5 ms·

A concern that has been repeated for 5+ years at this point, and one that has proven to be almost completely unsubstantiated by any real world devices. Don't g

A concern that has been repeated for 5+ years at this point, and one that has proven to be almost completely unsubstantiated by any real world devices. Don't get me wrong, the day I can't install Linux on my laptops, I'll grab the pitchforks, but the claims that this is going to happen almost exclusively hinge on some boogeyman ideology related to Microsoft that is fully unconvincing to me. edit: Please, tell me a single consumer laptop that doesn't allow key enrollment or complete Secure Boot disablement, otherwise, please stop with the FUD.

mtgx 9y ago
Wasn't the previous backlash what got Microsoft to allow Verisign and others to make Secure Boot keys, too? Wasn't it originally only Microsoft the one that could do that, and it's why everyone freaked out that they may act their usual monopolistic-self and deny Linux distros the keys?
Nullabillity 9y ago
Look at Microsoft's certification requirements for ARM devices. This will be a problem much sooner than you think...
joe_the_user 9y ago
I may not be especially competent but I had significant difficulty installing Linux the last time tried. Thankfully it was possible but there are now significant hurdles. That's problematic. Whether it gets worse is unknown but the situation now is bad if anyone wants Linux to be freely available.
- colemickens 9y ago
  Can you elaborate on the "significant hurdles"? I've heard this before, but it never comes with any specifics - examples, error messages, forum posts, nothing. If nothing else, if there is seriously a manufacturer that is botching their implementation, please tell the community so that we can avoid them. I've installed Linux on dozens of laptops. Here are the "significant hurdles": 1. Literally none, because mainstream distros are signed and boot under Secure Boot 2. Literally a single toggle in the BIOS to disable SecureBoot. (Enrolling user keys is more steps, but optional) And then since most people really mean "UEFI" or other miscellaneous compatibility problems when they say SecureBoot: 3. Literally a single toggle in the BIOS to enable CSM mode for distros/install media that don't support UEFI. 4. Laptops that ship with the SSD in RAID mode (only very, very new kernels ship with support for it). I've only heard of one laptop that didn't allow it to be toggled and it was fixed within two weeks.
  - joe_the_user 9y ago
    I mucked about the bios quite a bit and had to create a custom boot CD. I'm not super familiar with bios and the five hours I spent might have added up just finding "Literally a single toggle in the BIOS" for all I remember but so what? If you think this isn't a serious impediment to most users, you know less about the average user than I know about bios configuration. Argue "this is the way to do it" all you want. But arguing things into easiness is inherent ridiculous.
  - smichel17 9y ago
    I observed a friend's computer that shipped with no hotkey to access the BIOS settings or boot menu. In order to get into the computer to boot to a usb drive for installing Linux, you had to either accept the Windows license agreement or disassemble the computer and pull the hard drive.
    - digi_owl 9y ago
      The laptop i am tying this on supposedly had a "BIOS" key combo, but i never got it to work. What i had to do was hold a key (shift i believe) while clicking restart in Windows, and then i would get a menu that could take me to the menu...
  - Celarnor 9y ago
    Can't really speak as to issues with single-OS installs. Those usually go alright. The problems I always run into arise when you try to go and install another OS alongside what you've already got (usually Windows, but I have seen the same kinds of UEFI issues with OS X+Linux and OS X+Windows+Linux). With legacy boot, this is relatively easy and goes something like this: 1) Resize existing filesystem, setup new partitions 2) New OS installation 3) Install GRUB over MBR 4) Boot whatever you want. Enjoy your multi-OS computer. Install more operating systems, whatever. GRUB has everything it needs to figure it out and edit /boot accordingly. With UEFI, it goes like this: 1) Resize existing filesystem, setup new partitions 2) New OS installation 3) Install GRUB2 over MBR 4) Realize you can't boot into new OS because of UEFI's "next boot" flag used by Windows 8+'s Fastboot/Fast startup option. 5) Realize you can't get into old OS either because secureboot is still broken for multi-OS environments. 6) Mess around with Windows Recovery Essentials. or an OS X Recovery System. Restore original boot sector with bootrec/Disk Utilities. Disable fast startup in BIOS. 7) Hopefully boot back into windows again. Sometimes the original Windows installation doesn't like the altered UEFI settings and you can't. When that happens I resort to re-installing each OS to separate hard disks, each with other OS' drive disconnected during installation. Then add another disk for GRUB2. Re-do GRUB2 probing/installation. Then... 8) Disable fastboot in windows, cause UEFI is dumb and will let windows turn it back on. Probably mess around in bcdedit. 9) Load linux installation media again. Redo GRUB2 OS probing and installation, unless they're all fresh installs from step 7. 10) Hope everything works right at this point. 11) Wait for updates for your original OS to break everything, permanently lock you into booting just the original OS because of the terrible idea that was nextboot. If everything's on separate drives, you might be able to boot them independently from BIOS, and just have to disable settings again. Or not, because of the same "hey, this is a different computer, I'm not going to boot" type of stuff that can arise in 7. 12) Start again at step 4...
LordKano 9y ago
When that day comes, it'll be too late. You'll be the frog who was slow boiled in the pot.

mtgx 9y ago

Wasn't the previous backlash what got Microsoft to allow Verisign and others to make Secure Boot keys, too? Wasn't it originally only Microsoft the one that could do that, and it's why everyone freaked out that they may act their usual monopolistic-self and deny Linux distros the keys?

