10 ms·
Choosing New York over San Francisco
- mkelly 16y agoWell said. The point that Wall Street != New York is particularly important here, w.r.t Antonio's post. I've only been here a year, but I know New York is big, and it is not homogeneous. I don't think Antonio ever realized that. Also, kudos to blip.tv. I had a chance to meet a few of the blip kids a few months ago and you guys were really cool.
- biggitybones 16y agoSeconded. I rarely interact with those types, and I work for a major consulting company in the city. There are multiple ways to avoid that crowd, starting with staying out of Murray Hill. The thing I love about New York is the inherent challenge. You're among some of the most competitive people in the world who love nothing more than to squash your idea. And if you manage to convince those people or rise from their negativity, you know you're onto something. I view it in many ways as its own little market economy with (close to) perfect competition among commodities. If something facing fierce competition (like restaurants, for example) can hold its own, you know there's some quality behind it.
- davidw 16y ago> The thing I love about New York is the inherent challenge. You're among some of the most competitive people in the world who love nothing more than to squash your idea. And if you manage to convince those people or rise from their negativity, you know you're onto something. So you're saying that if you have the ability to make it there, the probability of making it in other locations is high?
- biggitybones 16y agoI always have trouble wording it in a way that doesn't convey that logic.. I just mean there's much more resistance to go through to vet your idea, for better or for worse. The NY tech community has a lot of the same personality as the HN community - just because you are a part of it doesn't make you less likely to succeed without it but it's great at providing guidance and critique. I hope that clarifies, I still haven't found a great way to articulate it appropriately.
- pvg 16y agohttp://www.lyricsfreak.com/f/frank+sinatra/new+york+new+york_20056380.html http://www.lyricsfreak.com/f/frank+sinatra/new+york+new+york... Take a look at the 5th stanza. Then look at the comment you're replying to.
- oziumjinx 16y agoi live in murray hill and love it. Close to grand central, union sq, madison sq park, great selection of restaurants (not trying to compare to downtown or even some ues areas), and it doesnt hurt that I work 4 blocks away from my apt. Plenty of cheesy bars that are sure to bring in the 'i just graduated and trying to break into PR' crowds of girls. Whats not to love?
- pvg 16y agoIt isn't but at the same time, Mountain View != San Francisco any more than Secaucus, NJ == New York. The whole thing boils down to a couple of guys who don't know what they're talking about blogging past each other. Which is their inalienable right, just not very interesting.
- sethg 16y agoI have even heard that Manhattan != New York, although my relatives on the Upper West Side treat Brooklyn as a distant and inaccessible planet.
- cageface 16y agoAnother common gripe about California that I'll echo here: there's no weather! It may sound masochistic but I miss the seasons, the snow, wearing a scarf, sheltering inside with a cold nose and hands with something warm. The passing of the seasons gives life a constant pulse and direction. The eternal summers of CA get to be disorienting after a while.
- pjhyett 16y agoI find the ability to drive and experience seasons, like going to Tahoe during winter, is far more agreeable than being forced into them. I spent 20 years in Chicago with its freezing winters and hot and humid summers and San Francisco's mild climate is a dream.
- risotto 16y agoHear hear. I do suspect no seasons makes some of the LA natives a bit wacky. It's good character building to deal with shitty weather for a while. But CA has all the advantages here. The day-to-day weather is consistent and mild, and there is easy access to whatever nature you desire for a change. Mountains for skiing, the ocean for swimming, surfing or boating, forests and deserts for hiking. I was stuck in Michigan weather for 20 years too. Literally stuck in the winter. Having options is much nicer than not having options.
- shadowfox 16y ago> no seasons makes some of the LA natives a bit wacky By the count entire countries in the tropics should be wacky :P
- cynicalkane 16y agoWell, to each his own. I'm from Oakland, CA and I am fine with Chicago weather. It can get uncomfortable, but I'll take that as a trade-off for my near-downtown apartment in one of America's greatest cities at half the cost of a comparable place in NY or SF. The summers are actually better--Oakland will get these horrible 90-100 degree heat waves--and the problem of winter is easily solved by adding more layers.
- Dnewz 16y agoIs san francisco ruby or python?
- seanroth 16y agopython :)
- Dnewz 16y agoDarn...then i have to move to ny. ;)
- api 16y agoI don't know, but Boston is C++. Its mixture of hacker culture, hyper-IQ academia, and classical puritan social values is sort of like implementing closures with template metaprogramming and special #ifdefs everywhere for compiler backward compatibility. It's puritan social values plus academic liberalism plus nerds. It is backward compatible but not strictly a superset. Comparing cities to programming languages thread GO!
- zackattack 16y agoDo you think Boston is the best city for nerds? I'm looking for a genuinely pro-intellectual climate.
