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The Western Elite from a Chinese Perspective

533 points by monsieurpng 9y ago

t3rseCode 9y ago
I'm curious for other immigrants with kids, how difficult is it to break from the more deterministic "study hardest for success" vs relaxing a bit to optimize for happiness and embracing the impact of luck.
- rsync 9y ago
  "... break from the more deterministic "study hardest for success" vs relaxing a bit to optimize for happiness and embracing the impact of luck." Ahh, yes - the third generation ... "We are an immigrant nation. The first generation works their fingers to the bone making things; the next generation goes to college and innovates new ideas. The third generation snowboards and takes improv classes."[1] [1] http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-10-11/business/ct-biz-1011-bf-donaghy-quotes-20121011_1_quotes-jack-donaghy-business-etiquette http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-10-11/business/ct-bi...
  - SadWebDeveloper 9y ago
    The fourth generation lives from the third and two well, the fifth generation again works their fingers to the bone making things.
    - nine_k 9y ago
      ...unless all the factories are already overseas.
  - krylon 9y ago
    Totally OT, but strangely, 30 Rock appears to be getting better every time I re-watch it. Most other shows tend to get on my nerves after a few times, but 30 Rock just keeps getting more enjoyable.
roberthluo 9y ago
Reading about the west from a Chinese perspective is a breath of fresh air. Similar in background to the author, I have come to the same conclusion; that everything in life is based on a bit of luck and achievement. He also absorbed, which is somewhat unusual in my opinion the differences between U.S. and the U.K. I think he has a much more nuanced view of all three societies that he has written.
- grot 9y ago
  I also come from a similar background, and his points also seem poignant to me -- the first, in my reading, is about the lottery of birth; would he or I or you have been successful (with presumably our predisposition to succeed in academia) in China merely 70 years ago? Perhaps not. The second, related, is that we should be grateful for the achievements which might naturally appear as the product of our own labor, and (I think) also to forgive others for the achievements that appear to be the product of their labor. Though implicit, I think this article actually makes an interesting implication about jealousy. What exactly is there to be jealous of in another person if luck, and randomness plays so much in our fortunes? This article is also a warning against self-help. So much determines our fortunes besides the advice we can take or the effort we make. The best is what -- rolling with the punches --
  - roberthluo 9y ago
    I agree with your points, except the part on jealously and warning against self-help. I view his life similar to investing, as he mentioned: being "long term greedy." I thought him and his parent's story illustrated this. It is unlikely that his parents had the best schooling in the world, but they were successful financially somewhat. When their son struggled in school, they enrolled him somewhere else and gave him more resources. He used that and achieve more by attending the most prestigious institution in the world. While it is likely that luck played a huge role, ie. China's market liberalization and growth, U.K. schools wanting to make more revenue, his stint at GS. He and his parents needed to be there in position the first place to take advantage of all of that. I do not think this is his point to warn against self help, rather than an examination of why and how he got to where he did. Luck only comes when you are in position to seize it. Yes despite your best efforts, it might never come. But it can come when you never expect it because you are in the right place and the right time.
fahayekwasright 9y ago
Interesting that in one section, he casts doubt on the notion that mathematical models can accurately describe reality, and in another, he uses a heart rate monitor to conclude that he doesn’t have emotions.
- stevenwoo 9y ago
  Two things - a.) the scientific hypothesis that heart rate is elevated via uncontrolled nervous system response in the human body is well accepted versus most economic hypothesis appearing to be post hoc explanations rather than theories that can actually predict the future as he clearly writes the second thing out when critiquing some things his professors said b.) the over stated diagnosis - maybe he's slightly psychopathic or so unfamiliar with Western centric interpersonal culture it doesn't affect him. :)
- dwaltrip 9y ago
  I don't think our economic models are comparable in accuracy or reliability to a heart rate monitor.
  - quicklime 9y ago
    I'm not sure that's the right comparison. A heart rate monitor is not a mathematical model of human emotion, it's just a measurement tool. And it's one that is no more accurate or reliable than the tools we use to measure the price of a trade. Real world markets are much more complicated than economic models, just as human emotion is more complicated than the author's model of no change heart rate = no change in emotion.
  - aaavl2821 9y ago
    Nor are heart rate monitors an accurate or reliable predictor of emotion
- analog31 9y ago
  I thought it was brilliant. He "innocently" exposed the whole class as a hoax.
bouvin 9y ago
> "In Communism, the future is certain; it is only the past that might not be" A fine essay, the above quote gave me a chuckle.
- kunimu 9y ago
  I'm not so sure what is meant by it. Adherents of Marxism-Leninism utilise the method of dialectical materialism to analyse the past and to provide a model for the structure of the future based on the resolution of dialectical contradictions. The contradictions of feudalism led to capitalism, and the contradictions of capitalism (the value-form in particular, class antagonism) lead to Communism.
  - Malician 9y ago
    When the author describes "communism" or "capitalism" he appears to be writing about his experience with them as he has seem them actually practiced, rather than the theory of how they are supposed to work according to their adherents.
    - kunimu 9y ago
      Upon second reading, that makes more sense, however it would be clearer if this were the case. "Chinese Communism" can refer either to the ideology which the CCP claim to adhere themselves to, or it can refer to the actual state-capitalist bureaucracy as practiced in China.
      - ghostbrainalpha 9y ago
        It could definitely be clearer. But the more you have to explain a joke the less funny it is.
  - empath75 9y ago
    He’s talking about actual communist political systems, not theoretical communism. Look at how China censored mention of tienanmen square, or how Stalin disappeared people from books and photographs.
rdtsc 9y ago
> My parents by then had reached the conclusion that I was not going anywhere promising in China and were ready to send me abroad for high school. Maybe the title should be "The Western Elite from a Chinese Elite Perspective". Surely sending kids to school to UK as plan B is not in the average Chinese family's abilities. Doesn't mean we should discount the article or its ideas but it's useful to keep the author's background in mind.
- hollerith 9y ago
  Also relevant is that fact that the article contains that statement, "I am the child of modest workers".
  - vostok 9y ago
    I wouldn't blame the author for this. I have a similar background in many ways. It took me a long time and a good deal of luck to realize that I am not the child of modest workers.
    - aalleavitch 9y ago
      I agree, these judgements can only ever be made relative to one's own perspective. It's important not to take at face value someone else's notion of "modest worker", and even more important not to take your own notion at face value either.
    - walshemj 9y ago
      That's true certainly in my teens I wouldn't have thought that though I do come from a middle class back ground as would those went to public school instead of a comprehensive. I suppose it started to dawn on me when mum commented that if we had stayed in Birmingham they would have used my Grandfather (a headmaster) to try and pull strings to get me into Kings Edwards, BTW this is "the" King Edwards (JRR Tolkien's alma mata) that takes turn with the Oratory for the top school in the country.
  - usaar333 9y ago
    > Yet I had to do it every day. At the end-of-year exam, I scored second from the bottom of the class—the same place where I began in first grade. But this time it was much harder to accept, after the glory I had enjoyed just one year earlier and the huge amount of effort I had put into studying this year. Finally, I threw in the towel, and asked my parents to send me abroad. Anywhere else on this earth would surely be better. Given his academic performance in his high school, it's unlikely he got a scholarship to a leading UK private high school (Hurtwood House checking his Linkedin). Parents who can afford to send their kid to an overseas high school that charges $40k/year are not modest by Developed country standards, much less Chinese, and even less so Hebeinese.
kk58 9y ago
His connclusion mirror's the central tenant of bhagavad gita. "Karmanye vadika raste ma phalechu kadachana". Do your duty as best as you can , without expectation of results
- Nomentatus 9y ago
  And Orel Hershiser's book on pitching, a bit later.
- trowaybloway 9y ago
  I think there's a logical contradiction. Without expected return value, how could one measure how good "as best as" could be? The only resolve I can think of is to try to adjust to a blacklist instead, maybe don't expect results, but at least know when you have failed. To me, this is the same thing expressed in inverse logic. What's the negative of "expectation of results", ie. the normalization of the expression "no (expectation of results)" in constructive terms. I guess it would have to be perhaps expect failure
  - matt4077 9y ago
