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Honest question: why is it a problem that Facebook has personal data and uses it in their advertising platform? No one is forced to give their data to Facebook

Honest question: why is it a problem that Facebook has personal data and uses it in their advertising platform? No one is forced to give their data to Facebook. It's not a public utility. It's an entertainment site, first and foremost.

conanbatt 9y ago
I do see a problem that I dont know what data facebook has about me and how they are using it. If we consider that data to be part of your identity, there is no reason for facebook to have the exclusive access to it. I want it myself. By having it myself, I have the technical capacity to cut the middleman, which is better for me and for the advertisers that target me.
- icebraining 9y ago
  Supposedly you can download it[1], or ask for it if you don't have an account[2]. (This is not a defense of FB, only trying to be useful) [1] https://www.facebook.com/help/131112897028467/ https://www.facebook.com/help/131112897028467/ [2] https://www.facebook.com/help/contact/180237885820953 https://www.facebook.com/help/contact/180237885820953
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - rebeccaskinner 9y ago
    I tried several times to do that in the months leading up to finally deactivating my FB account and never received any of my own data, nor any acknowledgement of my requests to have my data deleted.
    - icebraining 9y ago
      If you're an EU citizen, please consider sending a complaint to your national privacy commission or equivalent.
  - conanbatt 9y ago
    Good tip! I will check it out right now. I suspect tho, that this information will not cover all the bases. Mainly, any piece of information facebook ever shared with a third party source should be included. The above statement has a high reach: information fb uses to then deduce something for advertisers has to be included. It doesnt work immediately, so I will have to wait analyze what they share. Its certainly good that they do. EDIT: just looked at the docs and it is better than I thought but might not be probably enough to get the effect I want to achieve. ITs revelatory that it contains all the chats I ever had, and would find that hard to share with anyone, yet, clearly FB has it .
wybiral 9y ago
> It's an entertainment site, first and foremost. Is it? I've always seen it pitched as a communication service with emphasis on staying in touch with friends and always being connected with loved ones.
Swizec 9y ago
No one is forced to own a bank account. Banks are not a public utility. They’re just a handy tool, first and foremost. Why should they be regulated? Because the more ubiquitous a service becomes, the more it is ingrained in everyday life, the harder it is to avoid. And it should be regulated. After all, nobody is forcing you to have and use electricity. So why should power companies be regulated? Or car manufacturers. Or anything really. Because it makes society a better place.
- conanbatt 9y ago
  > After all, nobody is forcing you to have and use electricity. So why should power companies be regulated? It is absolutely possible to have privatized power supply.
  - builditand 9y ago
    Regulated and privatized are not mutually exclusive, some activity can be privatized and regulated in the same time. Edit: to elaborate a little, one shows the ownership form and the other how free of constrains is that activity on the market.
  - Swizec 9y ago
    > It is absolutely possible to have privatized power supply. It is. And power companies should be regulated anyway. For example: to provide current within specific parameters so the white smoke doesn’t escape our devices.
Old_Thrashbarg 9y ago
Being a public utility is not binary. Facebook is not as much a public utility than water, but more or a public utility than just being "an entertainment site". Many social groups use Facebook to organize on. If an individual weren't on Facebook, they'd be much more socially isolated in the same way that if they didn't use a phone (considered a public utility), they'd also be more isolated. I suspect for some people, Facebook/Messenger/Whatsapp is more important than a telephone number. Some services now require Facebook to use their service. For example, for people who can't afford to own a car, GetAround lets you rent neighbors cars, but they don't accept a government issued ID, only Facebook.
- conanbatt 9y ago
  I am not a fan of calling FB a utility. Are you ready to pay the taxes for a 5x buyout of FB when the government attempts to nationalize it? And what do you think its going to happen after the state has reins on it. Only bad things.
  - amelius 9y ago
    > And what do you think its going to happen after the state has reins on it. Only bad things. This meme has to stop. In many countries universities are state-run, and they provide more value than most companies.
    - Zhyl 9y ago
      I don't think it has to _stop_ per se. It's a political opinion and should be treated as such. Whether it is an opinion that has a place on Hackernews is another question.
    - mnx 9y ago
      Sure, some state-run universities are good. But that's just one example. There's many examples of things that govt's fail badly at. And many examples of things they manage OK, sometimes better than the private sector. It's not an closed case either way. I actually would be very worried if the US government were to run Facebook.
dzhiurgis 9y ago
