8 ms·

Either looking up to someone or holding them in contempt are very binary positions. People are complex. One can admire a person for the good they do and critici

Either looking up to someone or holding them in contempt are very binary positions. People are complex. One can admire a person for the good they do and criticise and oppose them for the deliberate bad things they indulge in. I mean... none of us are purely black or white...

rxhernandez 9y ago
It's only binary because the actions they've done are so egregious that we have no other choice but to condemn them. Most people are able to stop themselves at the mere thought of committing actions such as these. And yes, while everyone makes mistakes there is a huge difference between mistakes that might hurt someone a bit and mistakes that make people feel violated. I've never made anyone feel violated and I'm sure most other people can say the same. Here's a 3 step process for anyone who finds it difficult and if at any point you answer no, stop what you are doing: 1. Do you know this person well and do they respond enthusiastically positive toward you? 2. Have you discussed your feelings towards them and have they responded enthusiastically positive towards them? 3. Have you discussed the things you want to do and have they responded enthusiastically positive towards them? As an average looking guy who has had no trouble finding many romantic partners, let me say this, if your success hinges upon overwhelming surprise then you are doing something VERY wrong. If you are worried about it no longer feeling in the moment after asking for consent, let me assure you that if they want you as bad as they should, it won't be given a second thought.
- ralusek 9y ago
  Aren't the actions egregious on a case by case basis? Do we actually know what he's been accused of? It sounds like he's a little bit overly friendly...and that does not push somebody into a binary 0 for me. Dude makes good movies.
  - aaron-lebo 9y ago
    Yes, we do, in the linked articles. The Polanski Standard is a bad one. Someone can make great movies but if they are a creep, they're a creep. If he made bad movies would it be okay to judge him? I've gotta believe you can be a decent person and still do great things. Otherwise, what's the point? No need to excuse bad behavior, maybe by excusing it, we make it possible. If predators got run out of industries instead of being allowed to stick around for decades (Hastert, Weinstein, Paterno, Spacey, Trump, the media is even starting to turn on Bill Clinton), then we wouldn't have to be so disappointed. It's not acceptable.
    - jdminhbg 9y ago
      Paterno isn't accused of being a predator. You're probably thinking of Jerry Sandusky. But ironically, you might accidentally have come across the reason this doesn't happen. Things that "everyone knows" aren't actionable until there's hard evidence and accusers on the record, and then afterwards, we all pretend like "everyone knew" and chose to do nothing.
      - kthejoker2 9y ago
        Enablers are worse than predators. Paterno can rot in hell.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
  - stevenwoo 9y ago
    Based on what I read about the details, if the boss of your company was making unwanted sexual advances to the people that worked for him/her, most people to whom this happened would think "Eww". From the news - A former Pixar employee requesting anonymity says Lasseter's leave of absence statement is "ridiculous" and "trivializing this behavior." The employee adds, "To sum this up as unwanted hugs is belittling and demeaning. If it was just unwanted hugs, he wouldn't be stepping down."
  - rayiner 9y ago
    “Grabbing” and “kissing” coworkers is more than “a little overly friendly.” Legally, it’s battery. (Fun fact: it was defined that way at common law, long before feminism.)
    - tptacek 9y ago
