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"Millions of Japanese aged 25 to 34 toil as temps or contract employees-- up from 1.5 million 10 years ago, according to the Ministry of Internal Affairs. These

"Millions of Japanese aged 25 to 34 toil as temps or contract employees-- up from 1.5 million 10 years ago, according to the Ministry of Internal Affairs. These workers tend to earn about one-third the typical "salaryman" wages that their fathers earned" I lived in Tokyo last year in a cheap apartment with alot of young Japanese people, and I was very surprised by their lack of work ethic/prospect from my first time in Japan. They would bounce from temp work (typing) to temp work (waiter) to temp work (salesperson walking everywhere in tokyo door to door), quitting every 2-3 weeks. They would sometimes sleep in and not show up for interview, and wouldn't even call to reschedule. The way they would quit a job they didn't like is by....not showing up anymore. Keep in mind these are people that went to pretty decent universities in Japan, and speak ok english. And when they do get a full time job offer, they would have to wait almost half a year to a year to start working (which I would think depress their morale).

masklinn 16y ago
> and I was very surprised by their lack of work ethic/prospect from my first time in Japan Why would you be surprised by their "lack of work ethics"? They got fucked hard, so it's understandable that they aren't going to care much for "the man" anymore: they were told their contract was to work like mad in their studies, get to a good university and end up landing a good job in a multinational where they'd work their whole life slowly climbing up the hierarchy and pretty much guaranteed they'd be there for life. Instead, at the end of their studies they found an utterly slaughtered job market and a crappy economy in which Japan has been stuck for 20 years (especially those who got out during the Lost Decade of the 90s). They don't have "good work ethics" because they've managed not to be stockholm syndrome victims, and because reality showed them strong work ethics didn't matter, and promises were there to be broken.
- billswift 16y ago
  A strong work ethic definitely matters to getting what you want, no matter what it may be, but you need to reorient the ethic to benefit yourself first. When I work for somebody else I work hard and do the best job I can, as long as I am there, for my own benefit. Among other things if you get in the habit of being sloppy or tardy, it tends to spread to other things you do, and they are hard habits to break once you let them get established.
- startuprules 16y ago
  I totally agree. I should add that I was surprised merely because in my head, I had this notion that Japanese people were mostly hard working and true to their crafts, before I had entered Japan. To add, young Japanese people also don't have the option of being an entrepreneur, because that notion is still widely shunned by society. So they toil in misery for many many years without escape.
  - umjames 16y ago
    So how are new companies created in Japan? Doesn't someone have to stick their neck out and be an entrepreneur? You would think that if some of these young Japanese people started companies and hired some of their contemporaries, you could get around that societal disapproval. I don't think any society would mind having companies that brought them wealth and employment.
    - startuprules 16y ago
      For Japan, it's all about 'tradition'. So society/entranched interests resist changes heavily. For example, the entrepreneur who started 1000-yen haircut chain in Japan (severely undercutting the barbershops) used to get death threats on his life, and had to fight tooth and nail to get spaces in shopping centers. You should see the blank stare I get, when they ask me about how to be successful in life (I'm a bit older and have my own company) and I tell them to start a business.
      - api 16y ago
        "Tradition is the enemy of progress."
