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An ex-trucker has some questions about the Tesla Semi

71 points by ranit 9y ago

bryanlarsen 9y ago
Re: central seating position. Try driving a combine harvester or an agricultural tractor pulling a long train of equipment. They can be heavier, longer, and/or wider than a semi. They use a high central seating position for a reason. Re: mirrors. They're not there for aerodynamic reasons. The semi has a lot of cameras, so you'll have to use the screens. Sometimes a mirror or sticking your head out the window might be preferable, but it's a reasonable substitute. Re: night mode. It'd be nice if they used OLED screens with a dark theme so you can really crank down the brightness and black is completely black. Still time to change that if it isn't, so hopefully somebody from Tesla is reading this and/or advocating for it.
- jsight 9y ago
  I was thinking the same thing about the mirrors. Physical mirrors have their own limitations (poor in low light, poor when there is a badly placed bright light due to glare, etc), its just that we are used to dealing with them. Tesla's implementation may turn out to be better than that. Of course, it is also possible that Tesla's implementation may turn out to be worse, and his article was phrased as a list of questions that he would like to resolve in a test drive.
  - bryanlarsen 9y ago
    A camera is preferable in some situations, mirrors and sticking your head out the window in others. Why can't we have both and use the best as the situation demands?
- falcolas 9y ago
  > Try driving a combine harvester or an agricultural tractor pulling a long train of equipment. Those are not typically driving on roads though. The seated position next to the center line means you don't have to pull as far into the other lane to see oncoming traffic. Semis pass too. WRT mirrors: no matter the high tech solution, having a manual backup is a prudent precaution. A mirror is harder to take out with a single splash of mud. It will also ease the transition between driving normal rigs to driving the Tesla rigs. Drivers working within their comfort zone is important when they're running for 10 hours at a time. [EDIT] Wrote this before reading the article; frankly, the author does a much better job explaining why so many mirrors are a bonus (it's not just behind the truck that matters), and covers the central seating explanation much better. Short of being a trucker, I'm not sure how we can contradict his comments.
  - tombrossman 9y ago
    > A mirror is harder to take out with a single splash of mud. Never mind mud, what about the ice? I drove trucks for a while and the entire front of my truck was routinely coated with snow, slush, and ice. If it was heavy enough I'd have to pull over and tap at it with a 'tire thumper' to knock huge chunks off periodically. Keeping the windshield clear was a constant battle. I wonder what kind of camera or sensor could be used that wouldn't ice up. Traditional mirrors have heating and most are enclosed in a front-facing housing. They get really hard to see out of too, because the salt and sand spray kicked up by the vehicle in front of you sticks to the heated glass of the mirror and collects there. Visibility in winter driving is a difficult problem but perhaps that can be improved.
    - saulrh 9y ago
      I'd expect cameras to be easier to keep clear in extreme circumstances, actually. The key is the "clear view screen" [1], a circular window on bearings that spins rapidly to throw off obstructions. You can also heat them to deal with icing. I don't think that I've ever seen a mirror outfitted with one, but cameras are small enough to make them trivially fittable, and the units themselves I'd expect to be surprisingly cheap - armored ten-inch units for CNC enclosures are ~USD1300 even at low volume [2]. I could easily see a configuration that has four or five important cameras covered by spinners and placed so ice can't bridge the panel. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clear_view_screen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clear_view_screen [2] http://visiport.com/pdf/VPO-DEU_Unit-Pricing_PL1601.pdf http://visiport.com/pdf/VPO-DEU_Unit-Pricing_PL1601.pdf
- mfoy_ 9y ago
  Still he has a good point about not being able to open the window to reach out to hand papers / etc... I don't know how it works with "normal" trucks, but won't this mean having to get out of the vehicle to pay tolls, hand license to police, etc?
  - throwaway2016a 9y ago
    I don't know how the rest of the country (and world) is but anecdotally in New England the tolls are almost entirely electronic. Some (most?) exits don't even have manual tolls at all, you have to go to the website and pay within 7 days if you go through one without the transponder. Getting pulled over by an officer should (hopefully) be infrequent enough where getting out of the vehicle is not a big deal. Although, I know police officers get very nervous if you motion to get out of your vehicle (understandably) so some communication is in order.
