5 ms·

Makes sense, seat space isn't really something you consider when shopping for plane tickets. Airlines have nothing to gain by making bigger seats, so the natura

by luckyt 9y ago

Makes sense, seat space isn't really something you consider when shopping for plane tickets. Airlines have nothing to gain by making bigger seats, so the natural progression down this road is smaller and smaller seats -- already, some seats for budget airlines are half-standing [1]. [1]: https://thepointsguy.com/2017/06/standing-seats-on-vivacolombia/ https://thepointsguy.com/2017/06/standing-seats-on-vivacolom...

gxs 9y ago
Wow, that's like something out of the onion. Someone should create a travel site like Kayak with a lot more details about the airline you're flying - how often they are late, CSAT score (can be bogus, I know), seating room, etc. The old adage is that you can't manage what you don't measure, I'd love to see this stuff quantified every time I search so that I can manage my travel/money better.
- hboon 9y ago
  https://www.seatguru.com https://www.seatguru.com maybe
konschubert 9y ago
I call bullshit on the standing seats. "May introduce"... That's a marketing gag to establish the airline as low budget. Ryanair did the same thing some years ago. Such seats would need to get approved by the FAA and I'm pretty sure they haven't been.
- bjelkeman-again 9y ago
  I am sure Ryanair say just this to anchor the current shitty conditions. "At least I don't have to pay for the toilet [1] and I still have a seat". [1] https://www.theguardian.com/money/2009/feb/27/ryanair-toilet-charge https://www.theguardian.com/money/2009/feb/27/ryanair-toilet...
  - secfirstmd 9y ago
    Michael O'Leary said ages ago he was taking the piss out of people and getting free oublicitt with those two concepts.
peteretep 9y ago
> Makes sense, seat space isn't really > something you consider when shopping > for plane tickets And at the other end, international business class seats keep getting better and better because it's absolutely a consideration. Hence: premium economy.
- carlmr 9y ago
  On most comparison shopping websites, seat space isn't mentioned. Business class is out of reach for most people traveling economy.
- cm2187 9y ago
  That's not true for all passengers. I am sure I am not the only one to maintain a personal blacklist of airlines on which I had consistently horrendous experiences and will not fly with unless I have no other choice.
- sleavey 9y ago
  I'm often surprised just how much more expensive premium economy tickets are. I get that some people are willing to pay more for extra legroom, free/better food and drink and so on, but the cost is often 5x that of standard economy. To me, that seems a ridiculous markup to pay for slightly more comfort for only a few hours, but I guess it works because airlines sell and fill these seats.
  - viraptor 9y ago
    > for slightly more comfort for only a few hours If it's only a few hours, sure, not a big difference. But when I fly Melbourne-London, premium economy is a difference between being a zombie for the next 48h, or arriving just tired. How much is the day after travel worth for you?
    - grkvlt 9y ago
      yeah, for TATL (LHR to JFK minimum) or longer (SFO etc) travel, there is a quantifiable difference in comfort for premium economy, at least in BA which i normally fly. although, i actually had a reasonable flight in economy from EWR to EDI recently in United recently, but only because i ended up with a row of three seats to myself!
randycupertino 9y ago
I exclusively fly Virgin because their seats are 1.5" bigger and have 2" bigger leg room.
- colde 9y ago
  Which Virgin is that? Atlantic, Australia og US?
arnvald 9y ago
I think the first time I read about "standing seats" was in Ryanair magazine in 2010. They didn't introduce it, I'm sure it was because of regulations (but they're from EU, maybe airlines in other parts of the world could do that).
- IshKebab 9y ago
  No they never intended to introduce it. They says something crazy like that every now and then to get in the news and to remind people they are cheap. They've had: * Pay for the toilet * Standing 'seats' * Allow customers to watch porn Probably others I've forgotten. They've even admitted they are marketing stunts.
  - viraptor 9y ago
    They also did tiny beds, stacked. Which is annoying, because I'd actually pay extra to fly laying down. I don't even care how much space is available.
    - grkvlt 9y ago
      Which you can already do. This is exactly what business class is, right now! For example, the top deck of a BA 747 is entirely lay-flat business seats, which are incredibly comfortable for long haul. But, as you say, you have to pay (somewhat) extra, or live in hope that the computer gods decide to upgrade you...
Jedd 9y ago
> Airlines have nothing to gain by making bigger seats ... This is only because airlines are not obliged to -- or have not yet engaged in a marketing war with each other by -- advertising seat dimensions, either during the booking process, or via more general marketing. I expect it'd be more useful, way more effective, and naturally less cost, to do it during the booking phase. While this may seem like it'd risk losing customers, word of mouth is powerful in this sector. A succinct addenda such as 'compared to Xyz airline that has 50mm less space', and a hover-over picture that shows someone being annoyed by the less spacious seat, perhaps being served a meal of dubious origin by someone wearing Xyz uniform, just to drive it home. I should be in advertising. (My understanding is that 'attack' advertising is more acceptable within the US. Here in AU we're unlikely to see this kind of thing due to a dearth of carrier choice. No idea about other parts of the world.)
- mathgeek 9y ago
  Some airlines already do promote it, but in a sneaky way. I've seen "the most legroom in economy class" but it doesn't specify the dimensions.
  - Jedd 9y ago
    I've seen those claims too, but as you say, they never specify dimensions, so they're in the same credibility category as 'the best pizza in town'.
- splonk 9y ago
  The conventional wisdom on this is that historically, any attempt by airlines to differentiate their economy class product on any dimension other than price has failed. There's always a vocal subset of people complaining, but when push comes to shove, the large majority of customers will pick the flight with the lowest price. Arguably we will eventually reach some level of service that is so unbelievably crappy that people will be willing to pay more to avoid it, but the success of the low cost carriers suggests to me that we're not there yet.
  - 9y ago
prostoalex 9y ago
> Airlines have nothing to gain by making bigger seats They do gain revenue from upselling "premium economy".
ojiikun 9y ago
Pretty much anyone who has so much as heard about seatguru will beg to differ! A few of the kayak / goog flights sites even display seat pitch in search results, now.