      Wait, really? Where can I read more about that?
      - vidarh 9y ago
        Wiki page on battery? [1] Or any legal text on it... Battery in common law is basically any unlawful offensive/unwanted physical contact, though various jurisdictions limit or define this very differently. So it's not that kissing or grabbing is specifically called out, but that any physical contact to the extent that it is unwanted (battery and assault both depend on the recipients subjective views in common law; in codified versions this may be different) and/or seen as insulting or offensive in the relevant jurisdiction is likely to be battery unless specific other criteria comes into play. A challenge is that in some instances you may be thought to "silently consent". E.g. in the UK this very explicitly comes into play with ordinary contact in a crowd, and presumably all jurisdictions will recognize this in some form or other. But absent codified rules, precisely what/how/when you may be considered to "silently consent" to may vary wildly in different common law jurisdiction depending on details of precedent setting case law up through the ages and changing social expectations. E.g. a lot of people would likely have expectations of a higher level of "silent consent" on a night club dance floor, for example - but conversely because battery is largely down to the subjective judgement of the victim, my ex is due in court tomorrow because some guy grabbed her ass in a night club and refusing to apologize (admittedly "helped" massively by the guy lying to the police about it once things escalated) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_(crime) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_(crime)
- ncallaway 9y ago
  > If you are worried about it no longer feeling in the moment after asking for consent, let me assure you that if they want you as bad as they should, it won't be given a second thought. This is a phenomenal point. If the "moment" is so fragile, that it can be totally destroy by asking for consent, then it's also very likely too fragile to take any action. If you think "if I ask, then it might ruin the moment", then you also have a huge chance of making someone very uncomfortable.
jdoliner 9y ago
If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn I'm reminded of this quote every time another one of these scandals breaks.
- aaron-lebo 9y ago
  With these scandals, it really is simple: don't sexually harass or assault others. Most of us manage.
  - westoncb 9y ago
    Come on. Even finding a definition of sexual harassment which people can agree on is notoriously difficult. Add to that the fact our society continues to push the idea that the men which women 'really want' are aggressive in initiating sexual situations. A man who does something as timid as asking whether he may kiss a girl can assure himself of inadequacy. (Not that there aren't plenty of exceptions to our media supporting this idea—but it's still implied pervasively. And some of it probably is just human nature.) That said, even if it's not clear exactly where the line is—it's pretty easy to see that certain actions would be far across it, and that's largely what's come up in recent allegations. Though I don't think all of them have been super clear cut. 'Simple' is too strong here.
    - rayiner 9y ago
      > Add to that the fact our society continues to push the idea that the men which women 'really want' are aggressive in initiating sexual situations This is a big part of the problem. These sexual harassment allegations are almost entirely arising in contexts where sex should be off the table. Society’s expectations of aggressive male behavior are entirely irrelevant.
      - westoncb 9y ago
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
xir78 9y ago
If someone doesn’t make any mistakes no one would look up to them either since they couldn’t connect with them.

