9 ms·

Better have a bricked phone but secured phone? That is basically your argument? Security is used to euthanize perfectly working systems and harass users for mo

Better have a bricked phone but secured phone? That is basically your argument? Security is used to euthanize perfectly working systems and harass users for money. Security has become dangerous for the user in that aspect.

amelius 9y ago
That's one reason I'm still hoping for a Linux/Firefox phone.
- noobermin 9y ago
  There's not much left to hope for as every platform that attempted one has fizzled out.
- la_oveja 9y ago
  You can already have a Linux phone.
  - amelius 9y ago
    But it doesn't run my banking app.
    - jhasse 9y ago
      Most banking apps are available for Android, which uses the Linux kernel.
      - amelius 9y ago
        Yeah, it uses the Linux kernel, but I wouldn't call it a "Linux phone".
        laumars 9y ago
        I'll grant you that GP was being pedantic but he is also correct. The only part in Debian/RHEL/Arch/whatever that is Linux is the kernel. "Linux" only refers to the kernel. So technically Android is also a distribution of Linux. I think what you're arguing is that Android isn't GNU/Linux or that Android isn't libre like what we've come to expect from desktop distributions of Linux.
    - vetinari 9y ago
      Your bank doesn't have a website?
      - amelius 9y ago
        Yes, but it requires the use of a dongle/calculator to access it, whereas the app just requires a personal code.
    - la_oveja 9y ago
      Go ask your bank an app for Linux.
- pksadiq 9y ago
  > That's one reason I'm still hoping for a Linux/Firefox phone. You should rather hope for GNU/Linux phones. Linux devices (without the GNU part) is most of the time, just another locked device (see your Android phone, router, TV, etc). The presence of GNU software pieces (or any software licensed under GNU [LA]GPL v3+) ensures the device is free of locks (or with user breakable locks).
  - jhasse 9y ago
    > The presence of GNU software pieces (or any software licensed under GNU [LA]GPL v3+) ensures the device is free of locks (or with user breakable locks). That's not true, as the Linux kernel is still GPLv2. So while you could swap out the userspace GNU utils, the device manufacturer can still lock the bootloader which is perfectly fine with the GPLv2. Even if the bootloader is unlockable (e.g. LG allows this btw), you will most likely be stuck to a specific kernel version due to proprietary binary blobs which nearly every phone uses. So instead of a GNU/Linux phone, you should rather hope for a phone with complete open source drivers (or a GPLv3 kernel).
    - pksadiq 9y ago
      > That's not true, as the Linux kernel is still GPLv2. So while you could swap out the userspace GNU utils, the device manufacturer can still lock the bootloader which is perfectly fine with the GPLv2. Yeah, probably. But the presence of packages like GNU libc can make it harder for the manufacturer to lock the device. > ... kernel version due to proprietary binary blobs which nearly every phone uses. Sadly, binary blobs are always an issue. In the case of Linux, this happened because many Linux developers don't care about binary blobs. If they did, you won't see any binary blobs (as it is a violation of GNU GPL). > ... with complete open source drivers My main point was to quote that 'open source' doesn't solve these issues. We should take software freedom more seriously. > ... (or a GPLv3 kernel). I wish we will not have to wait until the human civilization end in fire to see this.
      - jhasse 9y ago
        > Yeah, probably. But the presence of packages like GNU libc can make it harder for the manufacturer to lock the device. glibc is LGPL, so I don't see how that should change anything? > (as it is a violation of GNU GPL). IIRC it's a gray area.
- nowherecat 9y ago
  How about Purism's Librem 5? https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/ https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/ Librem 5, the phone that focuses on security by design and privacy protection by default. Running Free/Libre and Open Source software and a GNU+Linux Operating System designed to create an open development utopia, rather than the walled gardens from all other phone providers.
  - zingmars 9y ago
    Isn't out yet and from what I can tell they haven't released much info about it yet. Maybe will be worth revisiting the idea when it's actually released.
  - Tepix 9y ago
    If they release it with the slow outdated i.MX 6 CPU it will be terrible. Let's hope it will be the i.MX 8.
Quarrelsome 9y ago
> Security is used to euthanize perfectly working systems and harass users for money That's a cynical and paranoid mindset. Bloat is a lazy tendency not a malicious evil and developers tend to optimise for the latest and greatest if left unchecked and forced to consider backwards compatibility. > Better have a bricked phone but secured phone? lets just say don't do any financial transactions on the device or appreciate the general openness of your phone to malicious actors who might use it for nefarious purposes.
- quanticle 9y ago
  That's a cynical and paranoid mindset. Bloat is a lazy tendency not a malicious evil and developers tend to optimise for the latest and greatest if left unchecked and forced to consider backwards compatibility. As a user, do I care whether my phone is unusable because the developers wanted specifically to render older hardware unusable or whether it was just through their negligence in failing to consider older devices? Stupidity or malice, the result is the same. lets just say don't do any financial transactions on the device or appreciate the general openness of your phone to malicious actors who might use it for nefarious purposes. I keep hearing this, but what's the actual presence of malware on Android? If you're not installing shady apps from the Play Store, what's your actual level of risk? Android, even old versions of Android, are far harder to reliably exploit than say, unpatched Windows. As long as you're not installing free-to-play flashlight apps that require every permission under the sun, I'd say your exposure to malware on Android is far less than it is on PC. For the average user, they're still probably better off conducting financial transactions on their phone than conducting those same transactions on their malware ridden laptops.
  - viraptor 9y ago
    > I keep hearing this, but what's the actual presence of malware on Android? If you're not installing shady apps from the Play Store, what's your actual level of risk? I wish I could quantify that. It's a hard task. But the store is not the only possible vector. On an old Android you're running a very outdated version of Chrome when looking at any pages / ads. That would be the most exposed/insecure element in the system.
akoncius 9y ago
It’s not “perfectly working” if it is wulnerable to many hacks.

