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Intel will ship processors with integrated AMD graphics and memory
- chx 9y ago>and halves the power usage of a traditional design. Um, really? Rumors talk of a 65W (and a 100W) Kaby Lake G CPU. The CPU is 4C/8T @ 3.1/4.1. That's 10% more than the 7700HQ which is 45W. The GPU side is rumored to be 1000MHz 24CU and 4GB HBM2 @ 700 MHz. Now the Ryzen 5 2500U is a 15W part with 8 CUs up to 1100 MHz. The CPU surely eats some watts out of that so I do not think it's too outlandish to claim 24 CUs eat less than 30W especially with a lower frequency. All in all, I absolutely can't see the claimed gigantic power usage savings Intel purports here. It looks like 10% perhaps 15% based on the above data. What am I missing?
- aeleos 9y agoI understood that statement as saying they were halving the power usage compared to a traditionally designed chip interconnect that uses ordinary traces rather than the EMIB silicon chip talked about in the article. Not halving the power usage of the entire chip, just the power required for the chip connection.
- chx 9y agoBewildering. Does a chip interconnect consume anything worthwhile mentioning? Wouldn't that be converted to heat? I have never heard of the motherboard itself heating up... Edit: yes, the VRM and the chipset itself have beefy heatsinks but not the interconnect between them. https://images.evga.com/products/gallery/131-SX-E295-KR_XL_5.jpg https://images.evga.com/products/gallery/131-SX-E295-KR_XL_5... look at the bazillion traces running on the PCB.
- dbcurtis 9y agoIt is the drivers on the chip required to go off-chip that consume power and create heat. Look at a die photo. Those wee little transistors in the middle? Logic and memory. Those giagantic cow turds around the edge? I/O drivers.
- yvdriess 9y agoThe heat density of off-chip interconnects are low, but that does not mean non-zero power consumption.
- mjw1007 9y agoI expect they mean EMIB halves the amount of power used for communicating between the CPU part and the GPU part.
- spikels 9y agoAnyone understand why Intel would do this? Have they given up on their own GPUs? Is this a response the Nvidia threat?
- jgowdy 9y agoIntel actually announced that they’re going to make their own discrete GPU in addition to selling AMD’s. Both the AMD offering and the Intel discrete offering feature the standard integrated Iris GPU for non-3D gaming (normal desktop graphics).
- visarga 9y ago> Iris GPU When TensorFlow came out I happily downloaded it on my Macbook only to learn that the "Iris GPU" is not supported (apparently there are NVIDIA based Macbooks too which are more expensive). What a bummer. Search and search, there is no solution, because Intel doesn't give a fuck about DL. So now I enjoy seeing them desperate, but it will take a lot to convince me of their dedication.
- yvdriess 9y ago> only to learn that the "Iris GPU" is not supported You can use the CPU backend, which has gotten significant optimization since ~v1.2. You can probably use the integrated GPU with the OpenCL backend, but I am not sure it will be faster than a modern AVX2/3 CPU. > because Intel doesn't give a fuck about DL. Why do you think that? https://www.intelnervana.com/ https://www.intelnervana.com/ https://www.intel.in/content/www/in/en/events/ai-day.html https://www.intel.in/content/www/in/en/events/ai-day.html https://github.com/01org/mkl-dnn https://github.com/01org/mkl-dnn
- Radle 9y agoYes and no. Intel Integrated Graphics was always a graphic solution executed by the CPU. This here solves multiple problems. A) The Computer has a dedicated graphics chip. B) The computer has an incredible high bandwidth between cpu/gpu/main memory. C) The CPU will be capable of utilizing the Special 3dimension graphics memory. Which is patented by AMD. (HBM) This is a way more powerful solution than integrated graphics and thus puts a lot of pressure on Nvidia for laptops and mobile maybe even for office computers.
- eganist 9y agoThe last time this conversation came up, a slew of people called it a strategic mistake for AMD. I'm actually willing to bet it's the opposite (disclosure: I'm long AMD). The last time AMD got into a fight with Intel, Intel pulled out all the stops. The only relief AMD got--quite a ways down the road--was in the form of damages. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Micro_Devices,_Inc._v._Intel_Corp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Micro_Devices,_Inc._v.... Something tells me AMD decided to make strange bedfellows this time around against a common growing threat in multiple spaces, to include graphics as well as machine learning (nVidia). It's one agreement, but for AMD, it's both a revenue source as well as a foot in the door for potential collaborative efforts which could give it some stability as it broadens its offerings and looks at new avenues for value creation in the face of headwinds such as resistance in further transistor shrinkage.
- hdheiej88 9y agoI’ve been wondering if it has to do with ATIs amdgpu opensour e driver work Intel announced new performance graphics parts on the way, they’ll be learning a lot from AMD and seems reasonable to say they’ll be leaning on amdgpu for these parts If they’re quietly teaming up to support an open modern video driver architecture, that would help put pressure on nVidia. While historically the better performer, nVidia drivers can be fickle.