    The word "duty" is a clue here, and the word "result" is misunderstood. It is asking you to do what must be done, but to be modest in what you expect as return. It is rather close to the definition of integrity: To do the right thing, even when nobody's looking.
stevenwoo 9y ago
Slightly off topic, but in the early 90's I had to help rewrite the resume of the Chinese friend of a Chinese friend and she was very proud of the fact he graduated from the number one university in China. He had very poor English writing skills so I just unmangled it, did not have difficulty conversing with him, but I was not aware of the admissions difficulty being so high there compared to the Stanford/elite US universities as the writer says, this was about the time the WWW came online so was not so easy to google the answers back then.
- vostok 9y ago
  > I was not aware of the admissions difficulty being so high there compared to the Stanford/elite US universities China has a population of 1.4 billion. Peking University has 33k students and Tsinghua has 45k. Obviously this isn't a great comparison because lots of foreigners come to study in the US, but I think it does give a sense of scale.
  - mlevental 9y ago
    us has a population of about 300 million and Harvard has a student body of size 6,700. looks almost exactly proportional
- bagacrap 9y ago
  When he asked himself if British people were just way stupider than Chinese, it made me realize that whatever the Chinese education system is measuring is probably way off base compared to actual aptitude or practical ability. Just because it's highly selective doesn't mean their education is relevant.
  - erikb 9y ago
    Well in his case it brought him jobs around $500k. I would say that's something.
    - bb611 9y ago
11thEarlOfMar 9y ago
"... randomness is not merely the noise but the dominant factor. And those reasons we assign to historical events are often just ex post rationalizations. As rising generations are taught the rationalizations, they conclude that things always happen for a reason. " I didn't realize it until contemplating this statement, but this applies to interpersonal relationships as well as nations. It is the root of tolerance and acceptance. People wind up where they are largely through circumstance, not intention. Circumstance may be as finite as meeting a person in a purely random situation who then goes on to change your life. Yet we lionize persons we deem successful and study what led them there, rationalizing that the set of attributes that we can observe about them must be the cause of their success. And in speaking with them personally, you'll find, in many cases, impostor syndrome because they understand the randomness that played in their favor. I make a conscious effort to keep that in mind. It helps keep me from becoming judgmental.
- alexasmyths 9y ago
  "People wind up where they are largely through circumstance, not intention. " There may be a lot of randomness on the way to becoming, or almost becoming a doctor, but you don't get to be a doctor by randomness. See what I mean? You get to be a doctor only with quite a very long term intent and perseverance, by stacking the odds, and rolling the dice a lot. Though I get what you are saying - I also don't think that most people as of yet realize how much actual control they have over themselves and their lives, and they can possibly make it better. That's still a huge hurdle for a lot of people. I suppose those that have jumped that hurdle could often learn a little empathy for those with bad dice :)
  - Xorlev 9y ago
    "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Seneca the Younger > You get to be a doctor only with quite a very long term intent and perseverance, by stacking the odds, and rolling the dice a lot. I like that way of putting it.
  - zxcmx 9y ago
    Well if you really want to maximise your odds of becoming a doctor, the best thing you can do for yourself is choose your parents wisely. Don't choose to be born in a slum in a third world country, or a trailer park, thats gonna hurt your chances. Make sure you don't pick a family that will abuse you as you grow up. Try to make sure you at least get average genetics for general intelligence and memory (50% of people won't...). Ideally, choose to have at least one doctor as a parent (increases your odds by more than an order of magnitude). A good mentor or role model at the right time could substitute though. Of course, people _can_ control their own lives, but most people who succeed at becoming doctors were both lucky AND hard working. And I'd be willing to be that though they did work like hell to do it, a lot of doctors "sleepwalked into it" because a teacher at school or a parent told them thats what they should do.
bespoke_engnr 9y ago
> Her life, up to that point, was very similar to the life that I have been living. And I am sure that, at the time, she was as optimistic about her life as we are today about ours. But she went to the UK in 1935, and she went back to China around the founding of the People’s Republic of China. Her education abroad, in a capitalist country, and her belief in individual rights and freedom often placed her on the wrong side of various political campaigns and the Cultural Revolution. She lost numerous friends and family members, including her husband and daughter during these years. She barely survived a long period of imprisonment herself. It was not until the 1980s when she managed to get a passport and could move to live with her relatives abroad. On the ship to Hong Kong, she kept thinking about her decision to return to China all those years ago. For those of you wondering, the book he was reading is "Life and Death in Shanghai" by Cheng Nien. For me, that was the most interesting part of the article. I know very little about modern Chinese history and this seems like an interesting place to start. https://www.amazon.com/Life-Death-Shanghai-Cheng-Nien/dp/0802145167/ https://www.amazon.com/Life-Death-Shanghai-Cheng-Nien/dp/080...
- solidsnack9000 9y ago
  > (Someone once said that it is necessary to know English in order to learn about China. Important perspectives on China are only available in English and are generally not accessible on the mainland.) I wonder what other books fall into this category?
  - daltonlp 9y ago
    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/775647.The_Private_Life_of_Chairman_Mao?from_search=true https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/775647.The_Private_Life_...
mcguire 9y ago
Could someone explain the point of this article? All I'm getting are: * Everything is random. * A generic Chinese man, who did really well on one test is smarter than most people in Britain. * Americans, who are capitalists, don't seem to want to focus their lives on the supposed end goal of capitalism. * MBA programs are nuts, especially if you are on the spectrum. I'm probably wrong about most of those, but like the author, I just don't see the coherent picture.
- appleflaxen 9y ago
  my takeaway: the western stereotype of chinese education is that there is herd mentality and groupthink, but the same thing exists on the western side, just with a different herd. edit: this is highlighted by the conclusion, in which he points out the irony of the lesson from his western education (everything is luck) when the traditional message is "if you work hard you will succeed". i thought it was a great read.
  - hodgesrm 9y ago
    The sly sense of humor helped the presentation. Whatever his other qualities the author is a good writer, in a second language no less.
    - paganel 9y ago
      He reminded me of the "The Good Soldier Švejk" stories, especially the MBA part, the one with the professors telling him he can see that the author was feeling stuff, the brand thing and the part where he just told them that he wants to earn money (i.e. he was as honest as soldier Švejk was).
  - trowaybloway 9y ago
    Isn't the obvious conclusion that opportunity is a necessary prerequisite to success? In a communist or puritan philosophy that would mean it's lucky to be working, whereas the juxtaposition is virtually the same, working to be lucky. I don't see how the question for chicken-and-egg-priority matters here.
binarysolo 9y ago
Looks like the author also arrived at a similar conclusion: “It's not about the cards you're dealt, but how you play the hand.”
- pessimizer 9y ago
  It seems to me like the author arrived at nearly the exact opposite conclusion: "I learned that success comes through good luck, the right slogans, and monitoring your own—and others’—emotions."
not_that_noob 9y ago
Probably better titled “Life is a random walk”. I completely agree with his premise - ‘success’ in life, however defined, seems largely a function largely of luck. Those who see the world for what it is - rather than what received dogma teaches - understand this truth.
- jumpyhamster 9y ago
  I study testing of the sort he focuses on, and is at the core of a system he points out is more similar across Chinese and Western societies than people think. What I've come to realize is that everything he wrestles with in the essay is not hidden away, it's right there within the testing system. It's studied empirically, the markets are there, it's all in plain view. It doesn't require any special wisdom or insight and anyone trying to simplify things either way are wrong. These tests that are scrutinized bear only a modest relationship with what they are trying to measure, and what they are trying to measure is only weakly related to what people want to know. That is, the best estimates suggest that they're only correlated about .30 or .40 with actual ability or understanding in any deeper sense at most. And this is over the entire range of ability, meaning that it includes comparisons between people who score in the 2nd percentile and those who score in the 98th percentile -- a huge portion of that correlation is surely due to gross comparisons of that sort. What's sobering to me is that we know this. We know these tests are not only imperfect, but severely so. And yet we fetishize it. The money being put into the testing field is astounding. The reason of course, is because, while these tests are poor measures, they're the better than nothing. And we know that they tell us something about people, on average, across many people. I'm not sure why we overrely on these things, why these discussions are often framed in extremes, where either a test is the criterion for success, or react to it with claims that the tests are completely invalid.