    - dagw 9y ago
      Getting pulled over by an officer should (hopefully) be infrequent I guess it depends a lot on where your route goes. If it's a harbor, airport or any sort of restricted area, you'll be 'pulled over' every time you enter or leave.
      - throwaway2016a 9y ago
        Very good point. I hadn't thought of that.
    - a2tech 9y ago
      Also trucks have to pull over at weigh stations all the time, and when there are no weigh stations they'll often be pulled over by troopers to check their weight.
      - tombrossman 9y ago
        Getting pulled over by a trooper is rare, even if you are speeding (unless it's flagrant). It does happen but they tend to focus on cars and I think this is because the ticketing and inspection is easier for them. I've had to get out of the truck and help them find the trailer registration documents in the nose box for example, and I could tell they were a little embarrassed by this. Weigh stations are simple, you just idle slowly over the scale plate(s) and there is an illuminated sign board ahead telling you to go, stop, or pull around for inspection. New Mexico is the only state I encountered where you actually rolled up to a trooper in a window up at your eye level and had to interact with them, but this was just to hold up a copy of your permit and they waved you through. You didn't have to speak.
- prklmn 9y ago
  Are you comparing a semi truck driven at 70 mph in between two lanes of traffic to a piece of farm equipment that maxes out at 15mph and is typically driven without another vehicle in sight?
  - bryanlarsen 9y ago
    His objections are about low speed manoeuvring: backing up, navigating a yard, handing over papers, et cetera.
    - prklmn 9y ago
      "Furthermore, I can't see around trucks in front of me without pulling halfway into another lane."
      - bryanlarsen 9y ago
        Elon claimed in his speech that is was easier to see all 4 corners in his semi than competitors, so it's obviously something they're thinking about.
        MBCook 9y ago
        Honda thought t was a good idea to replace volume knobs with capacitive touch strips. People hated it so much they’ve had to add the knobs back. A car maker ‘thinking about something’ doesn’t mean the solution will be good. There are tons of infotainment systems to serve as counterexamples. And let’s not forget GM’s ‘easier’ gear shift that caused people to get run over because you couldn’t tell if it was in park.
        TylerH 9y ago
        Skepticism is always warranted for new things, but also remember this is the guy who made EVs viable and cool and luxurious, as well as they guy who made reusable rockets a thing, to put it mildly. Elon Musk has a brilliant mind for solving engineering problems that others think are too daunting to even approach. "Seeing around corners" is something fairly simple, especially when you consider Tesla vehicles have myriad sensors for detecting objects/vehicles on the road, even through other vehicles. Teslas can stop when the car ahead of them stops--surely they can provide a driver with a (near) real-time view of where cars are in another lane, ahead and behind the vehicle.
- bpicolo 9y ago
  Could do mirrors that can retract electronically.
- conductr 9y ago
  Was it stated that there would be no mirrors? It's common for concept/renderings of autos be mirrorless because it looks nice. The mirrors always get introduced at a later stage. Even the new roadster renderings have no mirrors, but surely the will at production. https://www.tesla.com/roadster/ https://www.tesla.com/roadster/
thisisit 9y ago
A mini rant on this site - I just got uMatrix installed and the amount of scripts on this page is overwhelming. In spite of enabling most CDN related stuff, the article doesn't show up. Used the "reading mode" and somehow the article shows up.
- foepys 9y ago
  > I just got uMatrix installed Sometimes you need to reload the site without cache with Ctrl+Shift+R. uMatrix can be a bit finicky.
xHopen 9y ago
Says a horse rider about a car
- martinko 9y ago
  I think he has some constructive points, don't know if I would really label him a Luddite...
  - xHopen 9y ago
    How many years till will won't need drivers? Tesla should just kill driving and go fully autopilot, it's insane that a human has to drive a truck from point A to B, is just a waste of time and extremely dangerous.
    - MBCook 9y ago
      You want to trust an 80k lbs semi in driving rain and sleet on a frozen mountain pass? There are tons of conditions that even the best autonomous systems are no where near ready for. It’s going to be a while.
      - xHopen 9y ago
        Yes I trust more computer calculations than humans, way more. It will take a while, but It will happen. Anyway, I think there will be better ways to transport than trucks and cars.