by luckyt 9y ago

gxs 9y ago

Wow, that's like something out of the onion. Someone should create a travel site like Kayak with a lot more details about the airline you're flying - how often they are late, CSAT score (can be bogus, I know), seating room, etc. The old adage is that you can't manage what you don't measure, I'd love to see this stuff quantified every time I search so that I can manage my travel/money better.

hboon 9y ago
https://www.seatguru.com https://www.seatguru.com maybe

konschubert 9y ago

I call bullshit on the standing seats. "May introduce"... That's a marketing gag to establish the airline as low budget. Ryanair did the same thing some years ago. Such seats would need to get approved by the FAA and I'm pretty sure they haven't been.

bjelkeman-again 9y ago
I am sure Ryanair say just this to anchor the current shitty conditions. "At least I don't have to pay for the toilet [1] and I still have a seat". [1] https://www.theguardian.com/money/2009/feb/27/ryanair-toilet-charge https://www.theguardian.com/money/2009/feb/27/ryanair-toilet...
- secfirstmd 9y ago
  Michael O'Leary said ages ago he was taking the piss out of people and getting free oublicitt with those two concepts.

peteretep 9y ago

> Makes sense, seat space isn't really > something you consider when shopping > for plane tickets And at the other end, international business class seats keep getting better and better because it's absolutely a consideration. Hence: premium economy.