- api 16y agoIt's pro-intellectual, but it's also a bit stuffy and introverted. If you like the quiet life, lots of academic options, and very tame social gatherings then Boston is for you. If you like excitement, extraverted social culture, and lots of new experiences then I'd look at SF. Boston has some plusses: it's a walking city... possibly the only true walking city in the country (of any size). You do not need a car. It's ridiculously safe for a big urban area. Bostonians' idea of a bad neighborhood is one without a Starbucks in eye-shot. It's very economically healthy and has a lot of good high paying techie jobs. But some of that could be said about SF too... just not the walking city part. (Well, SF proper can be handled without a car, but all the techie stuff is in the valley which is a car-centric suburb.) Both are among the nicest cities in the country.
- michael_h 16y ago"My city is better than yours!" "No, it isn't!" It's weird how opinions work, isn't it? I don't like either place - where does that leave me?
- risotto 16y agoHopefully it leaves you in the city you live in, content with your life and work and surroundings, just like the rest of us.
- ardit33 16y agoI think one major argument that he didn't mention is that NYC beats SF hands down in the 'getting laid' department. If you are young and your idea of having a good time is going out, partying until 4am, and getting laid often, then you should stay in NYC. If you a super hipster, social outcast and/or into weird stuff, then come to SF. Your friends are already here.
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- risotto 16y agoIt's shocking to me how few women there are in SF. The east coast is crawling with good looking, single young women. Most of them are really nice normal women with family oriented goals. Then NYC is full of wild girls that like to dress up, go out and have fun. LA is great in this regard too. Sure there are plenty of women in SF, but a good share of them are alt, hipster, vegan, etc. Nice enough still, but then the concentration of fairly well off guys really messes up the dating pool. Every time I go to a concert, it's mostly dudes and what women are there are literally held onto by a man. Then there are no no party girls anywhere, outside of a couple neighborhoods. SF still is really fun, just a lot tougher to get laid.
- ww520 16y agoThere are plenty of men in SF if that suits you.
- kingkawn 16y agowhy would people vote this comment down?
- SkyMarshal 16y agoB/c the OP just finished writing several paragraphs about women. Getting laid with men obviously doesn't 'suit' him, so the comment was a bit misdirected. Generally it's correct, but sounds a bit snarky when directed at someone who is clearly hetero.
- marcusbooster 16y agoI've lived in a number of cities and surprisingly the Internet looks the same in all of them.
- gaustin 16y agoI agree. The internet is the same here in Helena, MT as it is in any other city or town on the planet. Sure, the connection speeds leave a bit to be desired and there's little startup community. But there are exceedingly few places that have a quality of life to match it, especially if you are into trail running and mountain biking. Maybe it'll be a bit harder to startup here. Maybe I'll end up moving if I create a startup with legs, or after I completely trash my body running ultras. I've made my choice. I hope everyone else does too.
- flyosity 16y agoYou should also post this on Reddit to maximize the upvote potential of this one witty statement.
- cb33 16y agoPalo Alto is "socially dead"?
- jonknee 16y ago> Given the lifestyle in the City, products are much closer to the pavement and are a solution to a real-world problem from Day 1. Not some social network plaything. Humorous considering it's hosted by Tumblr, a social plaything based out of NYC. Foursquare is another that comes into mind as a questionably "real-world problem" solver social network plaything that came out of NYC.
- prodigal_erik 16y agoReal-world problems? I get that a lot of software is just toys, but isn't NYC the home of economy-jamming fictional assets which only exist so a permanent overclass of full time traders have something to make more side bets on?
- lr 16y agoI agree with the (title of the) post very much, but one major point I would like to make is: Mountain View != San Francisco! I find it very misleading when people talk about San Francisco (usually in a negative light) and what they are really talking about are the suburbs of SF. Please stop doing that. That would be like saying NYC is boring because you are actually talking about Yonkers.
- jbooth 16y agoYeah, but 80% of the tech employment is down there. So you either have a horrific commute or get to live in the suburbs. That alone seals it for me, I'm staying in NYC. Although maybe I'd get more work done if my immediate environment bored me to tears.
- papa 16y agoWell it is possible to work for a tech company and stay in SF. You just need to work with a more restrictive set of job requirements. I got tired of doing the long commute in 2003 and decided to only look at companies within the city limits. It took a year to find something I really liked, but it was life-changing to be able to work and live in the same place and avoid the 50-mile one-way commute. And, of course, you can start and operate your company out of SF (which is what I eventually did as well).
