason. 4. They made a perfectly big-enough trackpad bigger, increasing the spurious input rate for no good reason.

makecheck 9y ago

I would add, “Apple, you have our permission to add a quarter inch of thickness and a bit of weight to create a better computer”. The compromises are becoming ridiculous.

on_and_off 9y ago

I got the last mac book pro at work, coming from a 2015 model I use at home. Pro : - it is lighter. I don't really find it is a very relevant pro, the previous one is already a light device so this isn't really relevant but it would not be fair to do not list it. - touch id is very convenient. It has one huge caveat : it is very capricious. For example each time the mbp crashes, fingerprints are automatically deleted. I guess it is a security measure, but it makes it a pain to register my fingers again since the machine is not that stable. Meh : - the touchpad is extremely large, I am not sure why. I had no problem with the old one. I sometimes tap on the pad by mistake but that does not happen often. Cons : -Touchbar : I can't wrap my mind around it. It is just bad. This is such a gimmick, and a badly implemented one. I can't count the number of times I mistyped on this band. Accessing a feature almost always take more time than with the old regular keyboard. On top of that, I really miss the tactility of a simple button. I am used to type without looking at the keyboard and with buttons you can't press it is far from comfortable to do so. I am on the verge of just using a dedicated keyboard and touchpad just to do not have to use this touchbar. It makes me very uncomfortable, but the high end machine my company bought for me is objectively less suited to my use case than the 2 years old one I have at home. It is the first time that even after a couple of months, I can't get used to a new machine and long to go back to the last one.

on_and_off 9y ago
Another minor cons is that just came to mind is that there is no longer an indicator on the keyboard's bezel giving you the position of the ports. It was pretty useful but Apple has discarded them.. That's too bad, even something really discrete like a line or even a point would be great. Lastly : magsafe was great. I am all for a future where we use USB-c but is it impossible to have a magnetic adapter on the powerplug cable ?
- mistersquid 9y ago
  > Another minor cons is that just came to mind is that there is no longer > an indicator on the keyboard's bezel giving you the position of the > ports. On the 2016 MacBook Pro 15 the top of the speaker grill lines up with the top edge of the Touch Bar which lines up with the top edge of the plugs on Apple USB C cables. To my eyes, this "line" seems characteristic of Apple engineering.

ricardobeat 9y ago

I had a terrible experience during the first days with a MBP 13”, which was kinda offset by being amazed by the touchbar. That faded quickly though. Finding ESC without any physical affordance is a pain in the ass. Normal things like cancelling a dialog become a hurdle. I haven’t used the middle section of the touchbar in weeks - nothing really useful there. I hate the way the volume slider works. A few days back almost hurt my ears when accidentally maxed out the volume while swiping off a bit of dust from the metal right above it. I’ve had the standard dead key issue but it fixed itself. The keyboard actually feels nice, but a key gets a bit sticky every other day. What made my experience better is fully embracing USB-C. I have a hub connected to a 4K monitor, headphones and power, so I can sit down and plug in a single cable that does everything - this feels magical. [To be fair, sometimes two cables since the hub can’t keep up with charging under heavy load.]

MarkMc 9y ago

Yes, the keyboard is so disappointing. The plastic of the keys is so thin and harsh it feels so cheap. Yes, I really miss the inverted T arrow keys - my right hand can't orientate itself any more. Yes, touch pad was a mistake - a single tap should change the volume!

Gaelan 9y ago
This isn’t as discoverable as it should be, but you can put your finger on the volume “key” and slide without pressing the button, waiting for slider, then sliding. I think I actually like adjusting volume on the Touch bar better than the old way.
- MarkMc 9y ago
  True, but that's not really a 'single tap'. More like 'tap then wait until the slider appears then drag finger just the right distance'

thrillgore 9y ago

The decision to go to USB-C was the last straw for me. It just means they can sell overpriced dongles when I have a significant amount invested in Thunderbolt and HDMI. I went to Asus, and back to Windows. With the Subsystem for Linux and Docker support, I couldn't be happier.

ryenus 9y ago

Though not so straightforward to find, the 2015 model is still available for purchase: https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/specs-2015/ https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/specs-2015/

blhack 9y ago

We aren't apple's target market anymore, and these are not "pro" laptops. They're "pro" iPads. The target market is upper-middle class/upper class people who want a really attractive, designer laptop. Developers have got to be such a tiny niche of Apple's customer base now that they don't care anymore. Go into an apple store sometime. Try to guess how many of the people there buying macbook "pros" are software developers.