        cema 16y ago
        Unless it's the tradition of entrepreneurship and hard work. One could say it's a meta tradition; ok.
      - noodle 16y ago
- potatolicious 16y ago
  Oh bullshit - I'm surprised you got as many upvotes given that this is supposed to be the entrepreneurial bunch (and our previous mega-thread involving Scott the useless college grad). Boo hoo, so the economic sucks and you were lied to your whole life about how your employment situation was going to work. So? This does not excuse laziness and a crappy work ethic. Perhaps their chronic unemployment stems from the fact that they meander through life rather than actively fighting for what they want. Japan isn't some third-world backwater, there are opportunities abound for people who are willing to work and fight for it - just like it still is in the US. The ones that sit and pout all day (like Scott, from the NYT article) are the ones who will never get out.
  - noodle 16y ago
    what is the expected outcome if someone fights hard for years and sees no success? is it never justified for someone to fight hard, see they're not getting anywhere, and then drop their effort level down to match the situation they're in, permanently or temporarily?
    - bpyne 16y ago
      This hopelessness shows up in the US as well. It's the people who fall off the unemployment stats and have given up looking for work. Another group of people stay on government assistance because they realize that paying for daycare, rent, etc. would add up to more than they make. So, they live off government assistance as long as possible.
      - masklinn 16y ago
        > Another group of people stay on government assistance because they realize that paying for daycare, rent, etc. would add up to more than they make. FWIW I've seen that happen in France: the social safety net tends to be pretty strong, but the transition from that safety net to its absence is anything but smooth. I'd go as far as to say it's pretty abrupt. A decade or so ago, my parents started employing a domestic worker to take care of laundry, sweeping, that kind of stuff. First one was a professional, second one was somebody who'd been "on the dole" for a long time and trying to get out of it (single mother, in her 40s, two children). Went swimmingly early on, but a pair of quarters in she realized she had gone above some kind of cut-off, and as a result she didn't qualify for some govt assistance as well as e.g. government-sponsored holidays for her children. That added up to at least twice what she actually earned. She decided to tough it up and keep trying to climb out, but I'd have understand dropping out: when you start making efforts and all of a sudden your standard of living drops sharply, it's not exactly worth it.
MikeMacMan 16y ago
I think the temp and contract work has increased because the contracting and temp staffing industry has exploded in Japan in the last 15 years. There's also more fluidity in the labor market now, meaning that people can more easily move from job to job without being stigmatized. For someone in their 20s who can't or doesn't want to depend on their parents for a place to live, then the prospect of making 2500yen/hr as a temp, instead of a paltry 200,000/month (and being overworked) as a salaried employee, is appealing.
patio11 16y ago
That is a social phenomenon alright, but freeters are not coextensive with Japanese youth. Japanese companies offering part-time employment frequently offer it on a day-labor basis: you do your day, you get your money, and you and the company are even. The employment relationship is as durable as those struck up with the gentlemen standing outside your local Home Depot in the United States. There are cell phone websites where you can browse jobs and be doing mind-numbing greeter-style work within 20 minutes. You'd find very, very different professional norms if you either hung around my salaryman buddies or hung around young ladies of my acquaintance who are on the "pink-collar" track.