- eternalban 9y ago
  Flip it: Failure of the meritorious is due to bad-luck and/or circumstance.
isoskeles 9y ago
> So I bought a heart rate monitor and checked my resting heart rate. Right around 78. And when the professor said to me in class “Puzhong, I can see that story brought up some emotions in you,” I rolled up my sleeve and checked my heart rate. It was about 77. And so I said, “nope, no emotion.” The experiment seemed to confirm my prior belief: my heart rate hardly moved, even when I was criticized, though it did jump when I became excited or laughed. Yikes. > In Communist China, I was taught that hard work would bring success. In the land of the American dream, I learned that success comes through good luck, the right slogans, and monitoring your own—and others’—emotions. I don't understand the value of this analogy. In Communist China, I was taught (something that is done to you) something false, but in the U.S. I learned (note: not taught, learned) something X. Is it true or false? Because it matters whether or not something is true or false. I'm sure the author thinks what he is writing is true, otherwise, why write it? But he just directly compared something he decided on his own to something he was taught to be true that was actually false. This is really murky, and I don't care enough about his feelings about Cambridge or Stanford or Costco to try to make any more sense of it.
- sddfd 9y ago
  Basically, the author questions the American Dream. "Hard work brings success" is paraphrasing the American Dream. The author now says he learned that success does not depend on factors that can be controlled. He uses the verb learned in contrast to taught to emphasize that he thinks this is true.
- Nomentatus 9y ago
  It's not an analogy, it's a juxtaposition. He agrees with Rubin, and has told anecdotes that support that position. You just don't want to believe his conclusion, and Rubin's. That's your right, but to say that he has no position, that it's all murky and there is no conclusion; therefore you can reject his conclusion, is literally absurd.
- asdffdsa 9y ago
  Well from the beginning, the author only claims to offer "my candid observations" and not verifiable statements that are true or false. In fact, the whole article is clouded with ambiguity, probably because he doesn't want to come off as arrogant even though he secretly is, so he dials back on definite judgments. I saw it as more of an expression of irony, that it was unexpected to learn the ideals of the "American Dream" in communist China, and essentially unlearn them while actually living in America. The whole "learned" rather than "taught" was the way he arrived independently at his personal beliefs contrary to what he was forced to learn in school or college.
paulpauper 9y ago
Eventually I was able to meet the chief financial officer of my favorite company, Costco. He told me that they don’t hire any MBAs. Everyone starts by pushing trolleys. (I have seriously thought about doing just that. But my wife is strongly against it.) Maybe, I thought, that is why the company is so successful—no MBAs! that's pretty amazing..is this really true? So if someone applied for marketing or accounting, they would still have to push carts?
- k4ch0w 9y ago
  I did some consulting work at Costco. Their IT is all people that were once cashiers/trolley pushers. They pride themselves having staff loyal to the company and in turn take care of them. I would assume it's true pretty much everywhere else around the company.
  - edflsafoiewq 9y ago
    Costco is infamously obsessed with seniority.
- jwhitlark 9y ago
  I don't know about Costco, but... The MBA was originally designed for people who had worked their way up from the bottom, and needed to backfill the theory.
  - eschaton 9y ago
    Originally. But of course the MBA was turned into a gatekeeping/filtering mechanism, to ensue only people with the right pedigree could be hired into roles “requiring” one.
Exo_Tartarus 9y ago
I'm not exactly sure what the point of the article is or what the author is trying to say. It's pretty much an abbreviated biography bookended by some attempts at philosophizing. It is interesting to hear how much easier the author found his British curriculum than his Chinese. I was also amused by how he mocked his Stanford MBA curriculum, and how the career office people were dismissive of his passion to make money. Smart hard working people succeed much more often than they don't. Born into difficult circumstances, their probability of 'success' (accumulating prestige and wealth) is much higher than for others. Of course sometimes circumstances are too oppressive to overcome, and sometimes the stupid and lazy are elevated in spite of themselves... But these are exceptions.
- addicted 9y ago
  "Smart hard working people succeed much more often than they don't." A smart hard working person today might be a hard working computer scientist. Their skills would be absolutely worthless even a few centuries ago. Their skills would be absolutely worthless even today depending on where they are born and to the parents they are born. I'm not convinced "smart and hard working" are not post hoc descriptors themselves.
  - ebola1717 9y ago
    Plus, that sentiment is only true with a narrow set of upper middle class, white collar assumptions. What about hard working retail workers or factory workers? Or look how vast the race and gender disparities are...
    - Exo_Tartarus 9y ago
      Maybe they don't want to be anything other than retail or factory workers? Many people don't have ambition, or they have limited ambition.
      - timthelion 9y ago
        maybe they don't want to be anything other than factory workers. That doesn't mean that they are fundamentally less valuable and less worthy of being paid their fair share.
PoliteTwig 9y ago
I find it interesting that the author only considers America from the top down - from the perspectives of institutions (Stanford, Goldman Sachs, Costco) and slogans (American Dream, All people deserve to live healthy lives). Part of me wonders if that’s due to America's own marketing, or due to his upbringing in a more totalitarian government, but for most Americans these perspectives are just as foreign. At dinner tables and in churches all across the country, you hear people say "God is in control”. You’ll hear reminders to be humble and appreciate what you have, because anyone can get ill at any time, or lose all all their belongings in fire, or any number of bad events. The chaos out there is real, whether one believes in it or not. And there's an even bigger danger in trying to control the chaos, and history has plenty of examples (Mao's China and USSR most recent). The limited government in America was founded on a distrust of power, top-down control, and people who want to control the world. Without that bottom-up perspective, America will never make sense.
- jraines 9y ago
  This is a good point, but there's an awful lot of post-hoc Just World fallacy wrapped up in those same statements of faith. The really spurious ones - like 9/11 or Katrina being divine punishment - get media coverage but there're more bland ones that are actually more harmful; like disease or disaster being all part of God's plan. It's all good for living a life where you have to cope with what you can't directly control, but not so good when it comes to supporting policy that aims to take action on healthcare, climate change, etc. I'm not saying this to support any specific existing policy proposal, just that when/if the "right" one comes it's unlikely to undergo a rational debate.
  - icebraining 9y ago
    How does that tie with the statistics showing US citizens - and in particular more religious people - as good donors for charities and disaster victims? Seems contradictory.
    - jraines 9y ago
      It's complicated & kind of orthogonal. I am not trying to paint all religious people with the Pat Robertson-style example that I pointed out as egregious. This isn't an anti-religion post; it's just about the downside of thinking something was destined/planned/ordained just because it happened.
zcase 9y ago
"Rather, the increase in inflation was due to things like tax increases, exchange rate fluctuations, oil price moves, etc." It seems to me that tax cutting could lead to increased consumption and therefore a reduction in GDP slack and upward pressure on prices (inflation). Why is it that tax increases would lead to inflation?
- fspeech 9y ago
  An increase in sales tax or more likely VAT in the UK will immediately show up in prices as inflation. You may be thinking of income tax which may indeed have a different effect depending on the circumstances.
- TheGrassyKnoll 9y ago
  Either way, we can all sleep at night. Goldman Sachs made money...
- thyrsus 9y ago
  It depends on what the tax increase or tax decrease affect. If a tax cut goes predominantly to those who invest in greater productivity, then increased supply can drop prices - but only if that investment is more efficient than consequently relinquished government investment. These things are horribly difficult to measure. Perhaps Ukrainian defense spending is a total waste, and should cease with a corresponding tax cut. Perhaps it is preventing a transfer of common wealth to an oligarch, and is the most important investment the country makes. I'm quite sure I don't know.
typetehcodez 9y ago
