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Interesting. The thing that is most toxic about long-term survival in small towns is the lack of many jobs. No jobs, no mortgage payment, no point. Although i

Interesting. The thing that is most toxic about long-term survival in small towns is the lack of many jobs. No jobs, no mortgage payment, no point. Although if I was up for relocation right now, I'd look at Colorado (Denver/Boulder) or Baltimore...

analyst74 9y ago
yeah, it's a tough situation. People who are financially secure enough to not worry about having a job are not gonna be tempted by some small financial incentives; whereas people who may find those financial incentives appealing tend to need jobs to survive.
- wallace_f 9y ago
  What about people who want to work remote?
hirsin 9y ago
I think this is a case of standing on the mountain (SF) and everything else looking like a molehill. Yes, there are a thousand jobs opening a day in SF, but there are tens of thousands of applicants. I was recently in Oklahoma City for a JS conference (ThunderPlains), and there was no shortage of jobs. There was a shortage of devs though - the folks there felt very comfortable moving or losing jobs because there might only be a dozen jobs opening a day, but there were almost zero people applying.
- oh-kumudo 9y ago
  Jobs people compete to get are good jobs. The opposite is probably true as well. For those many years, one valuable lesson I learnt is, being a sheep and following other people, in a lot of cases, aren't optimal, but ROI is not bad. Being cynical might make oneself seem smart and level headed, but you can also miss valuable opportunity. Don't assume the crowd know the best, but when there are a lot of people, that often indicates it is where the money is at.
  - milankovic 9y ago
    That is some excellent advice. I agree wholeheartedly.
  - pnathan 9y ago
    I've learned that too. A careful examination might reveal other opportunities, but the swarm of people trying to optimize and coming to similar conclusions suggests that it's at least a local maxima within a fairly decently sized problem space.
- pnathan 9y ago
  I live in Seattle, and I come from rural areas. I'm happy that OKC has jobs. That's wonderful. No sarcasm. I'm glad to hear it. But it's not rural. :) OKC is a big city compared to everywhere I used to live. Where I am from most recently, there were 5 employers (in the tech field). Two universities. They were doing a lot of outsourcing. One engineering firm, which I worked for, which itself about 90% of all the local jobs. Then 2-3 smaller firms about 1/10 the size of the firm I worked for. I hear that there's another firm in town these days. Local pay was, after you did cost of living adjustments, about 30% under what you'd get elsewhere. New jobs that weren't in the big firm showed up about one-two a month, and a lot of that was skeevy MBA types wanting a startup. This was a big city compared to where I grew up, which had 1-2 web site consultancies, a very-much-not-software engineering firm, and a consultancy I never really looked at.
randomdata 9y ago
That is interesting to me, as the small towns I have spent time around have the opposite problem. They cannot find enough people for all the work. The numbers indicate that there are more jobs than people in the town I hale from. And, as it relates to the parent comment, a large section of the community is connected with symmetrical fibre and the entire community is slated to be in the next few years. The biggest challenge for economic development is getting the word out. It seems in my experience that people have it in their mind that cities are the only place you can find work, so they don't even bother looking for jobs elsewhere.
- Multicomp 9y ago
  So what town would this be if that's not too personal a question? Can't tell if the 'town you hail from' is the town you are currently in (then please ignore my question) or were previously (possibly raised) in.
- lotsofpulp 9y ago
  I doubt it. The problem is the pay in a small town doesn't make up for the lost opportunity due to networking and having a selection of varied employers and colleagues. Also, the pay would have to incorporate a risk premium in case you lose your job, as it is perceived that it will be harder to find a new one.
  - pnathan 9y ago
    > The problem is the pay in a small town doesn't make up for the lost opportunity due to networking and having a selection of varied employers and colleagues. Also, the pay would have to incorporate a risk premium in case you lose your job, as it is perceived that it will be harder to find a new one. Correct. There's no networking without working your arse off in those locales. And if there are only 3-4 employers in town, you better believe that you don't want to lose your job, ever. I can not recommend, in today's economy, a software engineer ever moving to a place without knowing there is an existing job creation engine running. It's too risky. On the other hand, I'd move to Detroit if the employer was willing to 100% financially derisk the move (full relo, golden parachute on departure for any reason, massive funding of retirement, massive pay). :)

analyst74 9y ago

yeah, it's a tough situation. People who are financially secure enough to not worry about having a job are not gonna be tempted by some small financial incentives; whereas people who may find those financial incentives appealing tend to need jobs to survive.