They are network monopoly - it makes no sense to use other site where I have no one to speak with. Same with Google - website optimise for Google and Google ranks them higher. Network effect completely captured the market. Another word for it is 'experience monopoly' - there is no one else that can offer remotely useful to it.
thg 9y ago
> No one is forced to give their data to Facebook. Neither do we have to. Facebook is grabbing it all anyway. With pre-emptive measures ala ad-, cookie and tracker blocking we can reduce the amount of data they get, but they still get something. If they'd only collect data about their users, that would be totally fine. But they don't. They build shadow profiles of people who are not on FB and track them just the same way. FB is a whole lot closer to Orwellian surveillance apparatus than it is to entertainment site.
- wybiral 9y ago
  It's interesting to me how upset so many people got about the level of detail that the NSA collected while so many hand over their entire digital presence to FB and Google. Maybe they think "you don't have to use FB"... By that logic "you didn't have to use AT&T or the internet at all" either.
  - thg 9y ago
    Public opinion is shaped a great deal by what and in what way the mass media covers a specific topic. There was a lot of uproar about NSA surveillance while it was in the news, which quickly died down as the headlines disappeared. Out of sight, out of mind. And then there's also the thing that, arguably, Google and FB give those people something in return which they might consider worthwhile for just data. I'd question that the majority of the user population is aware of the implications of handing over data about themselves and specifically other people, who may or may not be okay with that.
    - wybiral 9y ago
      > Out of sight, out of mind. All the more reason to keep an eye on the people who control the page that so many people view their news from these days.
    - amelius 9y ago
      > Public opinion is shaped a great deal by what and in what way the mass media covers a specific topic. Given that the mass media is in direct competition with FB, I wonder why they haven't destroyed FB already.
xkcdef 9y ago
"No one is forced to give their data to Facebook" With shadow profiles, they are being forced to give their data to Facebook or live like an outcast. How intrusive are the shadow profiles actually? We will know only if their data collection process (as well as the data collection process for all these ad-first companies) is completely and thoroughly investigated.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
mobiletelephone 9y ago
Actually, Yes I am. If I attend an event, my friends and acquaintances will often upload pictures of me. I do not have a Facebook account, but they are known to operate shadow profiles.
- netsharc 9y ago
  I wonder how detailed they are. If a few friends of yours have your name and number in their phone, and they have WhatsApp, Facebook (which owns WhatsApp) already has your name, number and a network of your friends (especially if those WhatsApp users also connected their Facebook account, or entered their WhatsApp ID (their phone number) to their FB profile. And people say Facebook allows companies to upload their customer data to Facebook so they can be targeted through ads on FB, so it would be possible (in theory, not sure about the practice) that Facebook has things like your address and income level as well, for example if you ever filled a marketing survey.
mbrock 9y ago
It is not a universal premise that anything formally voluntary is good and proper. That's more of a libertarian axiom, isn't it? Most people recognize that behaviors that can be seen as voluntary agreements between independent parties can still be problematically imbalanced or in need of "regulation." It's not reasonable to just ignore the power of network operators. How do you think about net neutrality?
- fbonetti 9y ago
  The difference between Facebook and an ISP is that ISPs are, for all intents and purposes, a natural monopoly. There is an enormous cost associated with laying cable and negotiating the rights-of-way with the thousands of affected parcels to make even a tiny local network. It makes sense to enforce net neutrality because it's impossible to switch to a different ISP in many markets, just as it's impossible to switch to a different water provider or sewage system provider. Facebook is a social media website. It doesn't provide a basic, necessary service. It doesn't operate under the physical constraints that utilities do, and it's not impossible to compete with Facebook, as evidenced by the numerous social media services out there like Snapchat, Tumblr, Youtube, Reddit, LinkedIn, Google+, Qzone (China), and Sina Weibo (China). I'm certainly not against regulation as a general concept. The free market does not produce the best, ethical incentives in all cases. That being said, I fail to see why regulating Facebook is even necessary, and what that would look like in practice. People on HN seem to take as a given that Facebook having loads of personal data is somehow a bad or dangerous thing. Why? Facebook has 2 billion users. That's 25% of the human population. 2 billion people voluntarily created profiles, provided details about themselves like their age and relationship status, and uploaded photos of themselves, their friends, and their families. For those 2 billion people, the "cost" of "losing privacy" was worth it to them. Face it, nobody outside of the tiny HN bubble cares about the security of their vacation photos or cat pics, nor should they.
lmm 9y ago
These social networks are becoming de facto public utilities. For example when I was trying to find out why my passport application was late, the only way to ask for an update was via Twitter.