- thomastjeffery 9y agos/ATI/AMD/ ATI has been dead for 7 years, and part of AMD for 11.
- hellbanner 9y agoBut these still come with the Management Engine?
- phkahler 9y agoWhen I slip on my tinfoil hat I wonder if that's the reason for this. There's nothing here that AMD couldn't offer on it's own so why combine their graphics with Intel CPUs if not for the ME?
- eropple 9y ago...because Intel will pay them money, which can be exchanged for goods and services, for letting them do so?
- phkahler 9y agoAny customer who would buy this would probably buy an AMD APU instead and AMD would take home more of the money without giving their competitor anything. AMD also has the capability to produce almost the exact same product using their own processor instead of Intel, so again why help your competitor by sharing the profits? I'd say either AMD doesn't have the production capacity for whomever the customer is (Apple?) or its something more nefarious like preserving ME. Given that AMD is still a close second in graphics, maybe it really is a way to increase volumes for their GPUs. But that still suggests there's some reason they can't deliver the same with their own CPUs.
- subwayclub 9y agoIntel has more of the existing partnerships with OEMs, and that isn't going to reverse immediately with a strong showing from AMD. The new Ryzen Mobile notebooks are low-to-midrange entries and groundbreaking in their category, but Intel still covers that higher end segment. It's easier to see this from Intel's perspective: Intel's biggest threat is from the onrush of GPU-driven computing, and Nvidia is the market leader there. The classic play is to starve them of oxygen by leveraging existing channels to get them out of the gaming notebook market. Thus comes this weird saga with AMD and Raja which is a win win deal in fact: Intel gets ammo to fight Nvidia now and a key hire for their own development later, and AMD gets another source of cashflow and marketshare plus a graceful exit for what has been reported as shaky, conflicted executive management at RTG. Although they've delivered decent hardware and software recently, there have been numerous PR flubs from the group and the business unit performance is questionable overall. There is an open question of what happens to RTG later on, but perhaps the answer is simply to survive in Intel's shadow again.
- foota 9y agoI'm curious to see how these will be priced. They could save on costs over a dedicated gpu by sharing cooling systems and other parts, which would be exciting.
- Jhsto 9y agoCould this have something to do with Apple shipping their own chips with their desktop computers? I would think that Apple would be interested in using those new Intel/AMD chips on their laptops.
- mistahchris 9y agoI had the same thought. Apple seems like a natural big customer for these chips.
- geetfun 9y agoIt definitely looks like a survival move to counter the upcoming AXX Apple chips in the next few years. New iMac Pro apparently has a A10 in it for boot up sequence. Source: https://www.macrumors.com/2017/11/19/imac-pro-a10-chip-hey-siri/ https://www.macrumors.com/2017/11/19/imac-pro-a10-chip-hey-s...
- amaranth 9y agoThe board Intel shows for their example of space savings is from a MacBook Pro so... yeah, this is for Apple.
- analyst_9 9y agoWhy wouldn't they do this? Intel is a fab company, architecture second. The main reason they bought Altera was EMIB. EMIB frees them from spending huge amounts of resources on cutting edge Architecture and Microarch, freeing them to focus on pushing the boundaries on their foundries (which are falling behind). Using EMIB enables Intel to incorporate whatever IP will sell in the market, theirs or somebody else's. The alternative for Intel is to drop their foundries and use GF or TSMC (don't see that happening). I can see Intel using Arm, AMD, Nvidia (if they'll let them, Nvidia seems to be pushing the discrete path hard...that'll fail given high latency of PCIe). Arm has already arrived in the HPC market, SC in Denver's unofficial theme was Arm (both Cavium and Qualcomm). There are even awesome desktop machines now (https://www.avantek.co.uk/store/avantek-32-core-cavium-thunderx-arm-desktop.html https://www.avantek.co.uk/store/avantek-32-core-cavium-thund...). HPC is the vanguard for server, already Arm compatible chips are providing perf greater than Skylake Intel server parts at a cheaper price point...why pay for Intel when you can have a Qualcomm Centriq or Cavium Thunder X2? IBM Power is yet another option, but hugely expensive. Definitely useful for GPGPU accelerated applications, but like Intel, IBM is going to be given a run for its money by AMD in sheer number of PCIe lanes.
- jhalstead 9y agoFor anyone like me who didn't recognize the EMIB acronym: https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/foundry/emib.html https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/foundry/emib.html.
- arcanus 9y ago> SC in Denver's unofficial theme was Arm I don't agree. SC's unofficial theme was AI/ML. Every single vendor and HPC center were talking AI, not all were talking ARM. The student cluster was dominated by GPUs, not a single one ran ARM.
- redshirt 9y agoWe don’t really care about ML. If just so happens ML and AI are easy compared to what HPC normally deals with. ML is just statistics and learning functions which is in turn really dominated by the linear algebra. It’s hard to hear that when you like buzzwords, but it’s just algebra and pretty simple at that. That’s why things like grad student built systolic array processors (popular in he 60’s) dominate here. It’s also why SC is showing lots of ML...because the community knows how to do that better than anybody.