This story immediately reminded me of Scott Adams. He spent some time working on financial models before writing Dilbert. If you can stomach polarizing political viewpoints from a cartoonist, I would highly recommend reading his non-Dilbert books and giving his blog a thorough reading. His reflections on life touch on the role of luck, the limitations of prediction models, and framing worldviews from multiple perspectives as a way to narrow down on success, influence, and the very meaning of life.
- erikb 9y ago
  This is the second time someone suggests him. But there is a lot to read. Can you make suggestion for a place to start? Like what's your favorite article? How did it change your view on the world?
iheartstartup 9y ago
he misses many points, including the meaning of the phrase "long-term greedy". It is not about "everyone else in the market was short-term greedy and, as a result, we took all their money. Since traders like money, this was inspiring.", but a philosophy of enlightened self-interest, which I suspect would resonate with the class and professor more. Yet he subtly uses this as an anecdote about how MBAs are dumb and the classes "herd mentality". What aarogance!
gleenn 9y ago
"Have I gotten smarter? Or is it just that British people are stupider than the Chinese?" Wow, false dichotomy and either racism or ego, take your pick. Hard to keep reading after that.
SadWebDeveloper 9y ago
> UK’s university system is considered superior to China’s,..., about one in ten applicants gets into Oxbridge in the UK, ...,but in Hebei province in China, where I am from, only one in fifteen hundred applicants gets into Peking or Qinghua University "western universities" aren't only for "the best and brightest" but also for those who can afford it, this narrowly reduces the number of applicants.
bsaul 9y ago
I can't help but think that the conclusion being "whatever happens happens, and your actions have very little to do with what your life's going to be" is a very zen / taoism / asian philosophy cliché. Maybe the reason the west is successful lies in the belief that individuals matters. If that's the case, then i suppose the OP still has a long way to go.
- wu-ikkyu 9y ago
  Maybe there's a balance to be struck between the two ideologies: that seemingly insignificant individual actions can have profound effects, while also accepting the fact that there are infinite environmental variables that we have negligible control over which influence every single one of those actions.
  - bsaul 9y ago
    i don't think you need to "accept" the fact that there are infinite variables, or that you're not all-that-powerful. It's pretty much a given, and it's something you realise at 2 year old, when you really want to play with that ball, or lift that rock, or pretty much anything grown up do, but you can't. And as you're growing up, nature is always there to remind you that you're nothing. IMHO, the role of education in the most general sense (encompassing the cultural background you're evolving in) is to help you think that you need to keep trying to make a difference, and not give up, because maybe one time in your life you'll accomplish something, and that'll be worth it.
    - wu-ikkyu 9y ago
      >you realise at 2 year old, when you really want to play with that ball, or lift that rock, or pretty much anything grown up do Most two year olds can't form complex sentences, and so have yet to be indoctrinated into their culture's ideologies. It seems like the context of this whole thread is moreso about economic ideology than basic physics.
- mazerackham 9y ago
  But maybe not, and probably not.
throw2016 9y ago
Its an interesting piece and some of the responses here seem uncharitable even defensive, as if he has questioned sacred gods. It's not individuals reacting but jingoism, our generation was brought up on the idea of globalism and humanism, that we can connect as individuals. But as one gets older it seems jingoism is as alive as ever, only concealed better, where some things are taken for granted and not to be questioned while pointing fingers at others, judging others and making negative assumptions is perfectly ok. Reluctance to introspect on your own society while cheering on those who criticize their own is a losing game.
thetruthseeker1 9y ago
I thought it was a good/enjoyable article and it shed light on many things for me. Reading some of the comments below, and having known some Chinese people ( I am not east asian) I want to point out that it seems like many people missed the intention/ tone of the author. I think his intention was not to brag as some people have misunderstood, but to provide context to how he got to where he got to. His communication style is different compared to the western style of communication. There is no single coherent message he is trying to drive purposefully or tacitly, but my guess is he was hoping you learn whatever you can from his experience and his way of thought. Sure the article title could have had the words ‘random’ and ‘musings’ in the same sentence..... meh!
- matt4077 9y ago
  I got a sense of a sort of extremely dry, British humour, with a hint of self-deprecation, from it. Which I thoroughly enjoyed.
- hokkos 9y ago
  This is a story about randomness, the style follows.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
KaoruAoiShiho 9y ago
> In Communist China, I was taught that hard work would bring success. In the land of the American dream, I learned that success comes through good luck, the right slogans, and monitoring your own—and others’—emotions. FTFY: > In highschool, I was taught that hard work would bring success. In college, I learned that success comes through fooling people with good marketing.
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mlinksva 9y ago
> One class was about strategy. It focused on how corporate mottos and logos could inspire employees. Probably not intended as such, but I'll take it as a hilarious send up of "strategy" and will recall it whenever I witness "strategy" being used vacuously.
- grot 9y ago
  I think he meant it. His English is very fluent throughout the article.
  - wolfgke 9y ago
    As a non-native speaker I say that there is a huge difference between speaking/writing fluent English and doing this in a way that satisfies "unwritten cultural conventions". For my English, for example, native speakers tend to say that it is actually quite correct, but I have a tendency to use words in a specific way in which few native speaker would use them.
    - grot 9y ago
      I am a non-native english speaker too; I guess I bristle at the the reading that this man isn't in control of his english when he writes with obvious proficiency, a reading I suspect, would not at all be in question were his name John Foster Edwards, or Henry Wickham or whatever Anglo-Saxon name you wish to replace his name with. I see your point though. I think he does use words in ways that native speakers do not use, but in his anecdotes -- I think he's actually playing up his Chineseness for the comic effect, and he's very much aware of what's happening.
alexasmyths 9y ago
The most odd thing for me was the bit about how he didn't understand how 'long-term greedy' would not inspire most people. Also - we should consider that the kinds of kids who grow up super talented, go to Goldman and top Schools etc. are probably not very representative of the Chinese population.
dibstern 9y ago
I’m only part way through this so far, but it seems like you think in terms of absolutes -> either the world is entirely random, or it is entirely causal. Why can it not be a mix of both, of coincidence and causal relationships, some of which are intentionally planned.
stuartaxelowen 9y ago
All patterns are post rationalizations.
brobdingnagians 9y ago
1. People who believe they can affect their own future and have control over there circumstances tend to have higher self-esteem and happiness. That tells you at least something about what you might _want_ to believe. 2. Montesquieu had a theory that people in history rode the wave of what was happening at the time, so Napoleon would not have become Napoleon if he was born in a different time, _but_ if Napoleon had not take control, someone else would have, since circumstances were ripe. Therefore, a person who knows how to read the events & choose a good strategy for the time in which they live will usually be at least moderately successful, and someone incapable of that will nearly always be mediocre. There are outliers and extremely fortunate or unfortunate events, but part of strategy is not becoming a negative outlier and optimizing for higher success. You may miss a specific opportunity, but if you are always looking for opportunity, you will find one of the ones that come along.
Hendrikto 9y ago
> Eventually I was able to meet the chief financial officer of my favorite company, Costco. He told me that they don’t hire any MBAs. Everyone starts by pushing trolleys. The CFO went to university himself. What an ass...
throwaway71324 9y ago
It's rather poetic that the author who was marinated in the cold-hard "we know best" culture of Communism, then in its self-congratulatory more stochastic variant of occidental capitalism, to come back to what was once the core wisdom of the orient, yet not appreciate it. Pity that while the Europeans destroyed the traditions of much of Asia's (incl., sadly, much of India's), that the Chinese themselves destroyed a large part of their own heritage.
sgt101 9y ago
Success or failure - these are the wrong perspectives. Happiness, fulfilment and experience; when you're on your death bed you'll not think back warmly to all the money you made, or the great job titles you held.
hacker314159 9y ago
"I told him about the black swan I kept on my desk as a reminder that low probability events happen with high frequency" Uh... wouldn't low probability events happen with low frequency? Am I missing something?
- iakh 9y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory
lilfatbitch 9y ago
>I had the second-worst grades in the class and had to sit at a desk perpendicular to the blackboard so that the teacher could keep a close eye on me Maybe he had the second-worst grades from not knowing the meaning of "perpendicular" even though he studied math