conanbatt 9y ago

I do see a problem that I dont know what data facebook has about me and how they are using it. If we consider that data to be part of your identity, there is no reason for facebook to have the exclusive access to it. I want it myself. By having it myself, I have the technical capacity to cut the middleman, which is better for me and for the advertisers that target me.

icebraining 9y ago
Supposedly you can download it[1], or ask for it if you don't have an account[2]. (This is not a defense of FB, only trying to be useful) [1] https://www.facebook.com/help/131112897028467/ https://www.facebook.com/help/131112897028467/ [2] https://www.facebook.com/help/contact/180237885820953 https://www.facebook.com/help/contact/180237885820953
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- rebeccaskinner 9y ago
  I tried several times to do that in the months leading up to finally deactivating my FB account and never received any of my own data, nor any acknowledgement of my requests to have my data deleted.
  - icebraining 9y ago
    If you're an EU citizen, please consider sending a complaint to your national privacy commission or equivalent.
- conanbatt 9y ago
  Good tip! I will check it out right now. I suspect tho, that this information will not cover all the bases. Mainly, any piece of information facebook ever shared with a third party source should be included. The above statement has a high reach: information fb uses to then deduce something for advertisers has to be included. It doesnt work immediately, so I will have to wait analyze what they share. Its certainly good that they do. EDIT: just looked at the docs and it is better than I thought but might not be probably enough to get the effect I want to achieve. ITs revelatory that it contains all the chats I ever had, and would find that hard to share with anyone, yet, clearly FB has it .

wybiral 9y ago

> It's an entertainment site, first and foremost. Is it? I've always seen it pitched as a communication service with emphasis on staying in touch with friends and always being connected with loved ones.

Swizec 9y ago

No one is forced to own a bank account. Banks are not a public utility. They’re just a handy tool, first and foremost. Why should they be regulated? Because the more ubiquitous a service becomes, the more it is ingrained in everyday life, the harder it is to avoid. And it should be regulated. After all, nobody is forcing you to have and use electricity. So why should power companies be regulated? Or car manufacturers. Or anything really. Because it makes society a better place.

conanbatt 9y ago
> After all, nobody is forcing you to have and use electricity. So why should power companies be regulated? It is absolutely possible to have privatized power supply.
- builditand 9y ago
  Regulated and privatized are not mutually exclusive, some activity can be privatized and regulated in the same time. Edit: to elaborate a little, one shows the ownership form and the other how free of constrains is that activity on the market.
- Swizec 9y ago
  > It is absolutely possible to have privatized power supply. It is. And power companies should be regulated anyway. For example: to provide current within specific parameters so the white smoke doesn’t escape our devices.

Old_Thrashbarg 9y ago

Being a public utility is not binary. Facebook is not as much a public utility than water, but more or a public utility than just being "an entertainment site". Many social groups use Facebook to organize on. If an individual weren't on Facebook, they'd be much more socially isolated in the same way that if they didn't use a phone (considered a public utility), they'd also be more isolated. I suspect for some people, Facebook/Messenger/Whatsapp is more important than a telephone number. Some services now require Facebook to use their service. For example, for people who can't afford to own a car, GetAround lets you rent neighbors cars, but they don't accept a government issued ID, only Facebook.

conanbatt 9y ago
I am not a fan of calling FB a utility. Are you ready to pay the taxes for a 5x buyout of FB when the government attempts to nationalize it? And what do you think its going to happen after the state has reins on it. Only bad things.
- amelius 9y ago
  > And what do you think its going to happen after the state has reins on it. Only bad things. This meme has to stop. In many countries universities are state-run, and they provide more value than most companies.
  - Zhyl 9y ago
    I don't think it has to _stop_ per se. It's a political opinion and should be treated as such. Whether it is an opinion that has a place on Hackernews is another question.
  - mnx 9y ago
    Sure, some state-run universities are good. But that's just one example. There's many examples of things that govt's fail badly at. And many examples of things they manage OK, sometimes better than the private sector. It's not an closed case either way. I actually would be very worried if the US government were to run Facebook.

dzhiurgis 9y ago

They are network monopoly - it makes no sense to use other site where I have no one to speak with. Same with Google - website optimise for Google and Google ranks them higher. Network effect completely captured the market. Another word for it is 'experience monopoly' - there is no one else that can offer remotely useful to it.