        gaius 9y ago
        Yes I trust more computer calculations than humans, way more So you're saying you trust code written by humans way more than humans? That doesn't make any sense.
        xHopen 9y ago
        As a developer I was about to give you an elaborated reply but I'm gonna simplify it. Do you trust more your calculator when you have to perform simple operations like sums , multiplication or square root , or you trust your self with a paper and pen more? The calculator is a board with written code by humans. Then please, do you think Space X does all their calculations by hand or base on computer simulations using well known and tested algorithms
empath75 9y ago
A lot of those problems seem to revolve around line of sight issues, which won’t matter because the thing will be loaded with sensors. And one additional thought: When evaluating a potentially disruptive technology, the opinion of veterans is important and may indicate that they won’t ever adopt the new technology in massive numbers. However veterans by definition have a lot of hard earned experience, which means they won’t see the benefits of automation and ai assistance, while people new to the field will have the benefit of not having to gain that experience to be productive. Which means that the old tech will age out as veterans retire.
- Cuuugi 9y ago
  Sensors are absolutely nice to have, but depending on them is a completely different story.
  - malnourish 9y ago
    We absolutely depend on sensors for many things, e.g. airplanes. Why not here?
    - codingdave 9y ago
      We absolutely do NOT depend on sensors when backing up airplanes. We have human beings walking the plane out, with those funny lights held up to let the pilot know if they are clear or not. Even in cars with rear-view cameras, you still need to check what is going on in the area outside of the camera view. Yes, sensors help, and I'm glad we have them. But I don't trust the safety of myself or those around me to those sensors. I double-check.
      - malnourish 9y ago
        Fair enough, I was thinking solely in flight, but I stand corrected. Thanks
    - Cuuugi 9y ago
      That's a pretty false equivalency in my opinion. Airplanes can still "operate" without some of the sensors, and have a much higher maintenance standard. As the other comment suggested, Tesla doesn't have the greatest track record with these sensors, and putting 16.5 ton driving force behind that could have very lethal consequences. I just wish Tesla was held to a higher standard of scrutiny.
jdc0589 9y ago
I'm curious how stuff like a rear view camera is going to work since it seems even more essential now given the seating position. Do truckers now have to install/re-install a camera on trailers when they pick them up? Is it wireless, so that means batteries?
jeddawson 9y ago
A bit of background: I've done thousands of hours of driving in rolloff trucks. They're semi's that load debris containers onto rails mounted over the chassis, haul the load to the transfer station/landfill, and deliver containers to job sites. Now I write software for the industry that I used to labor in. I completely sympathize with the concerns in the article, but I have faith that Tesla will be able to overcome the challenges and some of them are perhaps not looking at the trucking industry "of the future" here's a good example: The concern about a roll down window isn't that big of a deal. Doing rolloff meant crossing a scale multiple times per day where you'd exchange paperwork with the scale house attendant. I just completed a project that will keep drivers in the cab while at a landfill/transfer station if they have a tablet and the site is connected with our scale software. All of the interaction is done on a tablet while the truck is on the scale, the driver never leaves their seat or rolls down a window. If we're doing stuff like this for garbage, surely other trucking is going to be be digitizing these types of interactions and there are some nice big screens in the truck to make it easy. The biggest concern that I share is the passing issue with a center seat, but that should be easily solved with a camera that shows a forward view when a turn signal is engaged. Two big screens mean you'd get a forward and all the blind spot views necessary to make a safe pass. Side note: If Tesla wants to make a version for hauling trash, they could have an enormous impact on local emissions.
- tmzt 9y ago
  What's stopping a tractor/trailer from weighing itself, if a large manufacture r was to pay a very large bond to ensure that spot checks were valid? I was suprised to see there are 13,000+ freight brokers in operation. Where's the Uber?
- greglindahl 9y ago
  There's a company that builds electric drivetrain conversions for garbage trucks: https://electrek.co/2017/06/14/all-electric-garbage-truck-california/ https://electrek.co/2017/06/14/all-electric-garbage-truck-ca...