533 points by monsieurpng 9y ago

I'm curious for other immigrants with kids, how difficult is it to break from the more deterministic "study hardest for success" vs relaxing a bit to optimize for happiness and embracing the impact of luck.

rsync 9y ago
"... break from the more deterministic "study hardest for success" vs relaxing a bit to optimize for happiness and embracing the impact of luck." Ahh, yes - the third generation ... "We are an immigrant nation. The first generation works their fingers to the bone making things; the next generation goes to college and innovates new ideas. The third generation snowboards and takes improv classes."[1] [1] http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-10-11/business/ct-biz-1011-bf-donaghy-quotes-20121011_1_quotes-jack-donaghy-business-etiquette http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-10-11/business/ct-bi...
- SadWebDeveloper 9y ago
  The fourth generation lives from the third and two well, the fifth generation again works their fingers to the bone making things.
  - nine_k 9y ago
    ...unless all the factories are already overseas.
- krylon 9y ago
  Totally OT, but strangely, 30 Rock appears to be getting better every time I re-watch it. Most other shows tend to get on my nerves after a few times, but 30 Rock just keeps getting more enjoyable.

roberthluo 9y ago

Reading about the west from a Chinese perspective is a breath of fresh air. Similar in background to the author, I have come to the same conclusion; that everything in life is based on a bit of luck and achievement. He also absorbed, which is somewhat unusual in my opinion the differences between U.S. and the U.K. I think he has a much more nuanced view of all three societies that he has written.

grot 9y ago
I also come from a similar background, and his points also seem poignant to me -- the first, in my reading, is about the lottery of birth; would he or I or you have been successful (with presumably our predisposition to succeed in academia) in China merely 70 years ago? Perhaps not. The second, related, is that we should be grateful for the achievements which might naturally appear as the product of our own labor, and (I think) also to forgive others for the achievements that appear to be the product of their labor. Though implicit, I think this article actually makes an interesting implication about jealousy. What exactly is there to be jealous of in another person if luck, and randomness plays so much in our fortunes? This article is also a warning against self-help. So much determines our fortunes besides the advice we can take or the effort we make. The best is what -- rolling with the punches --
- roberthluo 9y ago
  I agree with your points, except the part on jealously and warning against self-help. I view his life similar to investing, as he mentioned: being "long term greedy." I thought him and his parent's story illustrated this. It is unlikely that his parents had the best schooling in the world, but they were successful financially somewhat. When their son struggled in school, they enrolled him somewhere else and gave him more resources. He used that and achieve more by attending the most prestigious institution in the world. While it is likely that luck played a huge role, ie. China's market liberalization and growth, U.K. schools wanting to make more revenue, his stint at GS. He and his parents needed to be there in position the first place to take advantage of all of that. I do not think this is his point to warn against self help, rather than an examination of why and how he got to where he did. Luck only comes when you are in position to seize it. Yes despite your best efforts, it might never come. But it can come when you never expect it because you are in the right place and the right time.

fahayekwasright 9y ago

Interesting that in one section, he casts doubt on the notion that mathematical models can accurately describe reality, and in another, he uses a heart rate monitor to conclude that he doesn’t have emotions.

stevenwoo 9y ago
Two things - a.) the scientific hypothesis that heart rate is elevated via uncontrolled nervous system response in the human body is well accepted versus most economic hypothesis appearing to be post hoc explanations rather than theories that can actually predict the future as he clearly writes the second thing out when critiquing some things his professors said b.) the over stated diagnosis - maybe he's slightly psychopathic or so unfamiliar with Western centric interpersonal culture it doesn't affect him. :)
dwaltrip 9y ago
I don't think our economic models are comparable in accuracy or reliability to a heart rate monitor.
- quicklime 9y ago
  I'm not sure that's the right comparison. A heart rate monitor is not a mathematical model of human emotion, it's just a measurement tool. And it's one that is no more accurate or reliable than the tools we use to measure the price of a trade. Real world markets are much more complicated than economic models, just as human emotion is more complicated than the author's model of no change heart rate = no change in emotion.
- aaavl2821 9y ago
  Nor are heart rate monitors an accurate or reliable predictor of emotion
analog31 9y ago
I thought it was brilliant. He "innocently" exposed the whole class as a hoax.

bouvin 9y ago

> "In Communism, the future is certain; it is only the past that might not be" A fine essay, the above quote gave me a chuckle.

kunimu 9y ago
I'm not so sure what is meant by it. Adherents of Marxism-Leninism utilise the method of dialectical materialism to analyse the past and to provide a model for the structure of the future based on the resolution of dialectical contradictions. The contradictions of feudalism led to capitalism, and the contradictions of capitalism (the value-form in particular, class antagonism) lead to Communism.
- Malician 9y ago
  When the author describes "communism" or "capitalism" he appears to be writing about his experience with them as he has seem them actually practiced, rather than the theory of how they are supposed to work according to their adherents.
  - kunimu 9y ago
    Upon second reading, that makes more sense, however it would be clearer if this were the case. "Chinese Communism" can refer either to the ideology which the CCP claim to adhere themselves to, or it can refer to the actual state-capitalist bureaucracy as practiced in China.
    - ghostbrainalpha 9y ago
      It could definitely be clearer. But the more you have to explain a joke the less funny it is.
- empath75 9y ago
  He’s talking about actual communist political systems, not theoretical communism. Look at how China censored mention of tienanmen square, or how Stalin disappeared people from books and photographs.

rdtsc 9y ago

> My parents by then had reached the conclusion that I was not going anywhere promising in China and were ready to send me abroad for high school. Maybe the title should be "The Western Elite from a Chinese Elite Perspective". Surely sending kids to school to UK as plan B is not in the average Chinese family's abilities. Doesn't mean we should discount the article or its ideas but it's useful to keep the author's background in mind.

hollerith 9y ago
Also relevant is that fact that the article contains that statement, "I am the child of modest workers".
- vostok 9y ago
  I wouldn't blame the author for this. I have a similar background in many ways. It took me a long time and a good deal of luck to realize that I am not the child of modest workers.
  - aalleavitch 9y ago
    I agree, these judgements can only ever be made relative to one's own perspective. It's important not to take at face value someone else's notion of "modest worker", and even more important not to take your own notion at face value either.
  - walshemj 9y ago
    That's true certainly in my teens I wouldn't have thought that though I do come from a middle class back ground as would those went to public school instead of a comprehensive. I suppose it started to dawn on me when mum commented that if we had stayed in Birmingham they would have used my Grandfather (a headmaster) to try and pull strings to get me into Kings Edwards, BTW this is "the" King Edwards (JRR Tolkien's alma mata) that takes turn with the Oratory for the top school in the country.
- usaar333 9y ago
  > Yet I had to do it every day. At the end-of-year exam, I scored second from the bottom of the class—the same place where I began in first grade. But this time it was much harder to accept, after the glory I had enjoyed just one year earlier and the huge amount of effort I had put into studying this year. Finally, I threw in the towel, and asked my parents to send me abroad. Anywhere else on this earth would surely be better. Given his academic performance in his high school, it's unlikely he got a scholarship to a leading UK private high school (Hurtwood House checking his Linkedin). Parents who can afford to send their kid to an overseas high school that charges $40k/year are not modest by Developed country standards, much less Chinese, and even less so Hebeinese.

kk58 9y ago

His connclusion mirror's the central tenant of bhagavad gita. "Karmanye vadika raste ma phalechu kadachana". Do your duty as best as you can , without expectation of results

Nomentatus 9y ago
And Orel Hershiser's book on pitching, a bit later.
trowaybloway 9y ago
I think there's a logical contradiction. Without expected return value, how could one measure how good "as best as" could be? The only resolve I can think of is to try to adjust to a blacklist instead, maybe don't expect results, but at least know when you have failed. To me, this is the same thing expressed in inverse logic. What's the negative of "expectation of results", ie. the normalization of the expression "no (expectation of results)" in constructive terms. I guess it would have to be perhaps expect failure
- matt4077 9y ago
  The word "duty" is a clue here, and the word "result" is misunderstood. It is asking you to do what must be done, but to be modest in what you expect as return. It is rather close to the definition of integrity: To do the right thing, even when nobody's looking.

