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> Limited to stopping pedophilia, piracy, nazis... Those are bridgeheads. I don't know if I buy this slippery slope argument. Nazi memorabilia and glorificatio

> Limited to stopping pedophilia, piracy, nazis... Those are bridgeheads. I don't know if I buy this slippery slope argument. Nazi memorabilia and glorification have been banned in France and Germany for more than 70 years now, and these countries have not yet descended into fascism and further impeding of free speech and other points that we usually hear from offended Americans who learn about this.

atmosx 9y ago
Not yet, but if something doesn't change dramatically in the EU the countries you mentioned are on their way extremism (AfD, LePen)
- seszett 9y ago
  Are you arguing that banning Nazi memorabilia is leading to the rise of far-right parties? I think these two things are completely disconnected from each other. What we're talking about here is legislation, and legislation has not slipped towards censoring free speech more and more in the last seventy years (in France and Germany).
  - atmosx 9y ago
    > Are you arguing that banning Nazi memorabilia is leading to the rise of far-right parties? No I'm not. Your statement is so far off that I can't help myself but wonder how did you arrive to this conclusion?!
    - seszett 9y ago
      Because if those things are disconnected, then your own comment was apparently off-topic. You posted a comment about the rise of far-right parties as an answer to one about the slippery slope of censorship.
- zaarn 9y ago
  The AfD has no real power in Germany. They may have swayed a few votes but in one or two legislation periods their voter base will have been quietly absorbed into the establishment (CDU and SPD) or the opposition (Greens, The Left) or the parties nobody likes (FDP). Basically none of the other parties in the government want to even consider cooperating with them, it'll fizzle out soon enough.
  - majewsky 9y ago
    It's cute how you classify the Greens as opposition, and how you describe a party that just got 10.75% of the national vote two months ago as being liked by nobody.
    - zaarn 9y ago
      The greens always oppose anything sane, hence opposition. I haven't yet anybody who likes the FDP, hence nobody likes them. But I'm Bavarian so I might have a huge sampling bias thanks to us being 60%+ on the CSU.
      - majewsky 9y ago
        I haven't met anybody who likes the FDP either, but I'm conscious of that resulting from my social circle (which is heavily left-leaning). The poll results beat a single person's anecdata everytime.
  - vixen99 9y ago
    Is becoming the third largest party in Germany after the 2017 federal election and getting 94 seats in the Bundestag suggestive of fizzling out? In the Netherlands, no one wants to cooperate with Wilders' Party either but in the recent election it became the second-largest party in the House of Representatives. 'Forget about it, they'll go away' is maybe the triumph of hope over experience.
    - zaarn 9y ago
      I see them being this big as positive in that it forces the remaining parties to finally figure out how to properly cooperate, as the CDU/SPD is a very unlikely coalition considering the last legislation period. The current Jamaika Coalition has basically put everyone in panic because for the first time in forever the major parties can't just vote what they want into parliament via coalition contracts. The AfD will be reabsorbed, don't worry about that, that's how it has worked the last couple decades. And in the meanwhile they can exert some healthy pressure on the rest of the Bundestag to get a bit of fresh air in there.
dalbasal 9y ago
That's kind of a straw man, I feel. At least, somewhat unfair. I didn't imply descent into fascism. I implied a descent into norms where the internet is more like TV or radio were. Historically, the web has been a uniquely free medium. There is also a commercial dynamic side to this. Regulations and restrictions favour larger, stabler, more normative companies. Also, I don't think slippery slope arguments lend too well to analogies. Some slopes are slipperier than others. ..and the overthrow of the Nazi regime was not a democratic one. It was a violent one. All the methods were not part of normative politics. Banning Nazism was a part of that overthrow. What the shelling of Berlin a slippery slope? That said, i think the ban should have been lifted by later generations, a symbolic nod to freedom of speech and association. If even Nazis in France get free speech, it's a sign that those freedoms are strong.
- Trombone12 9y ago
  I don't think the internet has been a uniquely free medium, they all start out unregulated after all. It has been the most unregulated medium recently, this is true, but also a nearly vacuous statement since its the only really new medium for mass communication recently. And anyway posted letters are still a very free medium, with better privacy assurances than email ever had.
- shonenbat 9y ago
  The funny thing is, banning national socialism provides it with press, legitimacy and support. I believe the forces banning national socialism are aligned with (and perhaps: funding) the forces supporting national socialism. They're both in favor of rigid societal control structures (although their methods differ) and the repression of free speech. Both the supporters and attackers of national socialism tend to be socialists, in the "communism" sense and not in the sense of "democratic socialism". I'm not saying "Nazi", and that's not an "implicit endorsement" or a "dogwhistle". "Nazi" it is a 1920's slur invented by communists, based off "Sozi", a slur for socialists. I think it's a damaging and unproductive meme to call national socialism "Nazism", it's a barrier to discussion and understanding. If "Nazism" was both the vilest expression of hatred and cruelty by humanity ever, and a movement that was at the time supported by a large number of humans, it must contain some pretty powerful ideas. Studying it would be useful if only to find out how it came to exist and how a resurgence can be prevented, and if you do so I don't think your conclusion will be "ban Nazism and just embrace Sozism". The reverse also goes for communism, by the way.