- wooster 16y agoNot every time, but much of the time, I try to talk about what I do with a New Yorker (most East Coasters, actually), they start by bringing a lot of stop energy[0]. They'll say something like "Why are you doing that when there's already X?"[1], "That'll never work because of Y"[2], "Why did you quit your job at Z?", "Why don't you go work at ABC Investments, Hedge Funds, and Worldwide Arbitrage, Inc?"[3], etc. It's frustrating and tiring to have to run through a huge body of what should be background knowledge just to have a conversation with someone about what I'm doing. In the Bay Area, I generally don't have to deal with: - Huge amounts of stop energy. - Myopic views about which industries/products/companies/places[4] matter. - Support of entrenched monopolies or ideas. - Excessive amounts of negativism. For example, when the iPhone came out, people in Silicon Valley were really excited. Meanwhile, talking to people in New York, it was almost a non-event; all I heard from them was why it would never matter because the Blackberry was so freaking awesome. [0] http://www.userland.com/whatIsStopEnergy http://www.userland.com/whatIsStopEnergy [1] Why are you going to work for Apple? Nobody uses Macs and Microsoft is a much bigger tech company. [2] Nobody here uses iPhones, you'd better get yourself a Blackberry! [3] The future is bundling mortgage securities! [4] If you can't find it in Manhattan, it can't be found! Best city in the world!
- api 16y ago[0] is awesome, thanks. I encounter a lot of stop energy, and unfortunately sometimes it works on me. I need to just ignore it.
- haseman 16y agoI'm not sure a little stop energy is such a bad thing. I'd say take their views with some salt...but Silicon Valley tends to be an echo-chamber. What's important in the valley isn't always important everywhere else. Unless your business/venture/idea is only targeted at people in the Bay Area, it pays to keep a little attention elsewhere.
- sabat 16y agoI think the iPhone alone proves that wrong.
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- ivorjawa 16y ago"San Francisco is fun, dont get me wrong. Compared to New York, its boring. I have trouble even thinking about living in an apartment in Mountain View, Cupertino or Palo Alto. Those places are socially dead." Last time I looked, none of those cities are San Francisco.
- mildweed 16y agoIf you want an affordable, quality place full of capable, motivated people, not to mention the headquarters of the Kauffman Foundation... Kansas City is the place.
- jakejohnson 16y agoI second this, KC is a great city for startups and very affordable. Lots of motivated people at Startup Weekend and other events... many Ruby and PHP devs, not enough design talent. UMKC is pushing entrepreneurship through their E&I institute and student venture incubators.
- Ixiaus 16y agoI like this rebuttal, a lot. I will say, having lived in California, Nevada, New Mexico, and Kentucky (not in that order) has made me realize this: culture counts for a lot, the internet is prolific, and calling any large American city a "technological backwater" is a farce. A lot of people = a diversity of ideas = culture = innovation. New York has a lot of people and a lot of culture, quite a bit of innovation has come out of that city; California (as a whole, not just the Valley, I live in SD right now) has a lot of people and a lot of culture. The same can be said for Atlanta, Dallas, etc... I will note this difference, though: much of California's culture embraces the leading edge more than it's east coast counterparts - computers and the internet is the leading edge; the internet is an agent of social reform and change, technology (computers) is the vessel through which widespread social reticulation is delivered. Therefore, I do not think New York is a technological backwater; but I do think the people in California/Portland/Seattle can be more progressive and this is why the west coast is carrying the torch. Small disclaimer: I've been to New York but I haven't lived there, my conclusion is derived much more from intuition than actual experience.
- gunmetal 16y agoPalo Alto is not in San Francisco. Look at a map. Comparing New York City to Palo Alto is like comparing San Francisco to Burlingame.
- jasonlbaptiste 16y agoWhat about Boston in this whole discussion?
- techiferous 16y agoWe're too busy coding and working on our startups to comment. ;)
- commanda 16y ago"Given the lifestyle in the City, products are much closer to the pavement and are a solution to a real-world problem from Day 1." This makes no sense. How does NYC's "lifestyle" create products that are any closer to "the pavement" than SF's does? Maybe Kelly should illustrate his point by choosing some NYC companies and comparing their products with SF products, or the products of startups from anywhere else for that matter?
- elbrodeur 16y agoThis rebuttal is hilarious. Kelly's TL:DR summary at the end should have been: • NYC is more fun! And interesting! I'm 23. • I work at a big company, but startups have happened here at least once. • What do I know? I'm only 23. The original article was articulate if a bit bombastic. The most salient points, which Kelly failed to address, were in my mind: • The Bay Area has a culture and history of tech innovation • The Bay Area has thousands of VCs and venture money • The Bay Area has top engineering schools • The Bay Area has tons (metric!) more startups, entrepreneurs, hackers, coders, etc. The most telling sentence in Kelly's post is: "The social component of a real city with museums, clubs, venues, pubs, bars and barcades is important." A "real city"! Wow. By Kelly's estimation there must be at most only 2 or 3 real cities on the entire planet.
- derekc 16y agoWhy the * does this matter? Start sh* anywhere.