- mfrw 9y agoAnd it starts to make more sense now: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/11/intel-poaches-amds-top-gpu-architect-to-build-its-own-discrete-graphics-chips/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/11/intel-poaches-amds-t...
- IamNotAtWork 9y agoWhat the! There is gotta be some non-compete clause or something.
- masklinn 9y agoNo, there should not, and in California there is not. "You're a GPU specialist, you don't get to quit anymore"? Fuck that, it's insane.
- TazeTSchnitzel 9y agoThis is two weeks ago's news: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15635249 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15635249
- beefsack 9y agoThis article is actually from the 7th. (Thought it was from July for a minute, silly US dates.)
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- phkahler 9y agoThis whole thing looks a lot like AMDs EHP concept from a couple years ago. In fact I've been waiting for the thread ripper/EPYC approach to get a GPU and HBM in the same package with Ryzen. That would be the perfect module to put into the AMD project quantum concept PC. OTOH the Intel solution is targeted at laptops. Let's hope AMD does the same for the desktop and soon.
- gdwatson 9y agoWhat's the gain over discrete GPUs in a desktop, where space and power are not at a premium the way they are in a laptop?
- gmueckl 9y agoOmitting a bottleneck like the PCIe bus between the CPU and GPU makes memory sharing between the two much more viable. This allows a totally different kind of offloading of work from the CPU.
- sdfjkl 9y agoCool. I hope Intel writes the drivers though.
- martin1975 9y agoI'm a huge fanboy of open source, and this move is a boon for Linux given Intel HD's and AMD's GPU OSS drivers on the laptop as well as the desktop. Not to mention it will further emphasize the division of gaming vs non-gaming rigs, meaning NVidia vs AMD(ATI?)/Intel, and hopefully extinguish NVidia completely from business/work-purpose computers (or even gaming rigs if possible, since AMD/ATI's GPUs are rather decent too!). Forgive my severe, palatable dislike for NVidia in this post. Looks like it's time to upgrade my ThinkPad once Lenovo integrates this setup into their T line. Well done, Lisa Su!
- monkmartinez 9y agoI like OSS as well, but (correct me if I am wrong) are AMD GPU's way inferior for ML/Deep learning than that of NVidia? I am moving away from macOS to ThinkPad. I am specifically waiting for an 8th Gen CPU from Intel with NVidia discrete GPU for small scale ML and light gaming.
- arcanus 9y agoThe gap is software. It appears to be getting better: AMD now supports tensorflow on their GPUs, and other frameworks are coming. https://www.anandtech.com/show/12032/amd-announces-wider-epyc-availability-and-rocm-17-with-tensorflow-support https://www.anandtech.com/show/12032/amd-announces-wider-epy...
- mr_toad 9y agoWhat is the size of the ML market compared to the gaming market? I get the impression that the ML market for GPU chips is growing much faster than the gaming market.
- Nexxxeh 9y agoPC gamers have suffered generally because of the cryptocoin boom eating GPU supply and inflating the price. Doesn't really apply directly to the laptop market, people probably aren't buying laptops for mining, but presumably it has some impact.
- qwerty456127 9y agoAre current Intel GPUs really this bad?
- sounds 9y agoYes, they don't have the stability to be used for 9-to-5 work, and they don't have the performance to be used for gaming.
- hishnash 9y agoThe title is not quite true, intel will ship a package that has an AMD GPU+HBM combined with a CPU but they are not the same chip, basically, Intel is buying already fabricated GPU chips from AMD and putting them together with their CPU to sell them as one unit.
- pcr0 9y agoI guess there was more to Raja Koduri's departure to Intel from AMD.
- joosters 9y agoThis seems doubly bizarre, in that high-end Intel processors already tend to have integrated graphics hardware, yet high-end AMD processors don't. For instance, I built a new computer using an AMD Ryzen processor recently (solely for its CPU speed). I hadn't realised that the CPU had no graphics hardware at all, and that I would need a separate graphics card in order to get any output on a monitor. Whereas previous computer builds using i7 CPUs need no extra hardware.
- Synaesthesia 9y agoActually AMD probably make the best integrated graphics, not on their Ryzen CPU, but on many others. Including all the major consoles.
- opencl 9y agoIt seems to largely be a cost issue, since AMD does not exactly have huge amounts of cash to pour into lots of different chips designs for specific purposes like Intel. AMD wanted to release 8 core parts that competed on price with Intel's 4 core parts. Roughly half the die area (and thus manufacturing cost) of Intel's quad core desktop CPUs is the GPU, so by cutting the GPU they were able to make 8 cores at similar cost to Intel's 4 cores + GPU. It also allowed them to reuse the same chip for desktop, workstation, and server parts dramatically reducing R&D costs for the whole lineup. And really "high end" Intel processors, as in everything with 8 cores or more, also lack the GPU anyway. The Raven Ridge CPUs are 4 cores + GPU (with much faster GPU than anything Intel has). I imagine they'll do a higher core count part with GPU once Globalfoundries starts making 7nm chips.