robraven 9y ago
Really couldn't disagree more. So many software engineers at tier-1 tech companies use apple machines (I'd put the percentage at around 50% depending on tech stack.) Walk into any engineering class at a university and you'll likely see the same ratio, perhaps even further skewed towards macs. Disclaimer: I own a mac and a pc
- blhack 9y ago
  No, I'm not saying that developers don't use macs (they do, except for people who have a stack that is explicitly tied to windows). I'm saying that apple doesn't care about those people anymore, because they've found a new, bigger market segment.
- saurik 9y ago
  Even if 100% of those people are using a Mac (and they aren't... I help teach CS at a University in California and 75% of the people in my intro class this year have a Windows laptop: I counted, as I was that shocked at how different this is than five years ago when everyone had a Mac), you first have to show that there are actually a lot of those people, and there simply aren't... "engineers at tier-1 tech companies" plus students in "any engineering class at a university" is a tiny tiny tiny percentage of the market Apple is optimizing for.
  - dontjaywalk 9y ago
    Actually, it's 50%. Count a little closer next time.

dingo_bat 9y ago

> Magic keyboard Are keyboards a big problem on macbooks? I've never heard of anybody having any problems with the keys. > Great first-party USB-C hubs Or just include enough ports on the laptop itself. In my entire life I've never needed to use a hub for anything. > More ports Couldn't agree more. SD card slot, 3x USB-A, 2x USB-C, Displayport, headphone port, Ethernet port, sim card slot. > Back away from the Touch Bar Yeah the touch bar is kind of useless and fucks up the already limited keyboard. Touch screens are the way to go for the occasional touch usage. > Nicer charger Apple's never been great at charging. Iphones have always charged slower than every other phone on the market. Even their wired charging is slower than my 2 year old Samsung's wireless charging. So yeah, much improvement needed.

g09980 9y ago

Nothing is has been more frustrating than constantly accidentally touching the TouchBar while my hands are resting or while typing. I had no idea previously how many interfaces handle the Esc key.

StringyBob 9y ago
I remapped caps lock to be esc, and things work fine. The touch bar is just now a volume and brightness slider control!
- g09980 9y ago
  The problem is unfortunately not being able to remove Esc from the TouchBar, and so I accidentally keep pressing it

ihenriksen 9y ago

According to Geekbench there is only about a 50% performance gain with Intel i7 CPUs since MacBook Pro Retinas from 2012, am I the only one that is surprised about this - Moore's Law and all? https://browser.geekbench.com/v4/cpu/search?q=macbook+pro https://browser.geekbench.com/v4/cpu/search?q=macbook+pro

bluedino 9y ago
The last year was a decent jump. 4700 vs 4100 single core geekbench
raincom 9y ago
I have Late 2013 MBP Retina i7-4850HQ CPU @ 2.30GHz. The score I see is: 4120 14264. For the latest MBP Retina i7-7820HQ @ 2.90HZ and its score is: 4644 15802. I see just 10% gain, and I don't see any reason to upgrade unless the logic board fails on my 3.5 years old laptop.

stevewillows 9y ago

I'm on a late 2013 15" MBP and I am dreading the day when I need to replace this joy of a machine. I like the idea of the touch bar, but I don't actually want it for keys. I think it'd be handy as a ticker for notifications, macros, etc, but not common keys. Having a bar for macros / shortcut keys for Illustrator (etc) would be extremely useful for designers, and I don't doubt that there are hundreds of other applications for other industries. Sort of like those LED keyboards that were kicking around a few years back. The requirement for dongles is just silly. I actually purchased this late-2013 MBP refurbished specifically because I didn't like the new GPU and read some other complaints about the current systems of the day. Having an SD slot, HDMI, 2x USB, etc is excellent and can easily handle most of my needs when I'm on-the-go. At home I have my laptop on a VESA mounted tray with a second monitor. All in all, there isn't a lot that Apple needs to improve with the MBP -- they just need to dial it back a few generations and retool the touchbar so its not mandatory. Lastly, bring back magsafe! Maybe there are some people who hated it, but I've never had any issues with it. There have been a few times where the cable has been kicked (often at a coffee shop by someone else.) Its a fantastic design, even if the magnets could be the tiniest bit stronger. quick edit: I hope things don't go the way of using the camera for quick unlocking. I always keep my cameras covered, even if makes me look like I'm paranoid. Using touch ID on the touch bar would definitely be ideal.

