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"Ageism seems largely concentrated on the Silicon-Valley style society." I saw ageism many years ago at a big aerospace firm in the L.A. area. It was understoo

"Ageism seems largely concentrated on the Silicon-Valley style society." I saw ageism many years ago at a big aerospace firm in the L.A. area. It was understood and even outspoken that young engineers would get the call to work extra hours and weekends if needed, as well as the occasional graveyard shift when a unit was in thermovac testing. Older engineers were not usually called upon become they had "paid their dues" as young engineers. Colleagues at other big aerospace firms said is was pretty much the same for them. Ageism for sure, in hardware development, and not in Silicon Valley.

zaarn 9y ago
And I'm sure the older engineers will be more likely to be called upon when the situation demands experience, no? I fail to see the harm in "discriminating" a bit against the younger engineers by having them collect more experience.
- geomark 9y ago
  Having done my share of babysitting units through thermovac I can say with some authority that the main experience is in personally observing the effects of sleep deprivation and mind-numbing boredom.
throwanem 9y ago
That's not ageism; that's a gentle form of hazing, and to be found in almost any profession or trade. An extreme example is what medical students go through in the early years of their study; a mild example is how, when I worked nominally as a cashier in a grocery store as a high school kid, the more experienced folks ran me from pillar to post for my first couple weeks' worth of shifts, doing everything from stocking to bagging and hauling to breaking down boxes and cleaning up spills, including one especially memorable spray of vomit from a kid who'd eaten too much of the extremely wrong thing. The point is to find out whether you're game, and whether you'll work hard when you need to. These are important traits in the makeup of a worthwhile colleague, and those who would invest considerable of their own time and effort in mentoring you want to make sure they won't be wasted. This is how that's done. And, yeah, it's a pain in the ass for a while. But once you've proven that, as it was once put to me, "you ain't no scrub", that's an end to it.
- watwut 9y ago
  Nah, as the older engineer, I can say with conviction that it is simply taking advantage of younger colleagues. Older engineer is using his connections, status in group or friendship with decision makers to avoid uncomfortable shift. There is no other point. Occasions to find out whether you work hard tend to arise naturally, without putting all weekends on younger colleagues. Also, while mentoring is important part of seniors work, it is not "own time and effort". It is paid on the clock time and effort. I am not mentoring overtime for sure. Hazing is not rational. Its main benefit is that incumbents feel good about power trip they are allowed to do. Plus a bit of good feeling after someone else has to go through uncomfortable thing you yourself was through in the past. Nothing more, nothing less.
  - throwanem 9y ago
    Paid time and effort that could be better spent than on mentoring someone who'll make no good use of the knowledge you're trying to impart, then. Part of learning your craft is learning how not to get owned, too.
    - watwut 9y ago
      What does someone not using knowledge have to do with younger employees having to do all the weekends due to hazing and "unspoken rules"? Anyway, if you are not willing to explain, then your senior salary is deathweight to company. Another part of learning craft is to recognize when someone else is being owned. It is a bit harder.
      - throwanem 9y ago
        One wonders whether a senior engineer who does so recognize has put a word in the ears of the juniors involved, if he feels they are indeed so hardly used.
jimbokun 9y ago
"Older engineers were not usually called upon become they had "paid their dues" as young engineers." Old engineers were not usually called upon because they just said "no" when asked, so management quickly learned to ask the young engineers who said "yes" instead.

zaarn 9y ago

And I'm sure the older engineers will be more likely to be called upon when the situation demands experience, no? I fail to see the harm in "discriminating" a bit against the younger engineers by having them collect more experience.

geomark 9y ago
Having done my share of babysitting units through thermovac I can say with some authority that the main experience is in personally observing the effects of sleep deprivation and mind-numbing boredom.

throwanem 9y ago

That's not ageism; that's a gentle form of hazing, and to be found in almost any profession or trade. An extreme example is what medical students go through in the early years of their study; a mild example is how, when I worked nominally as a cashier in a grocery store as a high school kid, the more experienced folks ran me from pillar to post for my first couple weeks' worth of shifts, doing everything from stocking to bagging and hauling to breaking down boxes and cleaning up spills, including one especially memorable spray of vomit from a kid who'd eaten too much of the extremely wrong thing. The point is to find out whether you're game, and whether you'll work hard when you need to. These are important traits in the makeup of a worthwhile colleague, and those who would invest considerable of their own time and effort in mentoring you want to make sure they won't be wasted. This is how that's done. And, yeah, it's a pain in the ass for a while. But once you've proven that, as it was once put to me, "you ain't no scrub", that's an end to it.

watwut 9y ago
Nah, as the older engineer, I can say with conviction that it is simply taking advantage of younger colleagues. Older engineer is using his connections, status in group or friendship with decision makers to avoid uncomfortable shift. There is no other point. Occasions to find out whether you work hard tend to arise naturally, without putting all weekends on younger colleagues. Also, while mentoring is important part of seniors work, it is not "own time and effort". It is paid on the clock time and effort. I am not mentoring overtime for sure. Hazing is not rational. Its main benefit is that incumbents feel good about power trip they are allowed to do. Plus a bit of good feeling after someone else has to go through uncomfortable thing you yourself was through in the past. Nothing more, nothing less.
- throwanem 9y ago
  Paid time and effort that could be better spent than on mentoring someone who'll make no good use of the knowledge you're trying to impart, then. Part of learning your craft is learning how not to get owned, too.
  - watwut 9y ago
    What does someone not using knowledge have to do with younger employees having to do all the weekends due to hazing and "unspoken rules"? Anyway, if you are not willing to explain, then your senior salary is deathweight to company. Another part of learning craft is to recognize when someone else is being owned. It is a bit harder.
    - throwanem 9y ago
      One wonders whether a senior engineer who does so recognize has put a word in the ears of the juniors involved, if he feels they are indeed so hardly used.

jimbokun 9y ago

"Older engineers were not usually called upon become they had "paid their dues" as young engineers." Old engineers were not usually called upon because they just said "no" when asked, so management quickly learned to ask the young engineers who said "yes" instead.