71 points by ranit 9y ago

Re: central seating position. Try driving a combine harvester or an agricultural tractor pulling a long train of equipment. They can be heavier, longer, and/or wider than a semi. They use a high central seating position for a reason. Re: mirrors. They're not there for aerodynamic reasons. The semi has a lot of cameras, so you'll have to use the screens. Sometimes a mirror or sticking your head out the window might be preferable, but it's a reasonable substitute. Re: night mode. It'd be nice if they used OLED screens with a dark theme so you can really crank down the brightness and black is completely black. Still time to change that if it isn't, so hopefully somebody from Tesla is reading this and/or advocating for it.

jsight 9y ago
I was thinking the same thing about the mirrors. Physical mirrors have their own limitations (poor in low light, poor when there is a badly placed bright light due to glare, etc), its just that we are used to dealing with them. Tesla's implementation may turn out to be better than that. Of course, it is also possible that Tesla's implementation may turn out to be worse, and his article was phrased as a list of questions that he would like to resolve in a test drive.
- bryanlarsen 9y ago
  A camera is preferable in some situations, mirrors and sticking your head out the window in others. Why can't we have both and use the best as the situation demands?
falcolas 9y ago
> Try driving a combine harvester or an agricultural tractor pulling a long train of equipment. Those are not typically driving on roads though. The seated position next to the center line means you don't have to pull as far into the other lane to see oncoming traffic. Semis pass too. WRT mirrors: no matter the high tech solution, having a manual backup is a prudent precaution. A mirror is harder to take out with a single splash of mud. It will also ease the transition between driving normal rigs to driving the Tesla rigs. Drivers working within their comfort zone is important when they're running for 10 hours at a time. [EDIT] Wrote this before reading the article; frankly, the author does a much better job explaining why so many mirrors are a bonus (it's not just behind the truck that matters), and covers the central seating explanation much better. Short of being a trucker, I'm not sure how we can contradict his comments.
- tombrossman 9y ago
  > A mirror is harder to take out with a single splash of mud. Never mind mud, what about the ice? I drove trucks for a while and the entire front of my truck was routinely coated with snow, slush, and ice. If it was heavy enough I'd have to pull over and tap at it with a 'tire thumper' to knock huge chunks off periodically. Keeping the windshield clear was a constant battle. I wonder what kind of camera or sensor could be used that wouldn't ice up. Traditional mirrors have heating and most are enclosed in a front-facing housing. They get really hard to see out of too, because the salt and sand spray kicked up by the vehicle in front of you sticks to the heated glass of the mirror and collects there. Visibility in winter driving is a difficult problem but perhaps that can be improved.
  - saulrh 9y ago
    I'd expect cameras to be easier to keep clear in extreme circumstances, actually. The key is the "clear view screen" [1], a circular window on bearings that spins rapidly to throw off obstructions. You can also heat them to deal with icing. I don't think that I've ever seen a mirror outfitted with one, but cameras are small enough to make them trivially fittable, and the units themselves I'd expect to be surprisingly cheap - armored ten-inch units for CNC enclosures are ~USD1300 even at low volume [2]. I could easily see a configuration that has four or five important cameras covered by spinners and placed so ice can't bridge the panel. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clear_view_screen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clear_view_screen [2] http://visiport.com/pdf/VPO-DEU_Unit-Pricing_PL1601.pdf http://visiport.com/pdf/VPO-DEU_Unit-Pricing_PL1601.pdf
mfoy_ 9y ago
Still he has a good point about not being able to open the window to reach out to hand papers / etc... I don't know how it works with "normal" trucks, but won't this mean having to get out of the vehicle to pay tolls, hand license to police, etc?