csomar 9y ago
The touch bar is optional. In my opinion, it is great. The only issue is that it consumes more of your battery. I agree that the new machine is lacking in terms of Battery and Memory (only 16GB!). I'm waiting for the next release.
- acranox 9y ago
  The models without the touchbar have fewer USB ports. That’s why it’s questionably optional. My work setup uses two external monitors and wired Ethernet. So I’d like three ports and no touch bar. If I want enough ports for my setup, I have to take the touch bar too. I don’t like having to make that kind of choice.

csomar 9y ago

I disagree with a couple points here. = More ports No. This should be a strict no. Not including Flash on the iPhone has pushed the community to adapt. If Apple wasn't blunt, we'll be still stack with these "plugins". Not that I hate flash but it isn't the right way to do it even if it is more performant right now. There is no reason to have multiple different confusing ports. And different kind of cables. Let's stop this and have the whole industry work on a single type of Port. = Back away from the Touch Bar That's highly subjective. Especially that you can opt-out by choosing the model without the Touch Bar. I personally like the Touch bar.

engi_nerd 9y ago
You keep your world with "one port to rule them all". I need to interface with a wide variety of old and new devices, and I don't see that changing any time soon. As old gear of mine breaks, I will upgrade it, but I won't upgrade just for the sake of moving to USB C.

mikerg87 9y ago

i essentially want Apple to give me the capabilities of a thinkpad P51 in the fit and finish Of a MacBook Pro. I realize they are somewhat beholden to Intel on this as so many laptops in this class are stuck with 16GB barrier.

nunez 9y ago

I used the tbMBP for a little while earlier this year, and OP is totally right about the keyboard and touch bar. The keyboard is harder and more awkward to type on than its predecessors and the Touch Bar isn’t very useful (though it might be when it comes with Taptic Engine)

ksec 9y ago

I would very much like to see Gruber's take on it. Because while Marco is a prominent software developer, I dont think he understand Apple "that" much. Take SD Card as Example. To me they are going to the way of CD/DVD. I am not a professional photographer, so it is a little hard for me to understand what specific workflow that SD Card is mandatory. We have 802.11ax and 802.11ay, First being a much improved 802.11ac that should finally mean WiFi doesn't suck ( as much ) and the latter brings 60Ghz direct line of sight transfer and 100s of Gbps. While we are unlikely to see those speed, it is no argument that we are capable of doing 5-10 Gbps wireless transfer now, and even better in the future. So why the need for an SD Card? Your Camera should wirelessly connect to your Computer. Then there is the Keyboard, I loved the Magic Keyboard. But even then it is not perfect. So not only should Apple NOT try to put scissors back to MBP, they should make something that is better then Magic Keyboard, give the sense of depth, using more or less the height of Butterfly, while being super reliable. The problem with only 5% of MBP have keyboard issues is that the previous MBP had 1%, that is 5X more! They should aim high and have a failure rate of less then 0.5%. Again it is the same with trackpad. Let as avoid all the discussion of why such a large trackpad. But if they are going to make it stay there, may be an hands on keyboard sensor, we want palm rejection to be 99.999% accurate! Not 98 or 99%. The list goes on. But Apple is known to be the master of iteration. Or more like Steve Jobs's Apple was known for it. So the next MBP is going to be critical. Mac is still a 25M unit/ year business. 5th Largest PC Vendor by Unit, likely higher on revenue, possibly the number 1 in profits since Apple make 10x more profits then other PC vendor. ( Doesn't mean Apple is making a lot, it is just other PC vendor are cut throat competition going down to 5% Gross Profit ) So Mac still matters, and will continue to matter for the coming 10 years, despite the Post PC era, and going in a full circle, It is Apple's best chance to take over some PC Market.

Tagbert 9y ago

re:ports It seems clear that we are heading to a USB-C world but we are not there yet. There are too many existing devices to which we need connections to just abandon them. When you reduce both the type and number of ports, you make the device less versatile. The availability of USB-C is still in transition and this generation of mackbook should reflect that. include at least one USB-A port and one display-port or hdmi port. Adding USB-C ports does move things forward but dropping the others too soon just impedes the function of these laptops.