6 ms·

People vote on party lines a super high rate in most areas on the US, it's close to 90% except in unusual cases. Contemporarily it's the reason GOP voters have

People vote on party lines a super high rate in most areas on the US, it's close to 90% except in unusual cases. Contemporarily it's the reason GOP voters have a tough time choosing between a sexual predator and a Democrat in the Alabama special Senate election, one side thinks the other side is so evil they feel this is a difficult choice. Also gerrymandering for districts make it so once it's guaranteed to be a party seat, the primaries can skew towards the extreme of that party.

rbritton 9y ago
Allegations of sexual misconduct and an actual conviction are two very different things, though modern society tends to treat them as equivalent. I don't know what actually happened, but it's dangerous to ever let go of that legal right.
- pjc50 9y ago
  Do you apply that standard to every allegation in an election?
- rayiner 9y ago
  > Allegations of sexual misconduct and an actual conviction are two very different things, though modern society tends to treat them as equivalent. A court determination isn't possible in the Moore case. In Alabama, the statute of limitations for a civil claim of sexual abuse of a minor is just years past the victim's 19th birthday. Roy Moore could still in theory still be prosecuted criminally because one of the victims was under 16 and the statute of limitations for sexual abuse of a minor is unlimited, but really there is no chance of that. But just because allegations don't rise to the level of imprisoning someone doesn't mean that's the end of it. Reputations typically are mediated by non-legal means. If someone writes a blog post: "don't invest with <X> he ripped me off," nobody demands to see the civil judgment for fraud.
  - adfskjldsjfk 9y ago
    Remember the Clintons got away with it every time?
    - techsupporter 9y ago
      Good (allegedly) for them. The whataboutism is getting super annoying. Neither Clinton is running for public office and the last one who did so wound up losing. If you want to have "Clinton is unworthy of receiving my vote / being elected to this office" as a debate, go for it once it matters. The topic of debate is whether the Republican candidate for the United States Senate from Alabama, Roy Moore, meets the public's reasons for being elected. That he is alleged--by multiple people, all of whom have very low incentive to lie have credible-sounding stores--to have committed sexual assault on several minors is a factor in that decision, whether or not he is actually convicted because there's a difference between legally convicted and what the world thinks of you (otherwise people wouldn't care about if you "were ever arrested" on job applications).
      - rayiner 9y ago
        I think OP’s point may have been that Clinton was never convicted, but that doesn’t mean his reputation shouldn’t suffer as a result of the credible allegations.
        Spooky23 9y ago
        He’s one of a small club of presidents who was impeached, and whose agenda was completely upended. History won’t treat him well.
        MBCook 9y ago
        It was also ~20 years ago when we (sadly) didn’t treat things nearly as seriously. On The Media has a nice piece on exactly this topic over the weekend.
    - nerfhammer 9y ago
      If impeachment counts as getting away with it
- anigbrowl 9y ago
  Yes, but you have people who say they believe the allegations but are inclined to vote for him anyway because of their ideology.
- cortesoft 9y ago
  So are you saying that no matter how much evidence there is showing that someone is guilty, you should NEVER use that information to help guide your vote decision unless that person has been convicted by a court of law? That is just silly, and you can easily see why with just a little bit of thought. Almost everything you use in determining who to vote for in an election has not been adjudicated in a court of law, but you still use it to form your opinion of who should be elected. There is a difference between the courts not sentencing you for a crime until you are convicted and a voter using accusations against a candidate to inform their vote.
oh_sigh 9y ago
Alleged sexual predator. edit: Why downvotes? An alleged sexual predator and a sexual predator are two different things. Anyone can become an alleged sexual predator with an allegation, whereas sexual predators are sexual predators through their own actions, regardless of allegations. At this point no one really knows if Roy Moore is a sexual predator or not besides for Roy Moore and his accuser, who is only attempting to try Moore in the court of public opinion and not in a court of law, despite retaining council of a very well known lawyer.
- anigbrowl 9y ago
  You're not helping your argument by pretending there's only one person accusing him of such behavior, when in fact there are many and doing so from a variety of perspectives. You would still be entitled to be skeptical of such allegations, of course, but their multiplicity is an empirical fact that you seem unwilling to acknowledge.
  - oh_sigh 9y ago
    Dating 18/19 year olds in your 20s/30s does not make you a sexual predator. As far as I understand it there was only one person who is accusing Moore of actual crimes, who alleges he dated and kissed her when she was 14. Are there other allegations I missed? It's very interesting that Moore has been quite an active and public elected official in the past, but every current accuser independently decided to not say anything until this election cycle. What gives?
    - rhcom2 9y ago
      https://politics.theonion.com/roy-moore-on-pedophilia-accusers-these-women-are-only-1820405898 https://politics.theonion.com/roy-moore-on-pedophilia-accuse...
      - oh_sigh 9y ago
        If you have anything substantive to add, it would be better to not link to the onion.
cwbrandsma 9y ago
Tag line I keep seeing is "Pedophile vs Abortionist", or the less quaint "Pedophile vs baby killer". You can argue over which is true or not about the Democrat (I don't live in that state and know nothing of the candidate...I'm reporting on my Facebook feed and and a few subreddits I subscribe), but I'm seeing acceptance over the Pedophile part, and abortion is a hot button topic among the religiously conservative.
- ModernMech 9y ago
  Here is one report about some Alabama faith leaders who claim they would vote for Moore even if the allegations are true: http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2017/11/19/why-evangelicals-are-again-backing-republican-despite-allegations-sexual-misconduct/nls3lkhOHopU5fUe6bM2hJ/story.html http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2017/11/19/why-evange...
  - briandear 9y ago
    However, women voted Bill Clinton and feminists aggressively supported him despite his sexual assault of multiple women. So there are ideological nutcases on all sides.
    - ryanwaggoner 9y ago
      I don't think that's fair except in hindsight. The entire national conversation and attitude towards sexual harassment and sexual assault was pretty different 2 years ago, let alone 20 years ago. And to their credit, a number of liberal writers and thinkers have recently admitted that they got it wrong and should have called for Clinton's impeachment / resignation in light of the accusations back then.
- mnm1 9y ago
  Of course they don't want an abortionist. Then they won't have enough kids for all the pedophiles. /s As an outsider, it's impossible to have any respect for anyone who even considers voting for sexual predators (especially those of children) or any culture in which that is at all acceptable.

