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I'm always confused as to how the Koch-funded candidates did so well on almost comically evil platforms. It seems the referendum on "Obama" policies in 2010 did

I'm always confused as to how the Koch-funded candidates did so well on almost comically evil platforms. It seems the referendum on "Obama" policies in 2010 did nothing but damage the states they were elected in and did little to solve any real problems. People thought they were sticking it to the feds but really just shot themselves in the foot. Massive cuts in every department, even things like transportation which shouldn't be a hyper partisan issue. I get that abortion clinics or healthcare is a hot button issue, but building roads? Who looked at that platform and said, you know, I wish we'd stop spending so much money on maintaining our crumbling roads? Populist anger did little to improve anyone's lives and you also saw this in the 2016 election. For as angry as everyone was at the status quo, what do we have now? Even worse status quo, vis a vis the new tax plan which is just a oligarchic power grab and a president who literally cannot govern to save his life.

stevenwoo 9y ago
People vote on party lines a super high rate in most areas on the US, it's close to 90% except in unusual cases. Contemporarily it's the reason GOP voters have a tough time choosing between a sexual predator and a Democrat in the Alabama special Senate election, one side thinks the other side is so evil they feel this is a difficult choice. Also gerrymandering for districts make it so once it's guaranteed to be a party seat, the primaries can skew towards the extreme of that party.
- rbritton 9y ago
  Allegations of sexual misconduct and an actual conviction are two very different things, though modern society tends to treat them as equivalent. I don't know what actually happened, but it's dangerous to ever let go of that legal right.
  - pjc50 9y ago
    Do you apply that standard to every allegation in an election?
  - rayiner 9y ago
    > Allegations of sexual misconduct and an actual conviction are two very different things, though modern society tends to treat them as equivalent. A court determination isn't possible in the Moore case. In Alabama, the statute of limitations for a civil claim of sexual abuse of a minor is just years past the victim's 19th birthday. Roy Moore could still in theory still be prosecuted criminally because one of the victims was under 16 and the statute of limitations for sexual abuse of a minor is unlimited, but really there is no chance of that. But just because allegations don't rise to the level of imprisoning someone doesn't mean that's the end of it. Reputations typically are mediated by non-legal means. If someone writes a blog post: "don't invest with <X> he ripped me off," nobody demands to see the civil judgment for fraud.
    - adfskjldsjfk 9y ago
      Remember the Clintons got away with it every time?
      - techsupporter 9y ago
        Good (allegedly) for them. The whataboutism is getting super annoying. Neither Clinton is running for public office and the last one who did so wound up losing. If you want to have "Clinton is unworthy of receiving my vote / being elected to this office" as a debate, go for it once it matters. The topic of debate is whether the Republican candidate for the United States Senate from Alabama, Roy Moore, meets the public's reasons for being elected. That he is alleged--by multiple people, all of whom have very low incentive to lie have credible-sounding stores--to have committed sexual assault on several minors is a factor in that decision, whether or not he is actually convicted because there's a difference between legally convicted and what the world thinks of you (otherwise people wouldn't care about if you "were ever arrested" on job applications).
        rayiner 9y ago
        I think OP’s point may have been that Clinton was never convicted, but that doesn’t mean his reputation shouldn’t suffer as a result of the credible allegations.
  - anigbrowl 9y ago
    Yes, but you have people who say they believe the allegations but are inclined to vote for him anyway because of their ideology.
  - cortesoft 9y ago
    So are you saying that no matter how much evidence there is showing that someone is guilty, you should NEVER use that information to help guide your vote decision unless that person has been convicted by a court of law? That is just silly, and you can easily see why with just a little bit of thought. Almost everything you use in determining who to vote for in an election has not been adjudicated in a court of law, but you still use it to form your opinion of who should be elected. There is a difference between the courts not sentencing you for a crime until you are convicted and a voter using accusations against a candidate to inform their vote.
- oh_sigh 9y ago
  Alleged sexual predator. edit: Why downvotes? An alleged sexual predator and a sexual predator are two different things. Anyone can become an alleged sexual predator with an allegation, whereas sexual predators are sexual predators through their own actions, regardless of allegations. At this point no one really knows if Roy Moore is a sexual predator or not besides for Roy Moore and his accuser, who is only attempting to try Moore in the court of public opinion and not in a court of law, despite retaining council of a very well known lawyer.
  - anigbrowl 9y ago