rxhernandez 9y ago

It's only binary because the actions they've done are so egregious that we have no other choice but to condemn them. Most people are able to stop themselves at the mere thought of committing actions such as these. And yes, while everyone makes mistakes there is a huge difference between mistakes that might hurt someone a bit and mistakes that make people feel violated. I've never made anyone feel violated and I'm sure most other people can say the same. Here's a 3 step process for anyone who finds it difficult and if at any point you answer no, stop what you are doing: 1. Do you know this person well and do they respond enthusiastically positive toward you? 2. Have you discussed your feelings towards them and have they responded enthusiastically positive towards them? 3. Have you discussed the things you want to do and have they responded enthusiastically positive towards them? As an average looking guy who has had no trouble finding many romantic partners, let me say this, if your success hinges upon overwhelming surprise then you are doing something VERY wrong. If you are worried about it no longer feeling in the moment after asking for consent, let me assure you that if they want you as bad as they should, it won't be given a second thought.

ralusek 9y ago
Aren't the actions egregious on a case by case basis? Do we actually know what he's been accused of? It sounds like he's a little bit overly friendly...and that does not push somebody into a binary 0 for me. Dude makes good movies.
- aaron-lebo 9y ago
  Yes, we do, in the linked articles. The Polanski Standard is a bad one. Someone can make great movies but if they are a creep, they're a creep. If he made bad movies would it be okay to judge him? I've gotta believe you can be a decent person and still do great things. Otherwise, what's the point? No need to excuse bad behavior, maybe by excusing it, we make it possible. If predators got run out of industries instead of being allowed to stick around for decades (Hastert, Weinstein, Paterno, Spacey, Trump, the media is even starting to turn on Bill Clinton), then we wouldn't have to be so disappointed. It's not acceptable.
  - jdminhbg 9y ago
    Paterno isn't accused of being a predator. You're probably thinking of Jerry Sandusky. But ironically, you might accidentally have come across the reason this doesn't happen. Things that "everyone knows" aren't actionable until there's hard evidence and accusers on the record, and then afterwards, we all pretend like "everyone knew" and chose to do nothing.
    - kthejoker2 9y ago
      Enablers are worse than predators. Paterno can rot in hell.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
- stevenwoo 9y ago
  Based on what I read about the details, if the boss of your company was making unwanted sexual advances to the people that worked for him/her, most people to whom this happened would think "Eww". From the news - A former Pixar employee requesting anonymity says Lasseter's leave of absence statement is "ridiculous" and "trivializing this behavior." The employee adds, "To sum this up as unwanted hugs is belittling and demeaning. If it was just unwanted hugs, he wouldn't be stepping down."
- rayiner 9y ago
  “Grabbing” and “kissing” coworkers is more than “a little overly friendly.” Legally, it’s battery. (Fun fact: it was defined that way at common law, long before feminism.)
  - tptacek 9y ago
    Wait, really? Where can I read more about that?
    - vidarh 9y ago
      Wiki page on battery? [1] Or any legal text on it... Battery in common law is basically any unlawful offensive/unwanted physical contact, though various jurisdictions limit or define this very differently. So it's not that kissing or grabbing is specifically called out, but that any physical contact to the extent that it is unwanted (battery and assault both depend on the recipients subjective views in common law; in codified versions this may be different) and/or seen as insulting or offensive in the relevant jurisdiction is likely to be battery unless specific other criteria comes into play. A challenge is that in some instances you may be thought to "silently consent". E.g. in the UK this very explicitly comes into play with ordinary contact in a crowd, and presumably all jurisdictions will recognize this in some form or other. But absent codified rules, precisely what/how/when you may be considered to "silently consent" to may vary wildly in different common law jurisdiction depending on details of precedent setting case law up through the ages and changing social expectations. E.g. a lot of people would likely have expectations of a higher level of "silent consent" on a night club dance floor, for example - but conversely because battery is largely down to the subjective judgement of the victim, my ex is due in court tomorrow because some guy grabbed her ass in a night club and refusing to apologize (admittedly "helped" massively by the guy lying to the police about it once things escalated) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_(crime) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_(crime)
ncallaway 9y ago
> If you are worried about it no longer feeling in the moment after asking for consent, let me assure you that if they want you as bad as they should, it won't be given a second thought. This is a phenomenal point. If the "moment" is so fragile, that it can be totally destroy by asking for consent, then it's also very likely too fragile to take any action. If you think "if I ask, then it might ruin the moment", then you also have a huge chance of making someone very uncomfortable.

jdoliner 9y ago

If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn I'm reminded of this quote every time another one of these scandals breaks.

aaron-lebo 9y ago
With these scandals, it really is simple: don't sexually harass or assault others. Most of us manage.
- westoncb 9y ago
  Come on. Even finding a definition of sexual harassment which people can agree on is notoriously difficult. Add to that the fact our society continues to push the idea that the men which women 'really want' are aggressive in initiating sexual situations. A man who does something as timid as asking whether he may kiss a girl can assure himself of inadequacy. (Not that there aren't plenty of exceptions to our media supporting this idea—but it's still implied pervasively. And some of it probably is just human nature.) That said, even if it's not clear exactly where the line is—it's pretty easy to see that certain actions would be far across it, and that's largely what's come up in recent allegations. Though I don't think all of them have been super clear cut. 'Simple' is too strong here.
  - rayiner 9y ago
    > Add to that the fact our society continues to push the idea that the men which women 'really want' are aggressive in initiating sexual situations This is a big part of the problem. These sexual harassment allegations are almost entirely arising in contexts where sex should be off the table. Society’s expectations of aggressive male behavior are entirely irrelevant.
    - westoncb 9y ago

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

xir78 9y ago

If someone doesn’t make any mistakes no one would look up to them either since they couldn’t connect with them.