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It only intuitively makes sense -- there are quite a few assumptions. The local product is typically more expensive because it's production is less efficient (i

It only intuitively makes sense -- there are quite a few assumptions. The local product is typically more expensive because it's production is less efficient (if it wasn't, it would just compete with the non-local product at regular market conditions). Being less efficient means using more inputs per output, so what is the local farmers inputs, and -- crucially -- where are those inputs made? Is he using his not-locally-made tractor less efficiently? Is he paying a mortgage to a non-local financial institution? Is he sourcing his feed, seeds, fertilizer, fuel etc locally? And of his profit, how much of it is he spending locally? These are difficult numbers to work out exactly, but it's not difficult to see that they have to be in a pretty thigh range for your local-premium to actually, on the net, drain resources from the community, compared to you just eating cheaper meals a bit more frequently. The main type of input that most obviously support the local community is labor, and most modern products, particularly agriculturally, are rather light on labor, so you might end up supporting one job at the farm in favor of three jobs at the diner. Especially if the farm-job is held by a "highly educated, ex-urban, first-time farmer" and the diner-jobs by single moms, it's getting morally quite dubious. But to wrap this up, local to non-local is rarely apples to apples. Just as with organic, there's probably a very substantial overlap with meeting a demand for products that are simply better (and thus more expensive), with the nominal quality (local, organic) actually being secondary.

jcbrand 9y ago
> The local product is typically more expensive because it's production is less efficient I agree with the gist of what you're saying, but I think you're leaving out some details. We know that other non-local products can be made cheaper because they are in localities that are lax on labor laws and environmental protection. So the notion that it's simply about efficiency is in my opinion a bit reductionistic. As an example, to make my point... I would use a different word than "efficiency" to describe someone who uses slave-labor to push costs down. So when buying local, at least you know which standards the producers are held to. It's the same with Bio/Organic/Free-trade products.
- mseebach 9y ago
  For the purposes of this discussion, tax is a cost like any other, and subject to the same considerations: Where and on what is that money then spent? If it's spent on a Halliburton-produced armoured vehicle for the local police departments war on drugs, you and the community are probably better off buying non-local from a low-tax locality.
- NikolaeVarius 9y ago
  Not in terms of just cost. In can be more efficient in terms of pollution too http://getmoreeducation.org/Content/Modules/Module1/1_Coley_Howard_and_Winter_Food_Miles.pdf http://getmoreeducation.org/Content/Modules/Module1/1_Coley_... https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2016/07/25/organic-vs-conventional-farming-lower-environmental-impact/ https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2016/07/25/organic-vs-con...
- Dylan16807 9y ago
  > We know that other non-local products can be made cheaper because they are in localities that are lax on labor laws and environmental protection. That can be a factor, but simply making things in bulk is a huge efficiency gain even with the exact same worker/environment protection. And on top of that you have transportation efficiency to take into account. A remote farm can send full trailers of product to a distribution center, which then sends full trailers carrying multiple products to stores. A local farm can't send a full trailer of apples to a local store, it has to do much less efficient things.
  - tbihl 9y ago
    It's not always advantageous to be efficient, and this is even more true in really important areas like food supply, because having the extra, underutilized capacity can save you in a pinch. When it comes to frivolous things like computers and phones and cars, it's much easier to favor efficiency,because the breakdowns can be really problematic, but still less immediately endangering. Evolution is perhaps the best example of how being inefficient can be hugely beneficial in the long term.
Nomentatus 9y ago
The biggest efficiency is nutritional, and taste - varieties that travel very, very well trade off a lot of nutrition for that trait.
- mseebach 9y ago
  If you're buying a better product for a price you're considering fair, you're not meaningfully "buying local" - the product you prefer just happens to be locally produced (and possibly can only be locally produced). The kind of buying local that you need campaigns to encourage people to do, is generally either more expensive or poorer quality than the non-local alternative.
  - Nomentatus 9y ago
    Better is the whole point of buying local - the can't buy traditional varieties remotely because they don't ship well. Of course you COULD buy shabby shipping varieties locally, but that was never what Alice was about, and it would be a silly thing to do.
- scott_s 9y ago
  From the studies I have heard about, there is no measurable nutritional difference between organic and non-organic food. See https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/no-health-benefits-from-organic-food/ https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/no-health-benefits-from-org... I am unaware of such studies for small farms versus large farms.
  - sliverstorm 9y ago
    Your parent is not talking about organic methods, but rather different varieties of crops. E.g., big red beefsteak tomatoes are popular and travel well while little heirloom varieties do not, so you are going to have access to additional, possibly more nutrative, varieties if you buy local.
  - Nomentatus 9y ago
    This has nothing to do with "organic" anything - the conditions of breeding - but modern breeds of vegetables and fruit. There's no shortage of evidence of the difference, and the decline in vitamin content over the last many decades, in the U.S.