stevenwoo 9y ago

Slightly off topic, but in the early 90's I had to help rewrite the resume of the Chinese friend of a Chinese friend and she was very proud of the fact he graduated from the number one university in China. He had very poor English writing skills so I just unmangled it, did not have difficulty conversing with him, but I was not aware of the admissions difficulty being so high there compared to the Stanford/elite US universities as the writer says, this was about the time the WWW came online so was not so easy to google the answers back then.

vostok 9y ago
> I was not aware of the admissions difficulty being so high there compared to the Stanford/elite US universities China has a population of 1.4 billion. Peking University has 33k students and Tsinghua has 45k. Obviously this isn't a great comparison because lots of foreigners come to study in the US, but I think it does give a sense of scale.
- mlevental 9y ago
  us has a population of about 300 million and Harvard has a student body of size 6,700. looks almost exactly proportional
bagacrap 9y ago
When he asked himself if British people were just way stupider than Chinese, it made me realize that whatever the Chinese education system is measuring is probably way off base compared to actual aptitude or practical ability. Just because it's highly selective doesn't mean their education is relevant.
- erikb 9y ago
  Well in his case it brought him jobs around $500k. I would say that's something.
  - bb611 9y ago

11thEarlOfMar 9y ago

"... randomness is not merely the noise but the dominant factor. And those reasons we assign to historical events are often just ex post rationalizations. As rising generations are taught the rationalizations, they conclude that things always happen for a reason. " I didn't realize it until contemplating this statement, but this applies to interpersonal relationships as well as nations. It is the root of tolerance and acceptance. People wind up where they are largely through circumstance, not intention. Circumstance may be as finite as meeting a person in a purely random situation who then goes on to change your life. Yet we lionize persons we deem successful and study what led them there, rationalizing that the set of attributes that we can observe about them must be the cause of their success. And in speaking with them personally, you'll find, in many cases, impostor syndrome because they understand the randomness that played in their favor. I make a conscious effort to keep that in mind. It helps keep me from becoming judgmental.

alexasmyths 9y ago
"People wind up where they are largely through circumstance, not intention. " There may be a lot of randomness on the way to becoming, or almost becoming a doctor, but you don't get to be a doctor by randomness. See what I mean? You get to be a doctor only with quite a very long term intent and perseverance, by stacking the odds, and rolling the dice a lot. Though I get what you are saying - I also don't think that most people as of yet realize how much actual control they have over themselves and their lives, and they can possibly make it better. That's still a huge hurdle for a lot of people. I suppose those that have jumped that hurdle could often learn a little empathy for those with bad dice :)
- Xorlev 9y ago
  "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Seneca the Younger > You get to be a doctor only with quite a very long term intent and perseverance, by stacking the odds, and rolling the dice a lot. I like that way of putting it.
- zxcmx 9y ago
  Well if you really want to maximise your odds of becoming a doctor, the best thing you can do for yourself is choose your parents wisely. Don't choose to be born in a slum in a third world country, or a trailer park, thats gonna hurt your chances. Make sure you don't pick a family that will abuse you as you grow up. Try to make sure you at least get average genetics for general intelligence and memory (50% of people won't...). Ideally, choose to have at least one doctor as a parent (increases your odds by more than an order of magnitude). A good mentor or role model at the right time could substitute though. Of course, people _can_ control their own lives, but most people who succeed at becoming doctors were both lucky AND hard working. And I'd be willing to be that though they did work like hell to do it, a lot of doctors "sleepwalked into it" because a teacher at school or a parent told them thats what they should do.

bespoke_engnr 9y ago

> Her life, up to that point, was very similar to the life that I have been living. And I am sure that, at the time, she was as optimistic about her life as we are today about ours. But she went to the UK in 1935, and she went back to China around the founding of the People’s Republic of China. Her education abroad, in a capitalist country, and her belief in individual rights and freedom often placed her on the wrong side of various political campaigns and the Cultural Revolution. She lost numerous friends and family members, including her husband and daughter during these years. She barely survived a long period of imprisonment herself. It was not until the 1980s when she managed to get a passport and could move to live with her relatives abroad. On the ship to Hong Kong, she kept thinking about her decision to return to China all those years ago. For those of you wondering, the book he was reading is "Life and Death in Shanghai" by Cheng Nien. For me, that was the most interesting part of the article. I know very little about modern Chinese history and this seems like an interesting place to start. https://www.amazon.com/Life-Death-Shanghai-Cheng-Nien/dp/0802145167/ https://www.amazon.com/Life-Death-Shanghai-Cheng-Nien/dp/080...

solidsnack9000 9y ago
> (Someone once said that it is necessary to know English in order to learn about China. Important perspectives on China are only available in English and are generally not accessible on the mainland.) I wonder what other books fall into this category?
- daltonlp 9y ago
  https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/775647.The_Private_Life_of_Chairman_Mao?from_search=true https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/775647.The_Private_Life_...

mcguire 9y ago

Could someone explain the point of this article? All I'm getting are: * Everything is random. * A generic Chinese man, who did really well on one test is smarter than most people in Britain. * Americans, who are capitalists, don't seem to want to focus their lives on the supposed end goal of capitalism. * MBA programs are nuts, especially if you are on the spectrum. I'm probably wrong about most of those, but like the author, I just don't see the coherent picture.

appleflaxen 9y ago
my takeaway: the western stereotype of chinese education is that there is herd mentality and groupthink, but the same thing exists on the western side, just with a different herd. edit: this is highlighted by the conclusion, in which he points out the irony of the lesson from his western education (everything is luck) when the traditional message is "if you work hard you will succeed". i thought it was a great read.
- hodgesrm 9y ago
  The sly sense of humor helped the presentation. Whatever his other qualities the author is a good writer, in a second language no less.
  - paganel 9y ago
    He reminded me of the "The Good Soldier Švejk" stories, especially the MBA part, the one with the professors telling him he can see that the author was feeling stuff, the brand thing and the part where he just told them that he wants to earn money (i.e. he was as honest as soldier Švejk was).
- trowaybloway 9y ago
  Isn't the obvious conclusion that opportunity is a necessary prerequisite to success? In a communist or puritan philosophy that would mean it's lucky to be working, whereas the juxtaposition is virtually the same, working to be lucky. I don't see how the question for chicken-and-egg-priority matters here.

binarysolo 9y ago

Looks like the author also arrived at a similar conclusion: “It's not about the cards you're dealt, but how you play the hand.”

pessimizer 9y ago
It seems to me like the author arrived at nearly the exact opposite conclusion: "I learned that success comes through good luck, the right slogans, and monitoring your own—and others’—emotions."

not_that_noob 9y ago

Probably better titled “Life is a random walk”. I completely agree with his premise - ‘success’ in life, however defined, seems largely a function largely of luck. Those who see the world for what it is - rather than what received dogma teaches - understand this truth.

jumpyhamster 9y ago
I study testing of the sort he focuses on, and is at the core of a system he points out is more similar across Chinese and Western societies than people think. What I've come to realize is that everything he wrestles with in the essay is not hidden away, it's right there within the testing system. It's studied empirically, the markets are there, it's all in plain view. It doesn't require any special wisdom or insight and anyone trying to simplify things either way are wrong. These tests that are scrutinized bear only a modest relationship with what they are trying to measure, and what they are trying to measure is only weakly related to what people want to know. That is, the best estimates suggest that they're only correlated about .30 or .40 with actual ability or understanding in any deeper sense at most. And this is over the entire range of ability, meaning that it includes comparisons between people who score in the 2nd percentile and those who score in the 98th percentile -- a huge portion of that correlation is surely due to gross comparisons of that sort. What's sobering to me is that we know this. We know these tests are not only imperfect, but severely so. And yet we fetishize it. The money being put into the testing field is astounding. The reason of course, is because, while these tests are poor measures, they're the better than nothing. And we know that they tell us something about people, on average, across many people. I'm not sure why we overrely on these things, why these discussions are often framed in extremes, where either a test is the criterion for success, or react to it with claims that the tests are completely invalid.
eternalban 9y ago
Flip it: Failure of the meritorious is due to bad-luck and/or circumstance.

