6 ms·

I am a python outsider, but like many others dealt with a lot of pain due to the simultaneous 2 and 3 versions. Looking at the history, I see python1 ended at

by nonbel 9y ago

I am a python outsider, but like many others dealt with a lot of pain due to the simultaneous 2 and 3 versions. Looking at the history, I see python1 ended at 1.6, and python2 ended at 2.7. Based on this the current python 3.6 seems to be nearing end of life. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Python https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Python So what will happen when python 4 comes out?

ubernostrum 9y ago
It's been clearly and unequivocally stated that a large breaking transition will not happen again.
rspeer 9y ago
The Python developers plan to never break syntax or stdlib compatibility again. Core developer Nick Coghlan wants to see 4.0 within the decade but he wants it to be "uneventful". [1] In that way, it would be a lot like Python 2.0, which only broke compatibility in obscure ways, but added new ways to do things. Here are some of my wild guesses at what features Python would want to commemorate with a 4.0 release: - An easy, Pythonic way to opt out of the Global Interpreter Lock. (The GIL clearly isn't going away because so much extension code needs it, but that doesn't mean all code has to suffer from the GIL for eternity.) - UTF-8 as the guaranteed default encoding, instead of trying to infer anything from stupid locale shit. (This wouldn't break any code that wasn't broken already.) - More built-in syntax to support NumPy. [1] https://www.curiousefficiency.org/posts/2014/08/python-4000.html https://www.curiousefficiency.org/posts/2014/08/python-4000....
- int_19h 9y ago
  > UTF-8 as the guaranteed default encoding, instead of trying to infer anything from stupid locale shit. This is already the case for source code, right? And I don't see where else it could apply. If you mean stdin/out, then those have to use locale to be compatible with other text-processing software (so that you can pipe things etc).
  - takluyver 9y ago
    Reading and writing files. This catches people out, because on most Linux and Mac systems it defaults to UTF-8, so people assume UTF-8 is the default. But it's based on the locale, so one day someone runs your code on Windows, or on Linux with the basic ANSI C locale, and suddenly writing text to a file blows up. This is the number one thing I'd change if I were in charge of Python. ;-)
    - int_19h 9y ago
      I would actually rather change it to make the encoding required when opening a text file. Sometimes you do want UTF-8, but other times you do actually want locale encoding (because other text processing tools expect locale). And then "Explicit is better than implicit". That said, .NET has been defaulting to UTF-8 for text files since 1.0, and it seems to be working well in practice, so maybe it is a reasonable default after all.
  - rspeer 9y ago
    Locales are not a real way of specifying an encoding for standard in and out. They were not designed for a world with Unicode and UTF-8 in it; they were designed for a world with limited character sets where your text data would probably not be sent outside of your country. Here are some reasons not to try to get your locale to tell you about UTF-8: - There is no standard for this. - Locale suffixes ".utf8" and ".UTF-8" are hacks by specific Linux distributions, and people want their Python code to work even if their system has not implemented this hack. - The locale "C" does not really mean you want your program to explode when it sees a non-ASCII byte. What Python does here does not promote compatibility in any way. - BSD has no UTF-8 locales and has never pretended that locales work with Unicode. - Windows' equivalent of locales is extremely deprecated and never actually supported UTF-8. The modern Windows APIs that deal with standard in and out correspond to Python's Unicode string type, not its bytes type; encoding the Unicode I/O into bytes is not Python's responsibility. - Really every operating system but Linux has this figured out, and in practice, Linux users want UTF-8 regardless of what their locale says. To be compatible with other text-processing software in 2017, you don't use locales, you use Unicode APIs and UTF-8.
takeda 9y ago
GIL :) Larry is surely working on it.
- takeda 9y ago
  For anyone interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLqv11ScGsQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLqv11ScGsQ

by nonbel 9y ago

ubernostrum 9y ago

It's been clearly and unequivocally stated that a large breaking transition will not happen again.

rspeer 9y ago

The Python developers plan to never break syntax or stdlib compatibility again. Core developer Nick Coghlan wants to see 4.0 within the decade but he wants it to be "uneventful". [1] In that way, it would be a lot like Python 2.0, which only broke compatibility in obscure ways, but added new ways to do things. Here are some of my wild guesses at what features Python would want to commemorate with a 4.0 release: - An easy, Pythonic way to opt out of the Global Interpreter Lock. (The GIL clearly isn't going away because so much extension code needs it, but that doesn't mean all code has to suffer from the GIL for eternity.) - UTF-8 as the guaranteed default encoding, instead of trying to infer anything from stupid locale shit. (This wouldn't break any code that wasn't broken already.) - More built-in syntax to support NumPy. [1] https://www.curiousefficiency.org/posts/2014/08/python-4000.html https://www.curiousefficiency.org/posts/2014/08/python-4000....

int_19h 9y ago
> UTF-8 as the guaranteed default encoding, instead of trying to infer anything from stupid locale shit. This is already the case for source code, right? And I don't see where else it could apply. If you mean stdin/out, then those have to use locale to be compatible with other text-processing software (so that you can pipe things etc).
- takluyver 9y ago
  Reading and writing files. This catches people out, because on most Linux and Mac systems it defaults to UTF-8, so people assume UTF-8 is the default. But it's based on the locale, so one day someone runs your code on Windows, or on Linux with the basic ANSI C locale, and suddenly writing text to a file blows up. This is the number one thing I'd change if I were in charge of Python. ;-)
  - int_19h 9y ago
    I would actually rather change it to make the encoding required when opening a text file. Sometimes you do want UTF-8, but other times you do actually want locale encoding (because other text processing tools expect locale). And then "Explicit is better than implicit". That said, .NET has been defaulting to UTF-8 for text files since 1.0, and it seems to be working well in practice, so maybe it is a reasonable default after all.
- rspeer 9y ago
  Locales are not a real way of specifying an encoding for standard in and out. They were not designed for a world with Unicode and UTF-8 in it; they were designed for a world with limited character sets where your text data would probably not be sent outside of your country. Here are some reasons not to try to get your locale to tell you about UTF-8: - There is no standard for this. - Locale suffixes ".utf8" and ".UTF-8" are hacks by specific Linux distributions, and people want their Python code to work even if their system has not implemented this hack. - The locale "C" does not really mean you want your program to explode when it sees a non-ASCII byte. What Python does here does not promote compatibility in any way. - BSD has no UTF-8 locales and has never pretended that locales work with Unicode. - Windows' equivalent of locales is extremely deprecated and never actually supported UTF-8. The modern Windows APIs that deal with standard in and out correspond to Python's Unicode string type, not its bytes type; encoding the Unicode I/O into bytes is not Python's responsibility. - Really every operating system but Linux has this figured out, and in practice, Linux users want UTF-8 regardless of what their locale says. To be compatible with other text-processing software in 2017, you don't use locales, you use Unicode APIs and UTF-8.

takeda 9y ago

GIL :) Larry is surely working on it.

takeda 9y ago
For anyone interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLqv11ScGsQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLqv11ScGsQ