jcbrand 9y ago

> The local product is typically more expensive because it's production is less efficient I agree with the gist of what you're saying, but I think you're leaving out some details. We know that other non-local products can be made cheaper because they are in localities that are lax on labor laws and environmental protection. So the notion that it's simply about efficiency is in my opinion a bit reductionistic. As an example, to make my point... I would use a different word than "efficiency" to describe someone who uses slave-labor to push costs down. So when buying local, at least you know which standards the producers are held to. It's the same with Bio/Organic/Free-trade products.

mseebach 9y ago
For the purposes of this discussion, tax is a cost like any other, and subject to the same considerations: Where and on what is that money then spent? If it's spent on a Halliburton-produced armoured vehicle for the local police departments war on drugs, you and the community are probably better off buying non-local from a low-tax locality.
NikolaeVarius 9y ago
Not in terms of just cost. In can be more efficient in terms of pollution too http://getmoreeducation.org/Content/Modules/Module1/1_Coley_Howard_and_Winter_Food_Miles.pdf http://getmoreeducation.org/Content/Modules/Module1/1_Coley_... https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2016/07/25/organic-vs-conventional-farming-lower-environmental-impact/ https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2016/07/25/organic-vs-con...
Dylan16807 9y ago
> We know that other non-local products can be made cheaper because they are in localities that are lax on labor laws and environmental protection. That can be a factor, but simply making things in bulk is a huge efficiency gain even with the exact same worker/environment protection. And on top of that you have transportation efficiency to take into account. A remote farm can send full trailers of product to a distribution center, which then sends full trailers carrying multiple products to stores. A local farm can't send a full trailer of apples to a local store, it has to do much less efficient things.
- tbihl 9y ago
  It's not always advantageous to be efficient, and this is even more true in really important areas like food supply, because having the extra, underutilized capacity can save you in a pinch. When it comes to frivolous things like computers and phones and cars, it's much easier to favor efficiency,because the breakdowns can be really problematic, but still less immediately endangering. Evolution is perhaps the best example of how being inefficient can be hugely beneficial in the long term.

Nomentatus 9y ago

The biggest efficiency is nutritional, and taste - varieties that travel very, very well trade off a lot of nutrition for that trait.

mseebach 9y ago
If you're buying a better product for a price you're considering fair, you're not meaningfully "buying local" - the product you prefer just happens to be locally produced (and possibly can only be locally produced). The kind of buying local that you need campaigns to encourage people to do, is generally either more expensive or poorer quality than the non-local alternative.
- Nomentatus 9y ago
  Better is the whole point of buying local - the can't buy traditional varieties remotely because they don't ship well. Of course you COULD buy shabby shipping varieties locally, but that was never what Alice was about, and it would be a silly thing to do.
scott_s 9y ago
From the studies I have heard about, there is no measurable nutritional difference between organic and non-organic food. See https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/no-health-benefits-from-organic-food/ https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/no-health-benefits-from-org... I am unaware of such studies for small farms versus large farms.
- sliverstorm 9y ago
  Your parent is not talking about organic methods, but rather different varieties of crops. E.g., big red beefsteak tomatoes are popular and travel well while little heirloom varieties do not, so you are going to have access to additional, possibly more nutrative, varieties if you buy local.
- Nomentatus 9y ago
  This has nothing to do with "organic" anything - the conditions of breeding - but modern breeds of vegetables and fruit. There's no shortage of evidence of the difference, and the decline in vitamin content over the last many decades, in the U.S.