isoskeles 9y ago

> So I bought a heart rate monitor and checked my resting heart rate. Right around 78. And when the professor said to me in class “Puzhong, I can see that story brought up some emotions in you,” I rolled up my sleeve and checked my heart rate. It was about 77. And so I said, “nope, no emotion.” The experiment seemed to confirm my prior belief: my heart rate hardly moved, even when I was criticized, though it did jump when I became excited or laughed. Yikes. > In Communist China, I was taught that hard work would bring success. In the land of the American dream, I learned that success comes through good luck, the right slogans, and monitoring your own—and others’—emotions. I don't understand the value of this analogy. In Communist China, I was taught (something that is done to you) something false, but in the U.S. I learned (note: not taught, learned) something X. Is it true or false? Because it matters whether or not something is true or false. I'm sure the author thinks what he is writing is true, otherwise, why write it? But he just directly compared something he decided on his own to something he was taught to be true that was actually false. This is really murky, and I don't care enough about his feelings about Cambridge or Stanford or Costco to try to make any more sense of it.

sddfd 9y ago
Basically, the author questions the American Dream. "Hard work brings success" is paraphrasing the American Dream. The author now says he learned that success does not depend on factors that can be controlled. He uses the verb learned in contrast to taught to emphasize that he thinks this is true.
Nomentatus 9y ago
It's not an analogy, it's a juxtaposition. He agrees with Rubin, and has told anecdotes that support that position. You just don't want to believe his conclusion, and Rubin's. That's your right, but to say that he has no position, that it's all murky and there is no conclusion; therefore you can reject his conclusion, is literally absurd.
asdffdsa 9y ago
Well from the beginning, the author only claims to offer "my candid observations" and not verifiable statements that are true or false. In fact, the whole article is clouded with ambiguity, probably because he doesn't want to come off as arrogant even though he secretly is, so he dials back on definite judgments. I saw it as more of an expression of irony, that it was unexpected to learn the ideals of the "American Dream" in communist China, and essentially unlearn them while actually living in America. The whole "learned" rather than "taught" was the way he arrived independently at his personal beliefs contrary to what he was forced to learn in school or college.

paulpauper 9y ago

Eventually I was able to meet the chief financial officer of my favorite company, Costco. He told me that they don’t hire any MBAs. Everyone starts by pushing trolleys. (I have seriously thought about doing just that. But my wife is strongly against it.) Maybe, I thought, that is why the company is so successful—no MBAs! that's pretty amazing..is this really true? So if someone applied for marketing or accounting, they would still have to push carts?

k4ch0w 9y ago
I did some consulting work at Costco. Their IT is all people that were once cashiers/trolley pushers. They pride themselves having staff loyal to the company and in turn take care of them. I would assume it's true pretty much everywhere else around the company.
- edflsafoiewq 9y ago
  Costco is infamously obsessed with seniority.
jwhitlark 9y ago
I don't know about Costco, but... The MBA was originally designed for people who had worked their way up from the bottom, and needed to backfill the theory.
- eschaton 9y ago
  Originally. But of course the MBA was turned into a gatekeeping/filtering mechanism, to ensue only people with the right pedigree could be hired into roles “requiring” one.

Exo_Tartarus 9y ago

I'm not exactly sure what the point of the article is or what the author is trying to say. It's pretty much an abbreviated biography bookended by some attempts at philosophizing. It is interesting to hear how much easier the author found his British curriculum than his Chinese. I was also amused by how he mocked his Stanford MBA curriculum, and how the career office people were dismissive of his passion to make money. Smart hard working people succeed much more often than they don't. Born into difficult circumstances, their probability of 'success' (accumulating prestige and wealth) is much higher than for others. Of course sometimes circumstances are too oppressive to overcome, and sometimes the stupid and lazy are elevated in spite of themselves... But these are exceptions.

addicted 9y ago
"Smart hard working people succeed much more often than they don't." A smart hard working person today might be a hard working computer scientist. Their skills would be absolutely worthless even a few centuries ago. Their skills would be absolutely worthless even today depending on where they are born and to the parents they are born. I'm not convinced "smart and hard working" are not post hoc descriptors themselves.
- ebola1717 9y ago
  Plus, that sentiment is only true with a narrow set of upper middle class, white collar assumptions. What about hard working retail workers or factory workers? Or look how vast the race and gender disparities are...
  - Exo_Tartarus 9y ago
    Maybe they don't want to be anything other than retail or factory workers? Many people don't have ambition, or they have limited ambition.
    - timthelion 9y ago
      maybe they don't want to be anything other than factory workers. That doesn't mean that they are fundamentally less valuable and less worthy of being paid their fair share.

PoliteTwig 9y ago

I find it interesting that the author only considers America from the top down - from the perspectives of institutions (Stanford, Goldman Sachs, Costco) and slogans (American Dream, All people deserve to live healthy lives). Part of me wonders if that’s due to America's own marketing, or due to his upbringing in a more totalitarian government, but for most Americans these perspectives are just as foreign. At dinner tables and in churches all across the country, you hear people say "God is in control”. You’ll hear reminders to be humble and appreciate what you have, because anyone can get ill at any time, or lose all all their belongings in fire, or any number of bad events. The chaos out there is real, whether one believes in it or not. And there's an even bigger danger in trying to control the chaos, and history has plenty of examples (Mao's China and USSR most recent). The limited government in America was founded on a distrust of power, top-down control, and people who want to control the world. Without that bottom-up perspective, America will never make sense.

jraines 9y ago
This is a good point, but there's an awful lot of post-hoc Just World fallacy wrapped up in those same statements of faith. The really spurious ones - like 9/11 or Katrina being divine punishment - get media coverage but there're more bland ones that are actually more harmful; like disease or disaster being all part of God's plan. It's all good for living a life where you have to cope with what you can't directly control, but not so good when it comes to supporting policy that aims to take action on healthcare, climate change, etc. I'm not saying this to support any specific existing policy proposal, just that when/if the "right" one comes it's unlikely to undergo a rational debate.
- icebraining 9y ago
  How does that tie with the statistics showing US citizens - and in particular more religious people - as good donors for charities and disaster victims? Seems contradictory.
  - jraines 9y ago
    It's complicated & kind of orthogonal. I am not trying to paint all religious people with the Pat Robertson-style example that I pointed out as egregious. This isn't an anti-religion post; it's just about the downside of thinking something was destined/planned/ordained just because it happened.

zcase 9y ago

"Rather, the increase in inflation was due to things like tax increases, exchange rate fluctuations, oil price moves, etc." It seems to me that tax cutting could lead to increased consumption and therefore a reduction in GDP slack and upward pressure on prices (inflation). Why is it that tax increases would lead to inflation?

fspeech 9y ago
An increase in sales tax or more likely VAT in the UK will immediately show up in prices as inflation. You may be thinking of income tax which may indeed have a different effect depending on the circumstances.
TheGrassyKnoll 9y ago
Either way, we can all sleep at night. Goldman Sachs made money...
thyrsus 9y ago
It depends on what the tax increase or tax decrease affect. If a tax cut goes predominantly to those who invest in greater productivity, then increased supply can drop prices - but only if that investment is more efficient than consequently relinquished government investment. These things are horribly difficult to measure. Perhaps Ukrainian defense spending is a total waste, and should cease with a corresponding tax cut. Perhaps it is preventing a transfer of common wealth to an oligarch, and is the most important investment the country makes. I'm quite sure I don't know.

typetehcodez 9y ago

This story immediately reminded me of Scott Adams. He spent some time working on financial models before writing Dilbert. If you can stomach polarizing political viewpoints from a cartoonist, I would highly recommend reading his non-Dilbert books and giving his blog a thorough reading. His reflections on life touch on the role of luck, the limitations of prediction models, and framing worldviews from multiple perspectives as a way to narrow down on success, influence, and the very meaning of life.

erikb 9y ago
This is the second time someone suggests him. But there is a lot to read. Can you make suggestion for a place to start? Like what's your favorite article? How did it change your view on the world?

iheartstartup 9y ago

he misses many points, including the meaning of the phrase "long-term greedy". It is not about "everyone else in the market was short-term greedy and, as a result, we took all their money. Since traders like money, this was inspiring.", but a philosophy of enlightened self-interest, which I suspect would resonate with the class and professor more. Yet he subtly uses this as an anecdote about how MBAs are dumb and the classes "herd mentality". What aarogance!

gleenn 9y ago

"Have I gotten smarter? Or is it just that British people are stupider than the Chinese?" Wow, false dichotomy and either racism or ego, take your pick. Hard to keep reading after that.