rbritton 9y ago

Allegations of sexual misconduct and an actual conviction are two very different things, though modern society tends to treat them as equivalent. I don't know what actually happened, but it's dangerous to ever let go of that legal right.

pjc50 9y ago
Do you apply that standard to every allegation in an election?
rayiner 9y ago
> Allegations of sexual misconduct and an actual conviction are two very different things, though modern society tends to treat them as equivalent. A court determination isn't possible in the Moore case. In Alabama, the statute of limitations for a civil claim of sexual abuse of a minor is just years past the victim's 19th birthday. Roy Moore could still in theory still be prosecuted criminally because one of the victims was under 16 and the statute of limitations for sexual abuse of a minor is unlimited, but really there is no chance of that. But just because allegations don't rise to the level of imprisoning someone doesn't mean that's the end of it. Reputations typically are mediated by non-legal means. If someone writes a blog post: "don't invest with <X> he ripped me off," nobody demands to see the civil judgment for fraud.
- adfskjldsjfk 9y ago
  Remember the Clintons got away with it every time?
  - techsupporter 9y ago
    Good (allegedly) for them. The whataboutism is getting super annoying. Neither Clinton is running for public office and the last one who did so wound up losing. If you want to have "Clinton is unworthy of receiving my vote / being elected to this office" as a debate, go for it once it matters. The topic of debate is whether the Republican candidate for the United States Senate from Alabama, Roy Moore, meets the public's reasons for being elected. That he is alleged--by multiple people, all of whom have very low incentive to lie have credible-sounding stores--to have committed sexual assault on several minors is a factor in that decision, whether or not he is actually convicted because there's a difference between legally convicted and what the world thinks of you (otherwise people wouldn't care about if you "were ever arrested" on job applications).
    - rayiner 9y ago
      I think OP’s point may have been that Clinton was never convicted, but that doesn’t mean his reputation shouldn’t suffer as a result of the credible allegations.
      - Spooky23 9y ago
        He’s one of a small club of presidents who was impeached, and whose agenda was completely upended. History won’t treat him well.
        MBCook 9y ago
        It was also ~20 years ago when we (sadly) didn’t treat things nearly as seriously. On The Media has a nice piece on exactly this topic over the weekend.
  - nerfhammer 9y ago
    If impeachment counts as getting away with it
anigbrowl 9y ago
Yes, but you have people who say they believe the allegations but are inclined to vote for him anyway because of their ideology.
cortesoft 9y ago
So are you saying that no matter how much evidence there is showing that someone is guilty, you should NEVER use that information to help guide your vote decision unless that person has been convicted by a court of law? That is just silly, and you can easily see why with just a little bit of thought. Almost everything you use in determining who to vote for in an election has not been adjudicated in a court of law, but you still use it to form your opinion of who should be elected. There is a difference between the courts not sentencing you for a crime until you are convicted and a voter using accusations against a candidate to inform their vote.

