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There might be problems with the laws still. I.e. Polish constitution has 'Public authorities shall not acquire, collect nor make accessible information on citi

by FRex 9y ago

There might be problems with the laws still. I.e. Polish constitution has 'Public authorities shall not acquire, collect nor make accessible information on citizens other than that which is necessary in a democratic state ruled by law.'. There are many techs out there that are quite dystopian (face scans, mass surveillance, etc.) or outright evil (alleged organ harvesting of death row inmates in China) but yet the governments aren't doing it. Even that article in Polish constitution smells (to me personally) like it came due to secret police back in communism collecting 'dirt' on people, that required 0 tech, just secret informants with small monetary incentives or who were blackmailed with dirt already collected, telling little bits of 'innocent' things and yet I can't imagine many (if any) countries Western democratic doing that.

JumpCrisscross 9y ago
> outright evil (alleged organ harvesting of death row inmates in China) Why is this necessarily evil?
- berbec 9y ago
  While if done properly, this isn't in and of itself evil, it leads to a slippery slope. Larry Niven wrote stories of a future where the organ banks were always empty, and the population voted the death penalty in for lesser and lesser crimes. The tale I recall has a man trying to escape from his capital trial for running a red light.
  - tehlike 9y ago
    sounds like an episode from black mirror.
  - sitkack 9y ago
    They wouldn't be red lights anymore, they would be organ donation lights.
- pjc50 9y ago
  - Consent violation: important part of medical ethics. - it provides an additional financial incentive to execute inmates
  - freeone3000 9y ago
    If they're dead, why is their consent required?
    - akubera 9y ago
      Are you suggesting the state has a right to execute any inmate because they will not object after they are dead?
- yardie 9y ago
  The prime minister needs a new kidney and we’ve found the perfect match. But he is on prison for robbery. Well, just upgrade that robbery to capital offense and kill 2 birds... Brilliant, Watson! I’ll inform the prime minister’s family immediately.
  - vixen99 9y ago
    Yes and of course that only occurs in horrible corrupt states - never in our back yard.
    - yardie 9y ago
      You're going to have to be specific about who's backyard. Western Europe doesn't allow executions. The UK doesn't accept organ donation from executed prisoners due to moral perceptions. And the US flat out doesn't do it because the AMA will have no part in it. So if there is evidence of prisoner organ donation please present it.
      - Sargos 9y ago
        Denigrating the US whenever you can works very well on reddit and instantly makes your comment a star. I think they hoped it would work here too.
sho 9y ago
> other than that which is necessary in a democratic state ruled by law Well the thing is that is open to interpretation. You can define anything as "necessary". From what I have heard the typical "foot in the door", if you will, is AML/KYC. There's a convenient intersection there between anti-terrorism (national security) and the everyday (banking). Bring those together and now you have a perfectly plausible excuse to build a biometric database on everyone with a bank account - ie, everyone. And once you've got that DB, wouldn't it be positively remiss not to start using it at the borders? This is the legal basis of the DB in a certain large asian country you've heard of and, on information and belief, it's being expanded to airports too under the guise of national security. The DB has never been announced or confirmed but its existence can be inferred from KYC banking processes there. The future is now! > but yet the governments aren't doing it I would be very surprised if a biometric database doesn't exist in most moderately wealthy countries, even in Poland. They may not (yet) be able to use it legally but knowing the general climate you'd think the various intelligence organisations almost aren't doing their job if they didn't have it.
- FRex 9y ago
  That was just an example of such a line since I know only Polish constitution. I know that everything legal is open to really wide and crazy interpretations already but if there weren't such a line to interpret there would be no chance for an anti-scanning interpretation. It could also end up being limited to foreigners since the line protects citizens specifically. It depends what do you mean by biometrics database, i.e.: Polish passports are 'biometric' and have two index fingerprints stored in them for a few years now. I have no idea if the passport database is accessible to police or if there is any face scanning going on. I'd say the foot in the door is airports themselves. You already need a passport or ID there so the face scan is literally no new information and only confirming what the papers say. The real creepy tech to me is mass country wide face scanning to track everyone everywhere 24/7 and see what they do, who they associate with, etc. and possible future airport brain scans (like MRI to detect positive or negative emotions in response to a country flag or a picture of state head for example).
ionised 9y ago
While a lot of Central/Eastern European countries are wary of this having had history with pervasive surveillance under the Soviets, many are also very nationalistic and right-wing. All it takes is some demagoguery and opportunism to convince the populace that it is in their interests, like what has happened in the UK and US.
- aerique 9y ago
  They will become less wary over time. The same thing happened in Western Europe: policies which governments didn't even dare proposing a few decades ago (because of experiences in WW2) are now being pushed through without much resistance under the guise of terrorism or child pornography. I don't even think it's an organized effort to create a totalitarian state but more how such a state will emerge from the interaction between public, media and politics.