Nullabillity 9y ago

Look at Microsoft's certification requirements for ARM devices. This will be a problem much sooner than you think...

joe_the_user 9y ago

I may not be especially competent but I had significant difficulty installing Linux the last time tried. Thankfully it was possible but there are now significant hurdles. That's problematic. Whether it gets worse is unknown but the situation now is bad if anyone wants Linux to be freely available.

colemickens 9y ago
Can you elaborate on the "significant hurdles"? I've heard this before, but it never comes with any specifics - examples, error messages, forum posts, nothing. If nothing else, if there is seriously a manufacturer that is botching their implementation, please tell the community so that we can avoid them. I've installed Linux on dozens of laptops. Here are the "significant hurdles": 1. Literally none, because mainstream distros are signed and boot under Secure Boot 2. Literally a single toggle in the BIOS to disable SecureBoot. (Enrolling user keys is more steps, but optional) And then since most people really mean "UEFI" or other miscellaneous compatibility problems when they say SecureBoot: 3. Literally a single toggle in the BIOS to enable CSM mode for distros/install media that don't support UEFI. 4. Laptops that ship with the SSD in RAID mode (only very, very new kernels ship with support for it). I've only heard of one laptop that didn't allow it to be toggled and it was fixed within two weeks.
- joe_the_user 9y ago
  I mucked about the bios quite a bit and had to create a custom boot CD. I'm not super familiar with bios and the five hours I spent might have added up just finding "Literally a single toggle in the BIOS" for all I remember but so what? If you think this isn't a serious impediment to most users, you know less about the average user than I know about bios configuration. Argue "this is the way to do it" all you want. But arguing things into easiness is inherent ridiculous.
- smichel17 9y ago
  I observed a friend's computer that shipped with no hotkey to access the BIOS settings or boot menu. In order to get into the computer to boot to a usb drive for installing Linux, you had to either accept the Windows license agreement or disassemble the computer and pull the hard drive.
  - digi_owl 9y ago
    The laptop i am tying this on supposedly had a "BIOS" key combo, but i never got it to work. What i had to do was hold a key (shift i believe) while clicking restart in Windows, and then i would get a menu that could take me to the menu...
- Celarnor 9y ago
  Can't really speak as to issues with single-OS installs. Those usually go alright. The problems I always run into arise when you try to go and install another OS alongside what you've already got (usually Windows, but I have seen the same kinds of UEFI issues with OS X+Linux and OS X+Windows+Linux). With legacy boot, this is relatively easy and goes something like this: 1) Resize existing filesystem, setup new partitions 2) New OS installation 3) Install GRUB over MBR 4) Boot whatever you want. Enjoy your multi-OS computer. Install more operating systems, whatever. GRUB has everything it needs to figure it out and edit /boot accordingly. With UEFI, it goes like this: 1) Resize existing filesystem, setup new partitions 2) New OS installation 3) Install GRUB2 over MBR 4) Realize you can't boot into new OS because of UEFI's "next boot" flag used by Windows 8+'s Fastboot/Fast startup option. 5) Realize you can't get into old OS either because secureboot is still broken for multi-OS environments. 6) Mess around with Windows Recovery Essentials. or an OS X Recovery System. Restore original boot sector with bootrec/Disk Utilities. Disable fast startup in BIOS. 7) Hopefully boot back into windows again. Sometimes the original Windows installation doesn't like the altered UEFI settings and you can't. When that happens I resort to re-installing each OS to separate hard disks, each with other OS' drive disconnected during installation. Then add another disk for GRUB2. Re-do GRUB2 probing/installation. Then... 8) Disable fastboot in windows, cause UEFI is dumb and will let windows turn it back on. Probably mess around in bcdedit. 9) Load linux installation media again. Redo GRUB2 OS probing and installation, unless they're all fresh installs from step 7. 10) Hope everything works right at this point. 11) Wait for updates for your original OS to break everything, permanently lock you into booting just the original OS because of the terrible idea that was nextboot. If everything's on separate drives, you might be able to boot them independently from BIOS, and just have to disable settings again. Or not, because of the same "hey, this is a different computer, I'm not going to boot" type of stuff that can arise in 7. 12) Start again at step 4...

LordKano 9y ago

When that day comes, it'll be too late. You'll be the frog who was slow boiled in the pot.