- wangwei 16y agoIf you are trying to do a life style start up, New York is probably a good place. (i don't have anything against life style business). Most of the examples you gave,including the startup you work for are life style business. So sure they would be more practical and making money from day 1. But you're trying to do anything more ambitious, silicon vally is still the place to go.
- sdh 16y agoThe title says "San Francisco" but the article only mentions "Mountain View, Cupertino or Palo Alto" ... ??? What kind of comparison is this?
- sabat 16y agoIt shows us that the poster didn't understand where he lived. That's OK; there are enough of us here, don't you think?
- kp212 16y agoWhat about vendors for Wall Street? Anyone know where I could find vendors to Wall Street that are still essentially tech companies? I figure that market is huge in New York and might be a good alternative to the tradition IT in an IB job.
- apinstein 16y ago+1 from a guy that did 2 startups in NYC over 3 years as well. My sentiments exactly. They are different environments with pros and cons, but I preferred the social scene in NYC to SF by far.
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- sabat 16y agoCompared to New York, it’s boring. I have trouble even thinking about living in an apartment in Mountain View, Cupertino or Palo Alto. Those places are socially dead. This post suffers from the presumption that everyone wants the same thing from a city. So SF (really, the Bay Area) was not for you. It's for a lot of us. Not all of us want to suffer awful winters and unbearable summers. Some of us love natural beauty -- and not just the girls. And many of us like a different kind of social scene than NYC offers. Sure, NYC is exciting. I've been there, and not as a tourist. But it's not for me. (Then again, I'm not 20.) SF (proper, not the Bay Area in general) is the birthplace of cafe society. Mountain biking was born on Mt. Tam. This is a unique, beautiful place, and a lot of people can't figure it out -- and so they move. That's fine: we're already the largest state in the union. We don't need any more people, thank you.
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- probablycorey 16y agoSan Francisco is fun, don’t get me wrong. Compared to New York, it’s boring. I have trouble even thinking about living in an apartment in Mountain View, Cupertino or Palo Alto. Those places are socially dead. Mountain View, Cupertino or Palo Alto are not San Francisco. It is like saying... New York City is fun, don’t get me wrong. Compared to San Francisco, it’s boring. I have trouble even thinking about living in an apartment in Staten ISland, East Rockaway or Westchester. Those places are socially dead.
- moxiemk1 16y agoTrue, but the error is more of a mis-choice of words ('San Francisco' instead of 'Bay Area') rather than ideas, since If we're only considering San Francisco, the tech dominance starts to fade a little bit. Also, while we're calling people for misspeaking, Staten Island is New York City.
- jseliger 16y agoAlso, while we're calling people for misspeaking, Staten Island is New York City. True, but Staten Island feels like New Jersey -- even, I suspect, to most New Yorkers. I have a friend from Staten Island, and when I talk about going back to New Jersey, it drives her crazy. I can't imagine people from New Jersey minding being mistaken for New Yorkers...
- chaostheory 16y agoEvery once in awhile, you see a Google emerge from the Valley. But for every Google emerging from the Valley, there are ten thousand equally ambitious startups that fail. Some of them fail catastrophically... Given the lifestyle in the City, products are much closer to the pavement and are a solution to a real-world problem from Day 1. Not some social network plaything. This is the main reason NY will never usurp Silicon Valley. Tech-wise NY's culture is too conventional. "Why build Z when X is good enough?" "This idea is stupid." "What's the point? It doesn't make any money."
- capedape 16y agoHaving lived both places SF feels like the place where new ideas meet with the least resistance. In New York I'm more inclined to want to go out and ogle girls in summer dresses, but NY is a very inspiring place to live, no doubt.
- usaar333 16y agoNothing like an inflammatory rebuttal to an inflammatory essay. "The social component of a real city with museums, clubs, venues, pubs, bars and barcades is important." SF has all of these. Obviously less by virtue of being in a metro area a third the size of NYC, but you aren't going to get bored. "Am I paying for a car? No." Many San Franciscans don't drive. That being said, having a car always has its benefits - and a car in NYC (at least in Manhattan) is even tougher than in SF. "In short, New York City is more interesting and—I believe—better suited for the startup and a young guy’s lifestyle" Well, we all have different lifestyles. I enjoy yearlong mountain biking that's only minutes away. I enjoy awesome snowboarding only 3 hours away. I enjoy climbing 14,000 foot mountains. I enjoy not sweating in humid, hot summers and freezing in snowy, cold winters. I've spent about a month of my life in NYC (over various trips) and would hands down take SF over it.
- dmor 16y agoTitle really should be "Choosing New York over Silicon Valley" - the city of San Francisco is night and day different from bedroom communities like Palo Alto, Mountain View, etc.
- steilpass 16y ago>along with Seattle, Los Angeles, Düsseldorf and Berlin So how is Düsseldorf, Berlin compared to NYC and SF? Would you have moved to Berlin if blib.tv was there?