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>I have a US perspective so I'm interested in why this ruling was made. Your "USA perspective" reminded me of a concept called "court rulings as informal tarif

by jasode 9y ago

>I have a US perspective so I'm interested in why this ruling was made. Your "USA perspective" reminded me of a concept called "court rulings as informal tariffs". Basically, when a foreign company is tried in the courts, the rulings will often favor the side that's aligned with the country's own court. (In this case, it's the UK drivers.) The idea is, we can't objectively analyze rulings purely on its legal merits. Instead, there's always a country's (unstated) self-interest that's entangled in the judgement. (E.g. our home-grown London drivers deserve more money instead of USA's Uber executives.) The USA would have the same bias. If a Korean company like Samsung is being sued by American company like Apple in a USA court, it's likely that Apple will win. Likewise, an American company like Google will lose more rulings by the EU than EU companies. Again, it doesn't mean Uber is innocent. It's an observation that we didn't see the same government scrutiny about UK ride-sharing services like Hailo (subsequently absorbed by Mytaxi) about classifying contractors as workers. UK taxi drivers are generally contractors[1] but Uber attracted the ire that other ride-sharing apps didn't. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vat-notice-70025-taxis-and-private-hire-cars/vat-notice-70025-taxis-and-private-hire-cars#drivers-of-taxis-and-private-hire-cars https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vat-notice-70025-... (EDIT: thanks for correction kbart. I was reading about Lexus and had Japan on my brain.)

kbart 9y ago
Just a nitpick, but Samsung is Korean company.
vidarh 9y ago
Hailo provided an ability for people who are largely already contractors an additional channel for bookings. The fact that these people are already operating a business and Hailo just provided an additional marketing and booking channel for them makes for a very different situation.
- jasode 9y ago
  >largely already contractors But why were they "already contractors"? Doesn't that beg the question?[1] Take a look at section 2.1 of the link I cited. Just based on the text alone, it's not obvious why that "self-employed" criteria doesn't apply to Uber. Yes, the courts are free to interpret beyond the literal text but there doesn't seem to be objective consistency to it. The traditional UK taxi companies and the other ride sharing apps all seem to be misclassifying workers. I'm not familiar with Hailo. Are you saying that a person who didn't drive a taxi before can't sign up on the Hailo platform and immediately offer their services? Did they have to be associated with a traditional taxi company first as prerequisite? In what situations would drivers prefer Hailo over Uber and vice versa? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question
  - sapphire_tomb 9y ago
    Hailo only works (in London at least, no idea if it operates elsewhere), with Tfl licensed "Black cab" drivers. You can't just decided to become one of those - you need to do years of training to pass the test (known as The Knowledge) in order to obtain your license.
    - jasode 9y ago
      >Tfl licensed [...] do years of training to pass the test Yes, I understand that but aren't those facts orthogonal to the status of "contractor"? If we try to integrate your facts, we would end up with a nonsensical decision tree: Choice 1: study for years to pass test and get Tfl license to _not_ earn minimum wage Choice 2: no test to pass and sign up for Uber to get a minimum wage (because of new ruling) Since the above makes no sense, that's why I believe it just muddies up the discussion about what truly designates somebody a "contractor".
      - vidarh 9y ago
        It is a distinction largely because you won't study to become a licensed taxi driver to only drive for Uber (or Hailo or whatever). You are right that it does not automatically make it difference, but in practice it means you're almost always dealing with drivers that are genuinely going to be taking jobs from more than one source (if nothing else by picking up clients kerb-side) because that is the main advantage of their license. Part of the argument in the judgement is that Uber in effect acts as the client, since their rules prevent the driver from interacting with the rider in a way a independent contractor would normally be ble to. That makes it all the more significant when Uber is often the only client. For someone like Hailo this would be less risky as the driver also works for many others most of the time, so even if Hailo was found to be the client rather than the individual riders, they could make the argument that to most their drivers they were just one of many clients. That Uber in "ideal" circumstances could have only signed up drivers that drive for many others too, or that Hailo in theory could have only signed up drivers that were only driving for them, isn't relevant when that's not how things have been in practice. EDIT: I'd very much like to hear arguments instead of downvotes, given that my comment is entirely factual. Downvoting doesn't change any of it.

by jasode 9y ago

kbart 9y ago

Just a nitpick, but Samsung is Korean company.

vidarh 9y ago

Hailo provided an ability for people who are largely already contractors an additional channel for bookings. The fact that these people are already operating a business and Hailo just provided an additional marketing and booking channel for them makes for a very different situation.

jasode 9y ago
>largely already contractors But why were they "already contractors"? Doesn't that beg the question?[1] Take a look at section 2.1 of the link I cited. Just based on the text alone, it's not obvious why that "self-employed" criteria doesn't apply to Uber. Yes, the courts are free to interpret beyond the literal text but there doesn't seem to be objective consistency to it. The traditional UK taxi companies and the other ride sharing apps all seem to be misclassifying workers. I'm not familiar with Hailo. Are you saying that a person who didn't drive a taxi before can't sign up on the Hailo platform and immediately offer their services? Did they have to be associated with a traditional taxi company first as prerequisite? In what situations would drivers prefer Hailo over Uber and vice versa? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question
- sapphire_tomb 9y ago
  Hailo only works (in London at least, no idea if it operates elsewhere), with Tfl licensed "Black cab" drivers. You can't just decided to become one of those - you need to do years of training to pass the test (known as The Knowledge) in order to obtain your license.
  - jasode 9y ago
    >Tfl licensed [...] do years of training to pass the test Yes, I understand that but aren't those facts orthogonal to the status of "contractor"? If we try to integrate your facts, we would end up with a nonsensical decision tree: Choice 1: study for years to pass test and get Tfl license to _not_ earn minimum wage Choice 2: no test to pass and sign up for Uber to get a minimum wage (because of new ruling) Since the above makes no sense, that's why I believe it just muddies up the discussion about what truly designates somebody a "contractor".
    - vidarh 9y ago
      It is a distinction largely because you won't study to become a licensed taxi driver to only drive for Uber (or Hailo or whatever). You are right that it does not automatically make it difference, but in practice it means you're almost always dealing with drivers that are genuinely going to be taking jobs from more than one source (if nothing else by picking up clients kerb-side) because that is the main advantage of their license. Part of the argument in the judgement is that Uber in effect acts as the client, since their rules prevent the driver from interacting with the rider in a way a independent contractor would normally be ble to. That makes it all the more significant when Uber is often the only client. For someone like Hailo this would be less risky as the driver also works for many others most of the time, so even if Hailo was found to be the client rather than the individual riders, they could make the argument that to most their drivers they were just one of many clients. That Uber in "ideal" circumstances could have only signed up drivers that drive for many others too, or that Hailo in theory could have only signed up drivers that were only driving for them, isn't relevant when that's not how things have been in practice. EDIT: I'd very much like to hear arguments instead of downvotes, given that my comment is entirely factual. Downvoting doesn't change any of it.