carlmr 9y ago
On most comparison shopping websites, seat space isn't mentioned. Business class is out of reach for most people traveling economy.
cm2187 9y ago
That's not true for all passengers. I am sure I am not the only one to maintain a personal blacklist of airlines on which I had consistently horrendous experiences and will not fly with unless I have no other choice.
sleavey 9y ago
I'm often surprised just how much more expensive premium economy tickets are. I get that some people are willing to pay more for extra legroom, free/better food and drink and so on, but the cost is often 5x that of standard economy. To me, that seems a ridiculous markup to pay for slightly more comfort for only a few hours, but I guess it works because airlines sell and fill these seats.
- viraptor 9y ago
  > for slightly more comfort for only a few hours If it's only a few hours, sure, not a big difference. But when I fly Melbourne-London, premium economy is a difference between being a zombie for the next 48h, or arriving just tired. How much is the day after travel worth for you?
  - grkvlt 9y ago
    yeah, for TATL (LHR to JFK minimum) or longer (SFO etc) travel, there is a quantifiable difference in comfort for premium economy, at least in BA which i normally fly. although, i actually had a reasonable flight in economy from EWR to EDI recently in United recently, but only because i ended up with a row of three seats to myself!

randycupertino 9y ago

I exclusively fly Virgin because their seats are 1.5" bigger and have 2" bigger leg room.

colde 9y ago
Which Virgin is that? Atlantic, Australia og US?

arnvald 9y ago

I think the first time I read about "standing seats" was in Ryanair magazine in 2010. They didn't introduce it, I'm sure it was because of regulations (but they're from EU, maybe airlines in other parts of the world could do that).

IshKebab 9y ago
No they never intended to introduce it. They says something crazy like that every now and then to get in the news and to remind people they are cheap. They've had: * Pay for the toilet * Standing 'seats' * Allow customers to watch porn Probably others I've forgotten. They've even admitted they are marketing stunts.
- viraptor 9y ago
  They also did tiny beds, stacked. Which is annoying, because I'd actually pay extra to fly laying down. I don't even care how much space is available.
  - grkvlt 9y ago
    Which you can already do. This is exactly what business class is, right now! For example, the top deck of a BA 747 is entirely lay-flat business seats, which are incredibly comfortable for long haul. But, as you say, you have to pay (somewhat) extra, or live in hope that the computer gods decide to upgrade you...

Jedd 9y ago

> Airlines have nothing to gain by making bigger seats ... This is only because airlines are not obliged to -- or have not yet engaged in a marketing war with each other by -- advertising seat dimensions, either during the booking process, or via more general marketing. I expect it'd be more useful, way more effective, and naturally less cost, to do it during the booking phase. While this may seem like it'd risk losing customers, word of mouth is powerful in this sector. A succinct addenda such as 'compared to Xyz airline that has 50mm less space', and a hover-over picture that shows someone being annoyed by the less spacious seat, perhaps being served a meal of dubious origin by someone wearing Xyz uniform, just to drive it home. I should be in advertising. (My understanding is that 'attack' advertising is more acceptable within the US. Here in AU we're unlikely to see this kind of thing due to a dearth of carrier choice. No idea about other parts of the world.)

mathgeek 9y ago
Some airlines already do promote it, but in a sneaky way. I've seen "the most legroom in economy class" but it doesn't specify the dimensions.
- Jedd 9y ago
  I've seen those claims too, but as you say, they never specify dimensions, so they're in the same credibility category as 'the best pizza in town'.
splonk 9y ago
The conventional wisdom on this is that historically, any attempt by airlines to differentiate their economy class product on any dimension other than price has failed. There's always a vocal subset of people complaining, but when push comes to shove, the large majority of customers will pick the flight with the lowest price. Arguably we will eventually reach some level of service that is so unbelievably crappy that people will be willing to pay more to avoid it, but the success of the low cost carriers suggests to me that we're not there yet.
- 9y ago

prostoalex 9y ago

> Airlines have nothing to gain by making bigger seats They do gain revenue from upselling "premium economy".

ojiikun 9y ago

Pretty much anyone who has so much as heard about seatguru will beg to differ! A few of the kayak / goog flights sites even display seat pitch in search results, now.