atmosx 9y ago

Not yet, but if something doesn't change dramatically in the EU the countries you mentioned are on their way extremism (AfD, LePen)

seszett 9y ago
Are you arguing that banning Nazi memorabilia is leading to the rise of far-right parties? I think these two things are completely disconnected from each other. What we're talking about here is legislation, and legislation has not slipped towards censoring free speech more and more in the last seventy years (in France and Germany).
- atmosx 9y ago
  > Are you arguing that banning Nazi memorabilia is leading to the rise of far-right parties? No I'm not. Your statement is so far off that I can't help myself but wonder how did you arrive to this conclusion?!
  - seszett 9y ago
    Because if those things are disconnected, then your own comment was apparently off-topic. You posted a comment about the rise of far-right parties as an answer to one about the slippery slope of censorship.
zaarn 9y ago
The AfD has no real power in Germany. They may have swayed a few votes but in one or two legislation periods their voter base will have been quietly absorbed into the establishment (CDU and SPD) or the opposition (Greens, The Left) or the parties nobody likes (FDP). Basically none of the other parties in the government want to even consider cooperating with them, it'll fizzle out soon enough.
- majewsky 9y ago
  It's cute how you classify the Greens as opposition, and how you describe a party that just got 10.75% of the national vote two months ago as being liked by nobody.
  - zaarn 9y ago
    The greens always oppose anything sane, hence opposition. I haven't yet anybody who likes the FDP, hence nobody likes them. But I'm Bavarian so I might have a huge sampling bias thanks to us being 60%+ on the CSU.
    - majewsky 9y ago
      I haven't met anybody who likes the FDP either, but I'm conscious of that resulting from my social circle (which is heavily left-leaning). The poll results beat a single person's anecdata everytime.
- vixen99 9y ago
  Is becoming the third largest party in Germany after the 2017 federal election and getting 94 seats in the Bundestag suggestive of fizzling out? In the Netherlands, no one wants to cooperate with Wilders' Party either but in the recent election it became the second-largest party in the House of Representatives. 'Forget about it, they'll go away' is maybe the triumph of hope over experience.
  - zaarn 9y ago
    I see them being this big as positive in that it forces the remaining parties to finally figure out how to properly cooperate, as the CDU/SPD is a very unlikely coalition considering the last legislation period. The current Jamaika Coalition has basically put everyone in panic because for the first time in forever the major parties can't just vote what they want into parliament via coalition contracts. The AfD will be reabsorbed, don't worry about that, that's how it has worked the last couple decades. And in the meanwhile they can exert some healthy pressure on the rest of the Bundestag to get a bit of fresh air in there.

dalbasal 9y ago

That's kind of a straw man, I feel. At least, somewhat unfair. I didn't imply descent into fascism. I implied a descent into norms where the internet is more like TV or radio were. Historically, the web has been a uniquely free medium. There is also a commercial dynamic side to this. Regulations and restrictions favour larger, stabler, more normative companies. Also, I don't think slippery slope arguments lend too well to analogies. Some slopes are slipperier than others. ..and the overthrow of the Nazi regime was not a democratic one. It was a violent one. All the methods were not part of normative politics. Banning Nazism was a part of that overthrow. What the shelling of Berlin a slippery slope? That said, i think the ban should have been lifted by later generations, a symbolic nod to freedom of speech and association. If even Nazis in France get free speech, it's a sign that those freedoms are strong.

Trombone12 9y ago
I don't think the internet has been a uniquely free medium, they all start out unregulated after all. It has been the most unregulated medium recently, this is true, but also a nearly vacuous statement since its the only really new medium for mass communication recently. And anyway posted letters are still a very free medium, with better privacy assurances than email ever had.
shonenbat 9y ago
The funny thing is, banning national socialism provides it with press, legitimacy and support. I believe the forces banning national socialism are aligned with (and perhaps: funding) the forces supporting national socialism. They're both in favor of rigid societal control structures (although their methods differ) and the repression of free speech. Both the supporters and attackers of national socialism tend to be socialists, in the "communism" sense and not in the sense of "democratic socialism". I'm not saying "Nazi", and that's not an "implicit endorsement" or a "dogwhistle". "Nazi" it is a 1920's slur invented by communists, based off "Sozi", a slur for socialists. I think it's a damaging and unproductive meme to call national socialism "Nazism", it's a barrier to discussion and understanding. If "Nazism" was both the vilest expression of hatred and cruelty by humanity ever, and a movement that was at the time supported by a large number of humans, it must contain some pretty powerful ideas. Studying it would be useful if only to find out how it came to exist and how a resurgence can be prevented, and if you do so I don't think your conclusion will be "ban Nazism and just embrace Sozism". The reverse also goes for communism, by the way.