masklinn 16y ago

> and I was very surprised by their lack of work ethic/prospect from my first time in Japan Why would you be surprised by their "lack of work ethics"? They got fucked hard, so it's understandable that they aren't going to care much for "the man" anymore: they were told their contract was to work like mad in their studies, get to a good university and end up landing a good job in a multinational where they'd work their whole life slowly climbing up the hierarchy and pretty much guaranteed they'd be there for life. Instead, at the end of their studies they found an utterly slaughtered job market and a crappy economy in which Japan has been stuck for 20 years (especially those who got out during the Lost Decade of the 90s). They don't have "good work ethics" because they've managed not to be stockholm syndrome victims, and because reality showed them strong work ethics didn't matter, and promises were there to be broken.

billswift 16y ago
A strong work ethic definitely matters to getting what you want, no matter what it may be, but you need to reorient the ethic to benefit yourself first. When I work for somebody else I work hard and do the best job I can, as long as I am there, for my own benefit. Among other things if you get in the habit of being sloppy or tardy, it tends to spread to other things you do, and they are hard habits to break once you let them get established.
startuprules 16y ago
I totally agree. I should add that I was surprised merely because in my head, I had this notion that Japanese people were mostly hard working and true to their crafts, before I had entered Japan. To add, young Japanese people also don't have the option of being an entrepreneur, because that notion is still widely shunned by society. So they toil in misery for many many years without escape.
- umjames 16y ago
  So how are new companies created in Japan? Doesn't someone have to stick their neck out and be an entrepreneur? You would think that if some of these young Japanese people started companies and hired some of their contemporaries, you could get around that societal disapproval. I don't think any society would mind having companies that brought them wealth and employment.
  - startuprules 16y ago
    For Japan, it's all about 'tradition'. So society/entranched interests resist changes heavily. For example, the entrepreneur who started 1000-yen haircut chain in Japan (severely undercutting the barbershops) used to get death threats on his life, and had to fight tooth and nail to get spaces in shopping centers. You should see the blank stare I get, when they ask me about how to be successful in life (I'm a bit older and have my own company) and I tell them to start a business.
    - api 16y ago
      "Tradition is the enemy of progress."
      - cema 16y ago
        Unless it's the tradition of entrepreneurship and hard work. One could say it's a meta tradition; ok.
    - noodle 16y ago
potatolicious 16y ago
Oh bullshit - I'm surprised you got as many upvotes given that this is supposed to be the entrepreneurial bunch (and our previous mega-thread involving Scott the useless college grad). Boo hoo, so the economic sucks and you were lied to your whole life about how your employment situation was going to work. So? This does not excuse laziness and a crappy work ethic. Perhaps their chronic unemployment stems from the fact that they meander through life rather than actively fighting for what they want. Japan isn't some third-world backwater, there are opportunities abound for people who are willing to work and fight for it - just like it still is in the US. The ones that sit and pout all day (like Scott, from the NYT article) are the ones who will never get out.
- noodle 16y ago
  what is the expected outcome if someone fights hard for years and sees no success? is it never justified for someone to fight hard, see they're not getting anywhere, and then drop their effort level down to match the situation they're in, permanently or temporarily?
  - bpyne 16y ago
    This hopelessness shows up in the US as well. It's the people who fall off the unemployment stats and have given up looking for work. Another group of people stay on government assistance because they realize that paying for daycare, rent, etc. would add up to more than they make. So, they live off government assistance as long as possible.
    - masklinn 16y ago
      > Another group of people stay on government assistance because they realize that paying for daycare, rent, etc. would add up to more than they make. FWIW I've seen that happen in France: the social safety net tends to be pretty strong, but the transition from that safety net to its absence is anything but smooth. I'd go as far as to say it's pretty abrupt. A decade or so ago, my parents started employing a domestic worker to take care of laundry, sweeping, that kind of stuff. First one was a professional, second one was somebody who'd been "on the dole" for a long time and trying to get out of it (single mother, in her 40s, two children). Went swimmingly early on, but a pair of quarters in she realized she had gone above some kind of cut-off, and as a result she didn't qualify for some govt assistance as well as e.g. government-sponsored holidays for her children. That added up to at least twice what she actually earned. She decided to tough it up and keep trying to climb out, but I'd have understand dropping out: when you start making efforts and all of a sudden your standard of living drops sharply, it's not exactly worth it.

MikeMacMan 16y ago

I think the temp and contract work has increased because the contracting and temp staffing industry has exploded in Japan in the last 15 years. There's also more fluidity in the labor market now, meaning that people can more easily move from job to job without being stigmatized. For someone in their 20s who can't or doesn't want to depend on their parents for a place to live, then the prospect of making 2500yen/hr as a temp, instead of a paltry 200,000/month (and being overworked) as a salaried employee, is appealing.

patio11 16y ago

That is a social phenomenon alright, but freeters are not coextensive with Japanese youth. Japanese companies offering part-time employment frequently offer it on a day-labor basis: you do your day, you get your money, and you and the company are even. The employment relationship is as durable as those struck up with the gentlemen standing outside your local Home Depot in the United States. There are cell phone websites where you can browse jobs and be doing mind-numbing greeter-style work within 20 minutes. You'd find very, very different professional norms if you either hung around my salaryman buddies or hung around young ladies of my acquaintance who are on the "pink-collar" track.