by FRex 9y ago

JumpCrisscross 9y ago

> outright evil (alleged organ harvesting of death row inmates in China) Why is this necessarily evil?

berbec 9y ago
While if done properly, this isn't in and of itself evil, it leads to a slippery slope. Larry Niven wrote stories of a future where the organ banks were always empty, and the population voted the death penalty in for lesser and lesser crimes. The tale I recall has a man trying to escape from his capital trial for running a red light.
- tehlike 9y ago
  sounds like an episode from black mirror.
- sitkack 9y ago
  They wouldn't be red lights anymore, they would be organ donation lights.
pjc50 9y ago
- Consent violation: important part of medical ethics. - it provides an additional financial incentive to execute inmates
- freeone3000 9y ago
  If they're dead, why is their consent required?
  - akubera 9y ago
    Are you suggesting the state has a right to execute any inmate because they will not object after they are dead?
yardie 9y ago
The prime minister needs a new kidney and we’ve found the perfect match. But he is on prison for robbery. Well, just upgrade that robbery to capital offense and kill 2 birds... Brilliant, Watson! I’ll inform the prime minister’s family immediately.
- vixen99 9y ago
  Yes and of course that only occurs in horrible corrupt states - never in our back yard.
  - yardie 9y ago
    You're going to have to be specific about who's backyard. Western Europe doesn't allow executions. The UK doesn't accept organ donation from executed prisoners due to moral perceptions. And the US flat out doesn't do it because the AMA will have no part in it. So if there is evidence of prisoner organ donation please present it.
    - Sargos 9y ago
      Denigrating the US whenever you can works very well on reddit and instantly makes your comment a star. I think they hoped it would work here too.

sho 9y ago

> other than that which is necessary in a democratic state ruled by law Well the thing is that is open to interpretation. You can define anything as "necessary". From what I have heard the typical "foot in the door", if you will, is AML/KYC. There's a convenient intersection there between anti-terrorism (national security) and the everyday (banking). Bring those together and now you have a perfectly plausible excuse to build a biometric database on everyone with a bank account - ie, everyone. And once you've got that DB, wouldn't it be positively remiss not to start using it at the borders? This is the legal basis of the DB in a certain large asian country you've heard of and, on information and belief, it's being expanded to airports too under the guise of national security. The DB has never been announced or confirmed but its existence can be inferred from KYC banking processes there. The future is now! > but yet the governments aren't doing it I would be very surprised if a biometric database doesn't exist in most moderately wealthy countries, even in Poland. They may not (yet) be able to use it legally but knowing the general climate you'd think the various intelligence organisations almost aren't doing their job if they didn't have it.

FRex 9y ago
That was just an example of such a line since I know only Polish constitution. I know that everything legal is open to really wide and crazy interpretations already but if there weren't such a line to interpret there would be no chance for an anti-scanning interpretation. It could also end up being limited to foreigners since the line protects citizens specifically. It depends what do you mean by biometrics database, i.e.: Polish passports are 'biometric' and have two index fingerprints stored in them for a few years now. I have no idea if the passport database is accessible to police or if there is any face scanning going on. I'd say the foot in the door is airports themselves. You already need a passport or ID there so the face scan is literally no new information and only confirming what the papers say. The real creepy tech to me is mass country wide face scanning to track everyone everywhere 24/7 and see what they do, who they associate with, etc. and possible future airport brain scans (like MRI to detect positive or negative emotions in response to a country flag or a picture of state head for example).

ionised 9y ago

While a lot of Central/Eastern European countries are wary of this having had history with pervasive surveillance under the Soviets, many are also very nationalistic and right-wing. All it takes is some demagoguery and opportunism to convince the populace that it is in their interests, like what has happened in the UK and US.

aerique 9y ago
They will become less wary over time. The same thing happened in Western Europe: policies which governments didn't even dare proposing a few decades ago (because of experiences in WW2) are now being pushed through without much resistance under the guise of terrorism or child pornography. I don't even think it's an organized effort to create a totalitarian state but more how such a state will emerge from the interaction between public, media and politics.