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The reason why consumer/enterprise software is so lightly regulated is that very few people die when mistakes are made. (Embedded, especially medical, is a diff

The reason why consumer/enterprise software is so lightly regulated is that very few people die when mistakes are made. (Embedded, especially medical, is a different story: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25) Meanwhile, cars (and roadways designed for high speeds without proper pedestrian accommodations) have been the #1 cause of injury deaths for kids for generations: https://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/LeadingCauses.html https://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/LeadingCauses.html

smokeyj 9y ago
> The reason why consumer/enterprise software is so lightly regulated is that very few people die when mistakes are made So few people die because computers are nearly unregulated and mass manufactured. Computers are cheap and safe because we allow the market to function.
- davidcbc 9y ago
  Based on what? What deaths is the lack of regulation preventing? How would they be more dangerous if they were regulated?
  - smokeyj 9y ago
    > How would they be more dangerous if they were regulated? Not necessarily more dangerous, but more expensive. Medical tourism anyone?
  - jack9 9y ago
    There's lots of unintended, expected, negative outcomes from regulation. The counter culture is unregulated experimentation like https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3298919/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3298919/ An impetus to circumvent these regulations, in the extreme case to save lives (or just to be deviant). Regulation is like a wet blanket that can mold, but is effective at putting out a fire in a pinch, if it's big enough. Regulatory bodies never seem to have a path-to-dissolution process (the core of my problem with regulation) and are largely implemented in such a manner that they grow, self-perpetuate, morph and fester corruption for countless generations (e.g. FDA vs smoking tobacco). Admittedly, I'm biased by my beliefs. Despite being heavily regulated, I think much of the cancer epidemic is caused by auto and oil/fuel, with some contribution by Monsanto Roundup-like products. The independent studies, in these heavily regulated industries, are consistently squelched, influenced, or made unavailable (trade secrets!). Regulation is not a silver bullet.
- beep_boop_beep 9y ago
  I can see how it seems that way but actually almost every component of a computer must pass FCC certification, not to mention any certification in other markets. Take wifi modules for instance, they must conform to each countries regulations regarding spectrum usage and in Europe at least, they are restricted by output power unless you apply for a radio operator license. Yet wifi is EVERYWHERE. That's not even getting into the fact that almost every piece of tech has an alliance or standards committee which decides how devices using that tech will operate, conform to standards and how those devices will play nice with similar devices or operate with devices on older iterations of that tech. The IT industry only works the way it does because it's one of the most tightly controlled, planned out and well documented industries in human history. Without those standards and regulations the whole industry would be a shit show of epic proportions with everyone putting out closed systems and poor, if any compatibility with other systems or components.
- aesclepius 9y ago
  Incorrect. Look at applied computing for medicine/healthcare, those things are strictly regulated and analyzed because of their potential to harm. A 0.001% overflow in your twitter app makes you restart your phone, a 0.001% overflow in your pacemaker means you die. Immediately.
  - smokeyj 9y ago
    I realize these regulations exist, my point is they come at a cost and that at some point the costs can become prohibitive. As I mentioned below the argument isn't just theoretical, it's why the term "medical tourism" exists. I believe reasonable tradeoffs could be made in theory, but I also believe the appeal of regulatory capture is too alluring for wall street to pass up. And when the people who need these devices can't afford it - well, that's when operation Too Big To Fail goes into effect.
    - iainmerrick 9y ago
      the argument isn't just theoretical, it's why the term "medical tourism" exists. Can you explain that in more detail? What's the connection to regulations? Does medical tourism exclusively happen from countries with heavily regulated medicine to countries with light regulations? I would have assumed it was more about the distinction between state-run same-care-for-all healthcare systems versus commercial pay-to-play systems. If you have the money and you need the care, of course you're going to pay for better service if possible. But that seems orthogonal to regulations.
      - giobox 9y ago
        Both arguments are valid at the same time. People do absolutely shop around to skip waiting lines in state-run systems or save money by getting private treatment cheaper (UK citizens getting cheaper IVF in Spain is a common one I'm familiar with), but it's also sometimes true that certain treatments or medications that have been made available in one State that might not yet be certified for clinical use in another. New stem cell based therapies (the merits of which I have no idea...) in some South American nations is one example of the latter.
thrillgore 9y ago
I would love to see the numbers you pulled out of thin air for your statement on deaths caused by software. I've met at least one developer who quit the profession because they were writing code that "would probably lead to someone's death."
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago
  > they were writing code that "would probably lead to someone's death" Versus cars, where I'd be shocked if there's a single mass-produced model that hasn't killed someone.
  - willis77 9y ago
    As of 2015, there were 9 car models without recorded deaths - https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/record-9-models-have-zero-driver-deaths-iihs-says-n296036 https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/record-9-models-have-... I'm not sure how statistically significant the numbers are, but it's something!
    - timthelion 9y ago
      If I'm reading this correctly, those cars nave no "driver deaths" that means, that no one has died while driving those cars. This is a bit like a shotgun, which has potentially killed many people, but has not killed its owner.
      - Apocryphon 9y ago
        Imagine if everyone was only allowed to drive those 9 car models.
        timthelion 9y ago
        I'm a pedestrian. I don't drive. I'm sure the cars don't have air bags on their bumpers.