    You're not helping your argument by pretending there's only one person accusing him of such behavior, when in fact there are many and doing so from a variety of perspectives. You would still be entitled to be skeptical of such allegations, of course, but their multiplicity is an empirical fact that you seem unwilling to acknowledge.
    - oh_sigh 9y ago
      Dating 18/19 year olds in your 20s/30s does not make you a sexual predator. As far as I understand it there was only one person who is accusing Moore of actual crimes, who alleges he dated and kissed her when she was 14. Are there other allegations I missed? It's very interesting that Moore has been quite an active and public elected official in the past, but every current accuser independently decided to not say anything until this election cycle. What gives?
      - rhcom2 9y ago
        https://politics.theonion.com/roy-moore-on-pedophilia-accusers-these-women-are-only-1820405898 https://politics.theonion.com/roy-moore-on-pedophilia-accuse...
        oh_sigh 9y ago
        If you have anything substantive to add, it would be better to not link to the onion.
- cwbrandsma 9y ago
  Tag line I keep seeing is "Pedophile vs Abortionist", or the less quaint "Pedophile vs baby killer". You can argue over which is true or not about the Democrat (I don't live in that state and know nothing of the candidate...I'm reporting on my Facebook feed and and a few subreddits I subscribe), but I'm seeing acceptance over the Pedophile part, and abortion is a hot button topic among the religiously conservative.
  - ModernMech 9y ago
    Here is one report about some Alabama faith leaders who claim they would vote for Moore even if the allegations are true: http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2017/11/19/why-evangelicals-are-again-backing-republican-despite-allegations-sexual-misconduct/nls3lkhOHopU5fUe6bM2hJ/story.html http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2017/11/19/why-evange...
    - briandear 9y ago
      However, women voted Bill Clinton and feminists aggressively supported him despite his sexual assault of multiple women. So there are ideological nutcases on all sides.
      - ryanwaggoner 9y ago
        I don't think that's fair except in hindsight. The entire national conversation and attitude towards sexual harassment and sexual assault was pretty different 2 years ago, let alone 20 years ago. And to their credit, a number of liberal writers and thinkers have recently admitted that they got it wrong and should have called for Clinton's impeachment / resignation in light of the accusations back then.
  - mnm1 9y ago
    Of course they don't want an abortionist. Then they won't have enough kids for all the pedophiles. /s As an outsider, it's impossible to have any respect for anyone who even considers voting for sexual predators (especially those of children) or any culture in which that is at all acceptable.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
JumpCrisscross 9y ago
> Who looked a that platform and said, you know, I wish we'd stop spending so much money on maintaining our crumbling roads? Having watched 26th Street paved, torn up for one utility, re-paved, torn up for another utility, re-paved, torn up for a construction project that was scheduled months in advance and re-paved again, all in the span of two weeks, I empathize with this sentiment. In certain states and cities, public spending is so wasteful that returning the cash to private citizens can feel, if not be, better than continuing to throw it down a hole. The effect can persist if people rationalize away the pain as necessary medicine.
- jorblumesea 9y ago
  Totally, but you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Combating government waste is a solvable issue and requires civilian accountability, transparency etc. Elect more progressive candidates instead of Koch funded stooges. Instead of demanding more from our government we instead decide to just destroy it and elect destructive backwards candidates whose only real solution is regression to some developing world state. The "starve the beast" mentality just doesn't work, and serves only to ensure the average person suffers. I guess it doesn't help that the Right has been engaged in a war against education for decades now...
- pm90 9y ago
  We choose to be Governed by a system that has a tendency to be inefficient at times. The solution is probably to try and fix it rather than abandon it altogether. It seems to have worked for the past 200+ years...
  - rayiner 9y ago
    Our government isn't just inefficient at times. It's notably less efficient than other developed countries. E.g. even if you take military spending out of the equation, Canada provides more services to citizens while spending a couple of thousand dollars less per head than we do. Peoples' frustrations aren't unwarranted.
    - 9y ago
NOSHSHNACKERS 9y ago
Brexit
MisterBastahrd 9y ago
The right wing of the US has been conditioned for 3+ decades now to hate secular liberal ideals in general and the Obamas / Clintons in particular. Neither Bill or Hillary Clinton have held an elected office in years, but you'd never know it by viewing any of the big conservative outlets. Those outlets created boogeymen who are easy to get a negative response from, and their politically aligned allies just run against those boogeymen and win, because voting against Evil(tm) makes being screwed feel a little better.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

