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I always read these ridiculously high salaries and laugh. Your average HVAC worker is not making $400k. I do know people in construction/HVAC/plumbers/electrici

I always read these ridiculously high salaries and laugh. Your average HVAC worker is not making $400k. I do know people in construction/HVAC/plumbers/electricians and it's the bosses making that money, not the grunt workers. The people on the front lines still make good money, for some easily approaching $100k/year, so there's not really a need for embellishment. That isn't to say that it's unattainable, but it's akin to saying that software developers make $400k/year when it's usually 10-20+ year tenured engineering managers at a few specific companies actually making that much.

pedrosorio 9y ago
"tenured engineering managers"? http://thestartupconference.com/2017/03/25/the-350k-google-salary-is-hurting-startups/ http://thestartupconference.com/2017/03/25/the-350k-google-s...
- opportune 9y ago
  That's an even more specific case, because again, most software developers aren't working at Google/FB/Airbnb/Uber/Snap. And those are figures for experienced workers to boot, and "Staff Engineer" is typically a managerial role IMO, if not directly by delegation/HR-type stuff, then in a technical sense. The total comp is in practice also generally a bit lower because most of those companies backload the vesting
  - jacobolus 9y ago
    “Staff Engineer” is about halfway up the technical career ladder in many places, with a few possible (but increasingly rare) levels above, and a few levels below. Someone promoted to staff engineer likely has at least 5 years of work experience (probably more) and is self-motivated, good at their job, gets along well with their coworkers, and has some technical vision. Many of these people might have some quasi-managerial duties (interacting with other parts of the organization, helping with recruiting, ...), get roped into more meetings than they would like, or make high-level technical decisions and delegate work to a handful of more junior engineers, but most of them are sitting at their desks writing code a significant part of the day (or perhaps rewriting the schlocky code that the junior engineers just handed in).
    - opportune 9y ago
      I think it depends on the company. I was extrapolating from my own experience but I realize it may not be the same elsewhere. In my experience Staff Engineers were almost always at least 10 years-experienced. I might be wrong about those companies I mentioned, though, because I've never worked at any of them Also keep in mind I said "usually" in my original comment. Blue collar labor and software engineering are not directly analogous because yes, there are software developers at the high end that are making a lot of money compared to some of the best blue collar workers. But it's still only a small percentage of them making that much, and I wouldn't mention those figures to someone looking to go into software for that reason
    - djb_hackernews 9y ago
      I've worked for 2 well known software companies and what you are describing is a Senior Engineer in both (5-10 years experience). The place I am now starts fresh grads as Engineer I, then Engineer II, Senior Engineer, Principal Engineer, Architect and then Staff Engineer. Each promotion takes about 4-5 years so you aren't reaching Staff until about 20 years. A Staff Engineer is basically fully autonomous and is an IC that reports directly to the executives. They work on what they want and with who they want. I understand this is different at Google and I guess Staff is the equivalent to a Google Fellow.
      - opportune 9y ago
        My experience aligns with yours
      - jacobolus 9y ago
        Yeah, the version the earlier poster was talking about in his link is somewhere between your levels of Senior and Principal.
  - pedrosorio 9y ago
    "That's an even more specific case, because again, most software developers aren't working at Google/FB/Airbnb/Uber/Snap." That's why you said: "when it's usually 10-20+ year tenured engineering managers at a few specific companies" right?
    - opportune 9y ago
      Yeah I was speaking in broad terms across the industry, not accounting for edge cases
ataturk 9y ago
I'll never see 400K, not even if I do tons of overtime through my own S-Corp. If you can do that, I'd like to know how. 200K is hard enough and not easy to maintain.
jondubois 9y ago
$400k is what senior executives of major multinational companies get paid. It's also what top surgeons get paid. I highly doubt that blue collar workers get anywhere near that much. If they did, everyone would try to work in that industry because the barrier to entry is comparatively very low.
- opportune 9y ago
  Senior executives get paid much more than that in stock (which is how these top-paid software people get most of their money too), also $400k is just a slightly above average surgeon, not a top surgeon. If you read my comment, I'm not really talking about blue collar workers, but more people who used to be bluecollar workers but eventually became small business owners of companies employ blue collar labor. My cousins who used to be electricians can easily make $250k/year by employing a team of <10 electricians to do the manual work. $400k/year doesn't seem out of reach at all, and they might get that just by moving business to a higher CoL area than the suburban South
  - newacct13424 9y ago
    So you're talking about businessmen, not workers. Businessmen are doing well across the board. It doesn't much matter what they did before they were businessmen.
- ska 9y ago
  It's also what top surgeons get paid. Your point is valid, but that is nowhere near the top of surgical salaries - closer to the average.
- jimbokun 9y ago
  "If they did, everyone would try to work in that industry because the barrier to entry is comparatively very low." That's an old joke: Surgeon to plumber: "You are charging higher prices than I get for performing surgery!" Plumber: "Yeah, I make more money now than when I was a surgeon, too."
- tooltalk 9y ago
rayiner 9y ago
It’s not all that unusual for the grunt workers to put in their time and become the boss. Out where I live, there are lots of really big houses near the water with vans and dirty pickup trucks out front.
pw 9y ago
I think there’s a lot more software developers at the big tech companies making $400k or more in total comp than you think.