smokeyj 9y ago

> The reason why consumer/enterprise software is so lightly regulated is that very few people die when mistakes are made So few people die because computers are nearly unregulated and mass manufactured. Computers are cheap and safe because we allow the market to function.

davidcbc 9y ago
Based on what? What deaths is the lack of regulation preventing? How would they be more dangerous if they were regulated?
- smokeyj 9y ago
  > How would they be more dangerous if they were regulated? Not necessarily more dangerous, but more expensive. Medical tourism anyone?
- jack9 9y ago
  There's lots of unintended, expected, negative outcomes from regulation. The counter culture is unregulated experimentation like https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3298919/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3298919/ An impetus to circumvent these regulations, in the extreme case to save lives (or just to be deviant). Regulation is like a wet blanket that can mold, but is effective at putting out a fire in a pinch, if it's big enough. Regulatory bodies never seem to have a path-to-dissolution process (the core of my problem with regulation) and are largely implemented in such a manner that they grow, self-perpetuate, morph and fester corruption for countless generations (e.g. FDA vs smoking tobacco). Admittedly, I'm biased by my beliefs. Despite being heavily regulated, I think much of the cancer epidemic is caused by auto and oil/fuel, with some contribution by Monsanto Roundup-like products. The independent studies, in these heavily regulated industries, are consistently squelched, influenced, or made unavailable (trade secrets!). Regulation is not a silver bullet.
beep_boop_beep 9y ago
I can see how it seems that way but actually almost every component of a computer must pass FCC certification, not to mention any certification in other markets. Take wifi modules for instance, they must conform to each countries regulations regarding spectrum usage and in Europe at least, they are restricted by output power unless you apply for a radio operator license. Yet wifi is EVERYWHERE. That's not even getting into the fact that almost every piece of tech has an alliance or standards committee which decides how devices using that tech will operate, conform to standards and how those devices will play nice with similar devices or operate with devices on older iterations of that tech. The IT industry only works the way it does because it's one of the most tightly controlled, planned out and well documented industries in human history. Without those standards and regulations the whole industry would be a shit show of epic proportions with everyone putting out closed systems and poor, if any compatibility with other systems or components.
aesclepius 9y ago
Incorrect. Look at applied computing for medicine/healthcare, those things are strictly regulated and analyzed because of their potential to harm. A 0.001% overflow in your twitter app makes you restart your phone, a 0.001% overflow in your pacemaker means you die. Immediately.
- smokeyj 9y ago
  I realize these regulations exist, my point is they come at a cost and that at some point the costs can become prohibitive. As I mentioned below the argument isn't just theoretical, it's why the term "medical tourism" exists. I believe reasonable tradeoffs could be made in theory, but I also believe the appeal of regulatory capture is too alluring for wall street to pass up. And when the people who need these devices can't afford it - well, that's when operation Too Big To Fail goes into effect.
  - iainmerrick 9y ago
    the argument isn't just theoretical, it's why the term "medical tourism" exists. Can you explain that in more detail? What's the connection to regulations? Does medical tourism exclusively happen from countries with heavily regulated medicine to countries with light regulations? I would have assumed it was more about the distinction between state-run same-care-for-all healthcare systems versus commercial pay-to-play systems. If you have the money and you need the care, of course you're going to pay for better service if possible. But that seems orthogonal to regulations.
    - giobox 9y ago
      Both arguments are valid at the same time. People do absolutely shop around to skip waiting lines in state-run systems or save money by getting private treatment cheaper (UK citizens getting cheaper IVF in Spain is a common one I'm familiar with), but it's also sometimes true that certain treatments or medications that have been made available in one State that might not yet be certified for clinical use in another. New stem cell based therapies (the merits of which I have no idea...) in some South American nations is one example of the latter.

thrillgore 9y ago

I would love to see the numbers you pulled out of thin air for your statement on deaths caused by software. I've met at least one developer who quit the profession because they were writing code that "would probably lead to someone's death."

JumpCrisscross 9y ago
> they were writing code that "would probably lead to someone's death" Versus cars, where I'd be shocked if there's a single mass-produced model that hasn't killed someone.
- willis77 9y ago
  As of 2015, there were 9 car models without recorded deaths - https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/record-9-models-have-zero-driver-deaths-iihs-says-n296036 https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/record-9-models-have-... I'm not sure how statistically significant the numbers are, but it's something!
  - timthelion 9y ago
    If I'm reading this correctly, those cars nave no "driver deaths" that means, that no one has died while driving those cars. This is a bit like a shotgun, which has potentially killed many people, but has not killed its owner.
    - Apocryphon 9y ago
      Imagine if everyone was only allowed to drive those 9 car models.
      - timthelion 9y ago
        I'm a pedestrian. I don't drive. I'm sure the cars don't have air bags on their bumpers.