stevenwoo 9y ago

People vote on party lines a super high rate in most areas on the US, it's close to 90% except in unusual cases. Contemporarily it's the reason GOP voters have a tough time choosing between a sexual predator and a Democrat in the Alabama special Senate election, one side thinks the other side is so evil they feel this is a difficult choice. Also gerrymandering for districts make it so once it's guaranteed to be a party seat, the primaries can skew towards the extreme of that party.

rbritton 9y ago
Allegations of sexual misconduct and an actual conviction are two very different things, though modern society tends to treat them as equivalent. I don't know what actually happened, but it's dangerous to ever let go of that legal right.
- pjc50 9y ago
  Do you apply that standard to every allegation in an election?
- rayiner 9y ago
  > Allegations of sexual misconduct and an actual conviction are two very different things, though modern society tends to treat them as equivalent. A court determination isn't possible in the Moore case. In Alabama, the statute of limitations for a civil claim of sexual abuse of a minor is just years past the victim's 19th birthday. Roy Moore could still in theory still be prosecuted criminally because one of the victims was under 16 and the statute of limitations for sexual abuse of a minor is unlimited, but really there is no chance of that. But just because allegations don't rise to the level of imprisoning someone doesn't mean that's the end of it. Reputations typically are mediated by non-legal means. If someone writes a blog post: "don't invest with <X> he ripped me off," nobody demands to see the civil judgment for fraud.
  - adfskjldsjfk 9y ago
    Remember the Clintons got away with it every time?
    - techsupporter 9y ago
      Good (allegedly) for them. The whataboutism is getting super annoying. Neither Clinton is running for public office and the last one who did so wound up losing. If you want to have "Clinton is unworthy of receiving my vote / being elected to this office" as a debate, go for it once it matters. The topic of debate is whether the Republican candidate for the United States Senate from Alabama, Roy Moore, meets the public's reasons for being elected. That he is alleged--by multiple people, all of whom have very low incentive to lie have credible-sounding stores--to have committed sexual assault on several minors is a factor in that decision, whether or not he is actually convicted because there's a difference between legally convicted and what the world thinks of you (otherwise people wouldn't care about if you "were ever arrested" on job applications).
      - rayiner 9y ago
        I think OP’s point may have been that Clinton was never convicted, but that doesn’t mean his reputation shouldn’t suffer as a result of the credible allegations.
- anigbrowl 9y ago
  Yes, but you have people who say they believe the allegations but are inclined to vote for him anyway because of their ideology.
- cortesoft 9y ago
  So are you saying that no matter how much evidence there is showing that someone is guilty, you should NEVER use that information to help guide your vote decision unless that person has been convicted by a court of law? That is just silly, and you can easily see why with just a little bit of thought. Almost everything you use in determining who to vote for in an election has not been adjudicated in a court of law, but you still use it to form your opinion of who should be elected. There is a difference between the courts not sentencing you for a crime until you are convicted and a voter using accusations against a candidate to inform their vote.
oh_sigh 9y ago
Alleged sexual predator. edit: Why downvotes? An alleged sexual predator and a sexual predator are two different things. Anyone can become an alleged sexual predator with an allegation, whereas sexual predators are sexual predators through their own actions, regardless of allegations. At this point no one really knows if Roy Moore is a sexual predator or not besides for Roy Moore and his accuser, who is only attempting to try Moore in the court of public opinion and not in a court of law, despite retaining council of a very well known lawyer.
- anigbrowl 9y ago
  You're not helping your argument by pretending there's only one person accusing him of such behavior, when in fact there are many and doing so from a variety of perspectives. You would still be entitled to be skeptical of such allegations, of course, but their multiplicity is an empirical fact that you seem unwilling to acknowledge.
  - oh_sigh 9y ago
    Dating 18/19 year olds in your 20s/30s does not make you a sexual predator. As far as I understand it there was only one person who is accusing Moore of actual crimes, who alleges he dated and kissed her when she was 14. Are there other allegations I missed? It's very interesting that Moore has been quite an active and public elected official in the past, but every current accuser independently decided to not say anything until this election cycle. What gives?
    - rhcom2 9y ago
      https://politics.theonion.com/roy-moore-on-pedophilia-accusers-these-women-are-only-1820405898 https://politics.theonion.com/roy-moore-on-pedophilia-accuse...
      - oh_sigh 9y ago
        If you have anything substantive to add, it would be better to not link to the onion.
cwbrandsma 9y ago
Tag line I keep seeing is "Pedophile vs Abortionist", or the less quaint "Pedophile vs baby killer". You can argue over which is true or not about the Democrat (I don't live in that state and know nothing of the candidate...I'm reporting on my Facebook feed and and a few subreddits I subscribe), but I'm seeing acceptance over the Pedophile part, and abortion is a hot button topic among the religiously conservative.
- ModernMech 9y ago
  Here is one report about some Alabama faith leaders who claim they would vote for Moore even if the allegations are true: http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2017/11/19/why-evangelicals-are-again-backing-republican-despite-allegations-sexual-misconduct/nls3lkhOHopU5fUe6bM2hJ/story.html http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2017/11/19/why-evange...
  - briandear 9y ago
    However, women voted Bill Clinton and feminists aggressively supported him despite his sexual assault of multiple women. So there are ideological nutcases on all sides.
    - ryanwaggoner 9y ago
      I don't think that's fair except in hindsight. The entire national conversation and attitude towards sexual harassment and sexual assault was pretty different 2 years ago, let alone 20 years ago. And to their credit, a number of liberal writers and thinkers have recently admitted that they got it wrong and should have called for Clinton's impeachment / resignation in light of the accusations back then.
- mnm1 9y ago
  Of course they don't want an abortionist. Then they won't have enough kids for all the pedophiles. /s As an outsider, it's impossible to have any respect for anyone who even considers voting for sexual predators (especially those of children) or any culture in which that is at all acceptable.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