thg 9y ago

> No one is forced to give their data to Facebook. Neither do we have to. Facebook is grabbing it all anyway. With pre-emptive measures ala ad-, cookie and tracker blocking we can reduce the amount of data they get, but they still get something. If they'd only collect data about their users, that would be totally fine. But they don't. They build shadow profiles of people who are not on FB and track them just the same way. FB is a whole lot closer to Orwellian surveillance apparatus than it is to entertainment site.

wybiral 9y ago
It's interesting to me how upset so many people got about the level of detail that the NSA collected while so many hand over their entire digital presence to FB and Google. Maybe they think "you don't have to use FB"... By that logic "you didn't have to use AT&T or the internet at all" either.
- thg 9y ago
  Public opinion is shaped a great deal by what and in what way the mass media covers a specific topic. There was a lot of uproar about NSA surveillance while it was in the news, which quickly died down as the headlines disappeared. Out of sight, out of mind. And then there's also the thing that, arguably, Google and FB give those people something in return which they might consider worthwhile for just data. I'd question that the majority of the user population is aware of the implications of handing over data about themselves and specifically other people, who may or may not be okay with that.
  - wybiral 9y ago
    > Out of sight, out of mind. All the more reason to keep an eye on the people who control the page that so many people view their news from these days.
  - amelius 9y ago
    > Public opinion is shaped a great deal by what and in what way the mass media covers a specific topic. Given that the mass media is in direct competition with FB, I wonder why they haven't destroyed FB already.

xkcdef 9y ago

"No one is forced to give their data to Facebook" With shadow profiles, they are being forced to give their data to Facebook or live like an outcast. How intrusive are the shadow profiles actually? We will know only if their data collection process (as well as the data collection process for all these ad-first companies) is completely and thoroughly investigated.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

mobiletelephone 9y ago

Actually, Yes I am. If I attend an event, my friends and acquaintances will often upload pictures of me. I do not have a Facebook account, but they are known to operate shadow profiles.

netsharc 9y ago
I wonder how detailed they are. If a few friends of yours have your name and number in their phone, and they have WhatsApp, Facebook (which owns WhatsApp) already has your name, number and a network of your friends (especially if those WhatsApp users also connected their Facebook account, or entered their WhatsApp ID (their phone number) to their FB profile. And people say Facebook allows companies to upload their customer data to Facebook so they can be targeted through ads on FB, so it would be possible (in theory, not sure about the practice) that Facebook has things like your address and income level as well, for example if you ever filled a marketing survey.

mbrock 9y ago

It is not a universal premise that anything formally voluntary is good and proper. That's more of a libertarian axiom, isn't it? Most people recognize that behaviors that can be seen as voluntary agreements between independent parties can still be problematically imbalanced or in need of "regulation." It's not reasonable to just ignore the power of network operators. How do you think about net neutrality?

fbonetti 9y ago
The difference between Facebook and an ISP is that ISPs are, for all intents and purposes, a natural monopoly. There is an enormous cost associated with laying cable and negotiating the rights-of-way with the thousands of affected parcels to make even a tiny local network. It makes sense to enforce net neutrality because it's impossible to switch to a different ISP in many markets, just as it's impossible to switch to a different water provider or sewage system provider. Facebook is a social media website. It doesn't provide a basic, necessary service. It doesn't operate under the physical constraints that utilities do, and it's not impossible to compete with Facebook, as evidenced by the numerous social media services out there like Snapchat, Tumblr, Youtube, Reddit, LinkedIn, Google+, Qzone (China), and Sina Weibo (China). I'm certainly not against regulation as a general concept. The free market does not produce the best, ethical incentives in all cases. That being said, I fail to see why regulating Facebook is even necessary, and what that would look like in practice. People on HN seem to take as a given that Facebook having loads of personal data is somehow a bad or dangerous thing. Why? Facebook has 2 billion users. That's 25% of the human population. 2 billion people voluntarily created profiles, provided details about themselves like their age and relationship status, and uploaded photos of themselves, their friends, and their families. For those 2 billion people, the "cost" of "losing privacy" was worth it to them. Face it, nobody outside of the tiny HN bubble cares about the security of their vacation photos or cat pics, nor should they.

lmm 9y ago

These social networks are becoming de facto public utilities. For example when I was trying to find out why my passport application was late, the only way to ask for an update was via Twitter.