pedrosorio 9y ago

"tenured engineering managers"? http://thestartupconference.com/2017/03/25/the-350k-google-salary-is-hurting-startups/ http://thestartupconference.com/2017/03/25/the-350k-google-s...

opportune 9y ago
That's an even more specific case, because again, most software developers aren't working at Google/FB/Airbnb/Uber/Snap. And those are figures for experienced workers to boot, and "Staff Engineer" is typically a managerial role IMO, if not directly by delegation/HR-type stuff, then in a technical sense. The total comp is in practice also generally a bit lower because most of those companies backload the vesting
- jacobolus 9y ago
  “Staff Engineer” is about halfway up the technical career ladder in many places, with a few possible (but increasingly rare) levels above, and a few levels below. Someone promoted to staff engineer likely has at least 5 years of work experience (probably more) and is self-motivated, good at their job, gets along well with their coworkers, and has some technical vision. Many of these people might have some quasi-managerial duties (interacting with other parts of the organization, helping with recruiting, ...), get roped into more meetings than they would like, or make high-level technical decisions and delegate work to a handful of more junior engineers, but most of them are sitting at their desks writing code a significant part of the day (or perhaps rewriting the schlocky code that the junior engineers just handed in).
  - opportune 9y ago
    I think it depends on the company. I was extrapolating from my own experience but I realize it may not be the same elsewhere. In my experience Staff Engineers were almost always at least 10 years-experienced. I might be wrong about those companies I mentioned, though, because I've never worked at any of them Also keep in mind I said "usually" in my original comment. Blue collar labor and software engineering are not directly analogous because yes, there are software developers at the high end that are making a lot of money compared to some of the best blue collar workers. But it's still only a small percentage of them making that much, and I wouldn't mention those figures to someone looking to go into software for that reason
  - djb_hackernews 9y ago
    I've worked for 2 well known software companies and what you are describing is a Senior Engineer in both (5-10 years experience). The place I am now starts fresh grads as Engineer I, then Engineer II, Senior Engineer, Principal Engineer, Architect and then Staff Engineer. Each promotion takes about 4-5 years so you aren't reaching Staff until about 20 years. A Staff Engineer is basically fully autonomous and is an IC that reports directly to the executives. They work on what they want and with who they want. I understand this is different at Google and I guess Staff is the equivalent to a Google Fellow.
    - opportune 9y ago
      My experience aligns with yours
    - jacobolus 9y ago
      Yeah, the version the earlier poster was talking about in his link is somewhere between your levels of Senior and Principal.
- pedrosorio 9y ago
  "That's an even more specific case, because again, most software developers aren't working at Google/FB/Airbnb/Uber/Snap." That's why you said: "when it's usually 10-20+ year tenured engineering managers at a few specific companies" right?
  - opportune 9y ago
    Yeah I was speaking in broad terms across the industry, not accounting for edge cases

ataturk 9y ago

I'll never see 400K, not even if I do tons of overtime through my own S-Corp. If you can do that, I'd like to know how. 200K is hard enough and not easy to maintain.

jondubois 9y ago

$400k is what senior executives of major multinational companies get paid. It's also what top surgeons get paid. I highly doubt that blue collar workers get anywhere near that much. If they did, everyone would try to work in that industry because the barrier to entry is comparatively very low.

opportune 9y ago
Senior executives get paid much more than that in stock (which is how these top-paid software people get most of their money too), also $400k is just a slightly above average surgeon, not a top surgeon. If you read my comment, I'm not really talking about blue collar workers, but more people who used to be bluecollar workers but eventually became small business owners of companies employ blue collar labor. My cousins who used to be electricians can easily make $250k/year by employing a team of <10 electricians to do the manual work. $400k/year doesn't seem out of reach at all, and they might get that just by moving business to a higher CoL area than the suburban South
- newacct13424 9y ago
  So you're talking about businessmen, not workers. Businessmen are doing well across the board. It doesn't much matter what they did before they were businessmen.
ska 9y ago
It's also what top surgeons get paid. Your point is valid, but that is nowhere near the top of surgical salaries - closer to the average.
jimbokun 9y ago
"If they did, everyone would try to work in that industry because the barrier to entry is comparatively very low." That's an old joke: Surgeon to plumber: "You are charging higher prices than I get for performing surgery!" Plumber: "Yeah, I make more money now than when I was a surgeon, too."
tooltalk 9y ago

rayiner 9y ago

It’s not all that unusual for the grunt workers to put in their time and become the boss. Out where I live, there are lots of really big houses near the water with vans and dirty pickup trucks out front.

pw 9y ago

I think there’s a lot more software developers at the big tech companies making $400k or more in total comp than you think.