- throwaway2016a 9y ago
  I don't know how the rest of the country (and world) is but anecdotally in New England the tolls are almost entirely electronic. Some (most?) exits don't even have manual tolls at all, you have to go to the website and pay within 7 days if you go through one without the transponder. Getting pulled over by an officer should (hopefully) be infrequent enough where getting out of the vehicle is not a big deal. Although, I know police officers get very nervous if you motion to get out of your vehicle (understandably) so some communication is in order.
  - dagw 9y ago
    Getting pulled over by an officer should (hopefully) be infrequent I guess it depends a lot on where your route goes. If it's a harbor, airport or any sort of restricted area, you'll be 'pulled over' every time you enter or leave.
    - throwaway2016a 9y ago
      Very good point. I hadn't thought of that.
  - a2tech 9y ago
    Also trucks have to pull over at weigh stations all the time, and when there are no weigh stations they'll often be pulled over by troopers to check their weight.
    - tombrossman 9y ago
      Getting pulled over by a trooper is rare, even if you are speeding (unless it's flagrant). It does happen but they tend to focus on cars and I think this is because the ticketing and inspection is easier for them. I've had to get out of the truck and help them find the trailer registration documents in the nose box for example, and I could tell they were a little embarrassed by this. Weigh stations are simple, you just idle slowly over the scale plate(s) and there is an illuminated sign board ahead telling you to go, stop, or pull around for inspection. New Mexico is the only state I encountered where you actually rolled up to a trooper in a window up at your eye level and had to interact with them, but this was just to hold up a copy of your permit and they waved you through. You didn't have to speak.
prklmn 9y ago
Are you comparing a semi truck driven at 70 mph in between two lanes of traffic to a piece of farm equipment that maxes out at 15mph and is typically driven without another vehicle in sight?
- bryanlarsen 9y ago
  His objections are about low speed manoeuvring: backing up, navigating a yard, handing over papers, et cetera.
  - prklmn 9y ago
    "Furthermore, I can't see around trucks in front of me without pulling halfway into another lane."
    - bryanlarsen 9y ago
      Elon claimed in his speech that is was easier to see all 4 corners in his semi than competitors, so it's obviously something they're thinking about.
      - MBCook 9y ago
        Honda thought t was a good idea to replace volume knobs with capacitive touch strips. People hated it so much they’ve had to add the knobs back. A car maker ‘thinking about something’ doesn’t mean the solution will be good. There are tons of infotainment systems to serve as counterexamples. And let’s not forget GM’s ‘easier’ gear shift that caused people to get run over because you couldn’t tell if it was in park.
        TylerH 9y ago
        Skepticism is always warranted for new things, but also remember this is the guy who made EVs viable and cool and luxurious, as well as they guy who made reusable rockets a thing, to put it mildly. Elon Musk has a brilliant mind for solving engineering problems that others think are too daunting to even approach. "Seeing around corners" is something fairly simple, especially when you consider Tesla vehicles have myriad sensors for detecting objects/vehicles on the road, even through other vehicles. Teslas can stop when the car ahead of them stops--surely they can provide a driver with a (near) real-time view of where cars are in another lane, ahead and behind the vehicle.
bpicolo 9y ago
Could do mirrors that can retract electronically.
conductr 9y ago
Was it stated that there would be no mirrors? It's common for concept/renderings of autos be mirrorless because it looks nice. The mirrors always get introduced at a later stage. Even the new roadster renderings have no mirrors, but surely the will at production. https://www.tesla.com/roadster/ https://www.tesla.com/roadster/