oh_sigh 9y ago

Alleged sexual predator. edit: Why downvotes? An alleged sexual predator and a sexual predator are two different things. Anyone can become an alleged sexual predator with an allegation, whereas sexual predators are sexual predators through their own actions, regardless of allegations. At this point no one really knows if Roy Moore is a sexual predator or not besides for Roy Moore and his accuser, who is only attempting to try Moore in the court of public opinion and not in a court of law, despite retaining council of a very well known lawyer.

anigbrowl 9y ago
You're not helping your argument by pretending there's only one person accusing him of such behavior, when in fact there are many and doing so from a variety of perspectives. You would still be entitled to be skeptical of such allegations, of course, but their multiplicity is an empirical fact that you seem unwilling to acknowledge.
- oh_sigh 9y ago
  Dating 18/19 year olds in your 20s/30s does not make you a sexual predator. As far as I understand it there was only one person who is accusing Moore of actual crimes, who alleges he dated and kissed her when she was 14. Are there other allegations I missed? It's very interesting that Moore has been quite an active and public elected official in the past, but every current accuser independently decided to not say anything until this election cycle. What gives?
  - rhcom2 9y ago
    https://politics.theonion.com/roy-moore-on-pedophilia-accusers-these-women-are-only-1820405898 https://politics.theonion.com/roy-moore-on-pedophilia-accuse...
    - oh_sigh 9y ago
      If you have anything substantive to add, it would be better to not link to the onion.

cwbrandsma 9y ago

Tag line I keep seeing is "Pedophile vs Abortionist", or the less quaint "Pedophile vs baby killer". You can argue over which is true or not about the Democrat (I don't live in that state and know nothing of the candidate...I'm reporting on my Facebook feed and and a few subreddits I subscribe), but I'm seeing acceptance over the Pedophile part, and abortion is a hot button topic among the religiously conservative.

ModernMech 9y ago
Here is one report about some Alabama faith leaders who claim they would vote for Moore even if the allegations are true: http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2017/11/19/why-evangelicals-are-again-backing-republican-despite-allegations-sexual-misconduct/nls3lkhOHopU5fUe6bM2hJ/story.html http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2017/11/19/why-evange...
- briandear 9y ago
  However, women voted Bill Clinton and feminists aggressively supported him despite his sexual assault of multiple women. So there are ideological nutcases on all sides.
  - ryanwaggoner 9y ago
    I don't think that's fair except in hindsight. The entire national conversation and attitude towards sexual harassment and sexual assault was pretty different 2 years ago, let alone 20 years ago. And to their credit, a number of liberal writers and thinkers have recently admitted that they got it wrong and should have called for Clinton's impeachment / resignation in light of the accusations back then.
mnm1 9y ago
Of course they don't want an abortionist. Then they won't have enough kids for all the pedophiles. /s As an outsider, it's impossible to have any respect for anyone who even considers voting for sexual predators (especially those of children) or any culture in which that is at all acceptable.