JumpCrisscross 9y ago

> Who looked a that platform and said, you know, I wish we'd stop spending so much money on maintaining our crumbling roads? Having watched 26th Street paved, torn up for one utility, re-paved, torn up for another utility, re-paved, torn up for a construction project that was scheduled months in advance and re-paved again, all in the span of two weeks, I empathize with this sentiment. In certain states and cities, public spending is so wasteful that returning the cash to private citizens can feel, if not be, better than continuing to throw it down a hole. The effect can persist if people rationalize away the pain as necessary medicine.

jorblumesea 9y ago
Totally, but you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Combating government waste is a solvable issue and requires civilian accountability, transparency etc. Elect more progressive candidates instead of Koch funded stooges. Instead of demanding more from our government we instead decide to just destroy it and elect destructive backwards candidates whose only real solution is regression to some developing world state. The "starve the beast" mentality just doesn't work, and serves only to ensure the average person suffers. I guess it doesn't help that the Right has been engaged in a war against education for decades now...
pm90 9y ago
We choose to be Governed by a system that has a tendency to be inefficient at times. The solution is probably to try and fix it rather than abandon it altogether. It seems to have worked for the past 200+ years...
- rayiner 9y ago
  Our government isn't just inefficient at times. It's notably less efficient than other developed countries. E.g. even if you take military spending out of the equation, Canada provides more services to citizens while spending a couple of thousand dollars less per head than we do. Peoples' frustrations aren't unwarranted.
  - 9y ago

NOSHSHNACKERS 9y ago

Brexit

MisterBastahrd 9y ago

The right wing of the US has been conditioned for 3+ decades now to hate secular liberal ideals in general and the Obamas / Clintons in particular. Neither Bill or Hillary Clinton have held an elected office in years, but you'd never know it by viewing any of the big conservative outlets. Those outlets created boogeymen who are easy to get a negative response from, and their politically aligned allies just run against those boogeymen and win, because voting against Evil(tm) makes being screwed feel a little better.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]