amelius 9y ago

That's one reason I'm still hoping for a Linux/Firefox phone.

noobermin 9y ago
There's not much left to hope for as every platform that attempted one has fizzled out.
la_oveja 9y ago
You can already have a Linux phone.
- amelius 9y ago
  But it doesn't run my banking app.
  - jhasse 9y ago
    Most banking apps are available for Android, which uses the Linux kernel.
    - amelius 9y ago
      Yeah, it uses the Linux kernel, but I wouldn't call it a "Linux phone".
      - laumars 9y ago
        I'll grant you that GP was being pedantic but he is also correct. The only part in Debian/RHEL/Arch/whatever that is Linux is the kernel. "Linux" only refers to the kernel. So technically Android is also a distribution of Linux. I think what you're arguing is that Android isn't GNU/Linux or that Android isn't libre like what we've come to expect from desktop distributions of Linux.
  - vetinari 9y ago
    Your bank doesn't have a website?
    - amelius 9y ago
      Yes, but it requires the use of a dongle/calculator to access it, whereas the app just requires a personal code.
  - la_oveja 9y ago
    Go ask your bank an app for Linux.
pksadiq 9y ago
> That's one reason I'm still hoping for a Linux/Firefox phone. You should rather hope for GNU/Linux phones. Linux devices (without the GNU part) is most of the time, just another locked device (see your Android phone, router, TV, etc). The presence of GNU software pieces (or any software licensed under GNU [LA]GPL v3+) ensures the device is free of locks (or with user breakable locks).
- jhasse 9y ago
  > The presence of GNU software pieces (or any software licensed under GNU [LA]GPL v3+) ensures the device is free of locks (or with user breakable locks). That's not true, as the Linux kernel is still GPLv2. So while you could swap out the userspace GNU utils, the device manufacturer can still lock the bootloader which is perfectly fine with the GPLv2. Even if the bootloader is unlockable (e.g. LG allows this btw), you will most likely be stuck to a specific kernel version due to proprietary binary blobs which nearly every phone uses. So instead of a GNU/Linux phone, you should rather hope for a phone with complete open source drivers (or a GPLv3 kernel).
  - pksadiq 9y ago
    > That's not true, as the Linux kernel is still GPLv2. So while you could swap out the userspace GNU utils, the device manufacturer can still lock the bootloader which is perfectly fine with the GPLv2. Yeah, probably. But the presence of packages like GNU libc can make it harder for the manufacturer to lock the device. > ... kernel version due to proprietary binary blobs which nearly every phone uses. Sadly, binary blobs are always an issue. In the case of Linux, this happened because many Linux developers don't care about binary blobs. If they did, you won't see any binary blobs (as it is a violation of GNU GPL). > ... with complete open source drivers My main point was to quote that 'open source' doesn't solve these issues. We should take software freedom more seriously. > ... (or a GPLv3 kernel). I wish we will not have to wait until the human civilization end in fire to see this.
    - jhasse 9y ago
      > Yeah, probably. But the presence of packages like GNU libc can make it harder for the manufacturer to lock the device. glibc is LGPL, so I don't see how that should change anything? > (as it is a violation of GNU GPL). IIRC it's a gray area.
nowherecat 9y ago
How about Purism's Librem 5? https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/ https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/ Librem 5, the phone that focuses on security by design and privacy protection by default. Running Free/Libre and Open Source software and a GNU+Linux Operating System designed to create an open development utopia, rather than the walled gardens from all other phone providers.
- zingmars 9y ago
  Isn't out yet and from what I can tell they haven't released much info about it yet. Maybe will be worth revisiting the idea when it's actually released.
- Tepix 9y ago
  If they release it with the slow outdated i.MX 6 CPU it will be terrible. Let's hope it will be the i.MX 8.

Quarrelsome 9y ago

> Security is used to euthanize perfectly working systems and harass users for money That's a cynical and paranoid mindset. Bloat is a lazy tendency not a malicious evil and developers tend to optimise for the latest and greatest if left unchecked and forced to consider backwards compatibility. > Better have a bricked phone but secured phone? lets just say don't do any financial transactions on the device or appreciate the general openness of your phone to malicious actors who might use it for nefarious purposes.

quanticle 9y ago
That's a cynical and paranoid mindset. Bloat is a lazy tendency not a malicious evil and developers tend to optimise for the latest and greatest if left unchecked and forced to consider backwards compatibility. As a user, do I care whether my phone is unusable because the developers wanted specifically to render older hardware unusable or whether it was just through their negligence in failing to consider older devices? Stupidity or malice, the result is the same. lets just say don't do any financial transactions on the device or appreciate the general openness of your phone to malicious actors who might use it for nefarious purposes. I keep hearing this, but what's the actual presence of malware on Android? If you're not installing shady apps from the Play Store, what's your actual level of risk? Android, even old versions of Android, are far harder to reliably exploit than say, unpatched Windows. As long as you're not installing free-to-play flashlight apps that require every permission under the sun, I'd say your exposure to malware on Android is far less than it is on PC. For the average user, they're still probably better off conducting financial transactions on their phone than conducting those same transactions on their malware ridden laptops.
- viraptor 9y ago
  > I keep hearing this, but what's the actual presence of malware on Android? If you're not installing shady apps from the Play Store, what's your actual level of risk? I wish I could quantify that. It's a hard task. But the store is not the only possible vector. On an old Android you're running a very outdated version of Chrome when looking at any pages / ads. That would be the most exposed/insecure element in the system.

akoncius 9y ago

It’s not “perfectly working” if it is wulnerable to many hacks.