thisisit 9y ago

A mini rant on this site - I just got uMatrix installed and the amount of scripts on this page is overwhelming. In spite of enabling most CDN related stuff, the article doesn't show up. Used the "reading mode" and somehow the article shows up.

foepys 9y ago
> I just got uMatrix installed Sometimes you need to reload the site without cache with Ctrl+Shift+R. uMatrix can be a bit finicky.

xHopen 9y ago

Says a horse rider about a car

martinko 9y ago
I think he has some constructive points, don't know if I would really label him a Luddite...
- xHopen 9y ago
  How many years till will won't need drivers? Tesla should just kill driving and go fully autopilot, it's insane that a human has to drive a truck from point A to B, is just a waste of time and extremely dangerous.
  - MBCook 9y ago
    You want to trust an 80k lbs semi in driving rain and sleet on a frozen mountain pass? There are tons of conditions that even the best autonomous systems are no where near ready for. It’s going to be a while.
    - xHopen 9y ago
      Yes I trust more computer calculations than humans, way more. It will take a while, but It will happen. Anyway, I think there will be better ways to transport than trucks and cars.
      - gaius 9y ago
        Yes I trust more computer calculations than humans, way more So you're saying you trust code written by humans way more than humans? That doesn't make any sense.
        xHopen 9y ago
        As a developer I was about to give you an elaborated reply but I'm gonna simplify it. Do you trust more your calculator when you have to perform simple operations like sums , multiplication or square root , or you trust your self with a paper and pen more? The calculator is a board with written code by humans. Then please, do you think Space X does all their calculations by hand or base on computer simulations using well known and tested algorithms

empath75 9y ago

A lot of those problems seem to revolve around line of sight issues, which won’t matter because the thing will be loaded with sensors. And one additional thought: When evaluating a potentially disruptive technology, the opinion of veterans is important and may indicate that they won’t ever adopt the new technology in massive numbers. However veterans by definition have a lot of hard earned experience, which means they won’t see the benefits of automation and ai assistance, while people new to the field will have the benefit of not having to gain that experience to be productive. Which means that the old tech will age out as veterans retire.

Cuuugi 9y ago
Sensors are absolutely nice to have, but depending on them is a completely different story.
- malnourish 9y ago
  We absolutely depend on sensors for many things, e.g. airplanes. Why not here?
  - codingdave 9y ago
    We absolutely do NOT depend on sensors when backing up airplanes. We have human beings walking the plane out, with those funny lights held up to let the pilot know if they are clear or not. Even in cars with rear-view cameras, you still need to check what is going on in the area outside of the camera view. Yes, sensors help, and I'm glad we have them. But I don't trust the safety of myself or those around me to those sensors. I double-check.
    - malnourish 9y ago
      Fair enough, I was thinking solely in flight, but I stand corrected. Thanks
  - Cuuugi 9y ago
    That's a pretty false equivalency in my opinion. Airplanes can still "operate" without some of the sensors, and have a much higher maintenance standard. As the other comment suggested, Tesla doesn't have the greatest track record with these sensors, and putting 16.5 ton driving force behind that could have very lethal consequences. I just wish Tesla was held to a higher standard of scrutiny.

jdc0589 9y ago

I'm curious how stuff like a rear view camera is going to work since it seems even more essential now given the seating position. Do truckers now have to install/re-install a camera on trailers when they pick them up? Is it wireless, so that means batteries?

jeddawson 9y ago

A bit of background: I've done thousands of hours of driving in rolloff trucks. They're semi's that load debris containers onto rails mounted over the chassis, haul the load to the transfer station/landfill, and deliver containers to job sites. Now I write software for the industry that I used to labor in. I completely sympathize with the concerns in the article, but I have faith that Tesla will be able to overcome the challenges and some of them are perhaps not looking at the trucking industry "of the future" here's a good example: The concern about a roll down window isn't that big of a deal. Doing rolloff meant crossing a scale multiple times per day where you'd exchange paperwork with the scale house attendant. I just completed a project that will keep drivers in the cab while at a landfill/transfer station if they have a tablet and the site is connected with our scale software. All of the interaction is done on a tablet while the truck is on the scale, the driver never leaves their seat or rolls down a window. If we're doing stuff like this for garbage, surely other trucking is going to be be digitizing these types of interactions and there are some nice big screens in the truck to make it easy. The biggest concern that I share is the passing issue with a center seat, but that should be easily solved with a camera that shows a forward view when a turn signal is engaged. Two big screens mean you'd get a forward and all the blind spot views necessary to make a safe pass. Side note: If Tesla wants to make a version for hauling trash, they could have an enormous impact on local emissions.

tmzt 9y ago
What's stopping a tractor/trailer from weighing itself, if a large manufacture r was to pay a very large bond to ensure that spot checks were valid? I was suprised to see there are 13,000+ freight brokers in operation. Where's the Uber?
greglindahl 9y ago
There's a company that builds electric drivetrain conversions for garbage trucks: https://electrek.co/2017/06/14/all-electric-garbage-truck-california/ https://electrek.co/2017/06/14/all-electric-garbage-truck-ca...