SadWebDeveloper 9y ago

> UK’s university system is considered superior to China’s,..., about one in ten applicants gets into Oxbridge in the UK, ...,but in Hebei province in China, where I am from, only one in fifteen hundred applicants gets into Peking or Qinghua University "western universities" aren't only for "the best and brightest" but also for those who can afford it, this narrowly reduces the number of applicants.

bsaul 9y ago

I can't help but think that the conclusion being "whatever happens happens, and your actions have very little to do with what your life's going to be" is a very zen / taoism / asian philosophy cliché. Maybe the reason the west is successful lies in the belief that individuals matters. If that's the case, then i suppose the OP still has a long way to go.

wu-ikkyu 9y ago
Maybe there's a balance to be struck between the two ideologies: that seemingly insignificant individual actions can have profound effects, while also accepting the fact that there are infinite environmental variables that we have negligible control over which influence every single one of those actions.
- bsaul 9y ago
  i don't think you need to "accept" the fact that there are infinite variables, or that you're not all-that-powerful. It's pretty much a given, and it's something you realise at 2 year old, when you really want to play with that ball, or lift that rock, or pretty much anything grown up do, but you can't. And as you're growing up, nature is always there to remind you that you're nothing. IMHO, the role of education in the most general sense (encompassing the cultural background you're evolving in) is to help you think that you need to keep trying to make a difference, and not give up, because maybe one time in your life you'll accomplish something, and that'll be worth it.
  - wu-ikkyu 9y ago
    >you realise at 2 year old, when you really want to play with that ball, or lift that rock, or pretty much anything grown up do Most two year olds can't form complex sentences, and so have yet to be indoctrinated into their culture's ideologies. It seems like the context of this whole thread is moreso about economic ideology than basic physics.
mazerackham 9y ago
But maybe not, and probably not.

throw2016 9y ago

Its an interesting piece and some of the responses here seem uncharitable even defensive, as if he has questioned sacred gods. It's not individuals reacting but jingoism, our generation was brought up on the idea of globalism and humanism, that we can connect as individuals. But as one gets older it seems jingoism is as alive as ever, only concealed better, where some things are taken for granted and not to be questioned while pointing fingers at others, judging others and making negative assumptions is perfectly ok. Reluctance to introspect on your own society while cheering on those who criticize their own is a losing game.

thetruthseeker1 9y ago

I thought it was a good/enjoyable article and it shed light on many things for me. Reading some of the comments below, and having known some Chinese people ( I am not east asian) I want to point out that it seems like many people missed the intention/ tone of the author. I think his intention was not to brag as some people have misunderstood, but to provide context to how he got to where he got to. His communication style is different compared to the western style of communication. There is no single coherent message he is trying to drive purposefully or tacitly, but my guess is he was hoping you learn whatever you can from his experience and his way of thought. Sure the article title could have had the words ‘random’ and ‘musings’ in the same sentence..... meh!

matt4077 9y ago
I got a sense of a sort of extremely dry, British humour, with a hint of self-deprecation, from it. Which I thoroughly enjoyed.
hokkos 9y ago
This is a story about randomness, the style follows.
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KaoruAoiShiho 9y ago

> In Communist China, I was taught that hard work would bring success. In the land of the American dream, I learned that success comes through good luck, the right slogans, and monitoring your own—and others’—emotions. FTFY: > In highschool, I was taught that hard work would bring success. In college, I learned that success comes through fooling people with good marketing.

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mlinksva 9y ago

> One class was about strategy. It focused on how corporate mottos and logos could inspire employees. Probably not intended as such, but I'll take it as a hilarious send up of "strategy" and will recall it whenever I witness "strategy" being used vacuously.

grot 9y ago
I think he meant it. His English is very fluent throughout the article.
- wolfgke 9y ago
  As a non-native speaker I say that there is a huge difference between speaking/writing fluent English and doing this in a way that satisfies "unwritten cultural conventions". For my English, for example, native speakers tend to say that it is actually quite correct, but I have a tendency to use words in a specific way in which few native speaker would use them.
  - grot 9y ago
    I am a non-native english speaker too; I guess I bristle at the the reading that this man isn't in control of his english when he writes with obvious proficiency, a reading I suspect, would not at all be in question were his name John Foster Edwards, or Henry Wickham or whatever Anglo-Saxon name you wish to replace his name with. I see your point though. I think he does use words in ways that native speakers do not use, but in his anecdotes -- I think he's actually playing up his Chineseness for the comic effect, and he's very much aware of what's happening.

alexasmyths 9y ago

The most odd thing for me was the bit about how he didn't understand how 'long-term greedy' would not inspire most people. Also - we should consider that the kinds of kids who grow up super talented, go to Goldman and top Schools etc. are probably not very representative of the Chinese population.

dibstern 9y ago

I’m only part way through this so far, but it seems like you think in terms of absolutes -> either the world is entirely random, or it is entirely causal. Why can it not be a mix of both, of coincidence and causal relationships, some of which are intentionally planned.

stuartaxelowen 9y ago

All patterns are post rationalizations.

brobdingnagians 9y ago

1. People who believe they can affect their own future and have control over there circumstances tend to have higher self-esteem and happiness. That tells you at least something about what you might _want_ to believe. 2. Montesquieu had a theory that people in history rode the wave of what was happening at the time, so Napoleon would not have become Napoleon if he was born in a different time, _but_ if Napoleon had not take control, someone else would have, since circumstances were ripe. Therefore, a person who knows how to read the events & choose a good strategy for the time in which they live will usually be at least moderately successful, and someone incapable of that will nearly always be mediocre. There are outliers and extremely fortunate or unfortunate events, but part of strategy is not becoming a negative outlier and optimizing for higher success. You may miss a specific opportunity, but if you are always looking for opportunity, you will find one of the ones that come along.

Hendrikto 9y ago

> Eventually I was able to meet the chief financial officer of my favorite company, Costco. He told me that they don’t hire any MBAs. Everyone starts by pushing trolleys. The CFO went to university himself. What an ass...

throwaway71324 9y ago

It's rather poetic that the author who was marinated in the cold-hard "we know best" culture of Communism, then in its self-congratulatory more stochastic variant of occidental capitalism, to come back to what was once the core wisdom of the orient, yet not appreciate it. Pity that while the Europeans destroyed the traditions of much of Asia's (incl., sadly, much of India's), that the Chinese themselves destroyed a large part of their own heritage.

sgt101 9y ago

Success or failure - these are the wrong perspectives. Happiness, fulfilment and experience; when you're on your death bed you'll not think back warmly to all the money you made, or the great job titles you held.

hacker314159 9y ago

"I told him about the black swan I kept on my desk as a reminder that low probability events happen with high frequency" Uh... wouldn't low probability events happen with low frequency? Am I missing something?

iakh 9y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory

lilfatbitch 9y ago

>I had the second-worst grades in the class and had to sit at a desk perpendicular to the blackboard so that the teacher could keep a close eye on me Maybe he had the second-worst grades from not knowing the meaning of "perpendicular" even though he studied math