wallace_f 9y ago
What about people who want to work remote?

hirsin 9y ago

I think this is a case of standing on the mountain (SF) and everything else looking like a molehill. Yes, there are a thousand jobs opening a day in SF, but there are tens of thousands of applicants. I was recently in Oklahoma City for a JS conference (ThunderPlains), and there was no shortage of jobs. There was a shortage of devs though - the folks there felt very comfortable moving or losing jobs because there might only be a dozen jobs opening a day, but there were almost zero people applying.

oh-kumudo 9y ago
Jobs people compete to get are good jobs. The opposite is probably true as well. For those many years, one valuable lesson I learnt is, being a sheep and following other people, in a lot of cases, aren't optimal, but ROI is not bad. Being cynical might make oneself seem smart and level headed, but you can also miss valuable opportunity. Don't assume the crowd know the best, but when there are a lot of people, that often indicates it is where the money is at.
- milankovic 9y ago
  That is some excellent advice. I agree wholeheartedly.
- pnathan 9y ago
  I've learned that too. A careful examination might reveal other opportunities, but the swarm of people trying to optimize and coming to similar conclusions suggests that it's at least a local maxima within a fairly decently sized problem space.
pnathan 9y ago
I live in Seattle, and I come from rural areas. I'm happy that OKC has jobs. That's wonderful. No sarcasm. I'm glad to hear it. But it's not rural. :) OKC is a big city compared to everywhere I used to live. Where I am from most recently, there were 5 employers (in the tech field). Two universities. They were doing a lot of outsourcing. One engineering firm, which I worked for, which itself about 90% of all the local jobs. Then 2-3 smaller firms about 1/10 the size of the firm I worked for. I hear that there's another firm in town these days. Local pay was, after you did cost of living adjustments, about 30% under what you'd get elsewhere. New jobs that weren't in the big firm showed up about one-two a month, and a lot of that was skeevy MBA types wanting a startup. This was a big city compared to where I grew up, which had 1-2 web site consultancies, a very-much-not-software engineering firm, and a consultancy I never really looked at.

randomdata 9y ago

That is interesting to me, as the small towns I have spent time around have the opposite problem. They cannot find enough people for all the work. The numbers indicate that there are more jobs than people in the town I hale from. And, as it relates to the parent comment, a large section of the community is connected with symmetrical fibre and the entire community is slated to be in the next few years. The biggest challenge for economic development is getting the word out. It seems in my experience that people have it in their mind that cities are the only place you can find work, so they don't even bother looking for jobs elsewhere.

Multicomp 9y ago
So what town would this be if that's not too personal a question? Can't tell if the 'town you hail from' is the town you are currently in (then please ignore my question) or were previously (possibly raised) in.
lotsofpulp 9y ago
I doubt it. The problem is the pay in a small town doesn't make up for the lost opportunity due to networking and having a selection of varied employers and colleagues. Also, the pay would have to incorporate a risk premium in case you lose your job, as it is perceived that it will be harder to find a new one.
- pnathan 9y ago
  > The problem is the pay in a small town doesn't make up for the lost opportunity due to networking and having a selection of varied employers and colleagues. Also, the pay would have to incorporate a risk premium in case you lose your job, as it is perceived that it will be harder to find a new one. Correct. There's no networking without working your arse off in those locales. And if there are only 3-4 employers in town, you better believe that you don't want to lose your job, ever. I can not recommend, in today's economy, a software engineer ever moving to a place without knowing there is an existing job creation engine running. It's too risky. On the other hand, I'd move to Detroit if the employer was willing to 100% financially derisk the move (full relo, golden parachute on departure for any reason, massive funding of retirement, massive pay). :)