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Legal pot in 100 days? New Jersey's next governor aims for national first
- chrisabrams 9y agoAs a NJ resident, I've been curious to see what the next Governor would do to fix the broke state's budget. Interesting this article doesn't discuss the economic benefit that would result from it. Right now state & local taxes are just being raised each year instead.
- ch4s3 9y agoThere are probably diminishing returns to legalization + taxation as novelty wears off and neighboring states follow suit.
- pdxgene 9y agoHow would neighboring states' follow-on legalization diminish tax returns over time? Washington has posted $280 million in tax revenues so far, and Oregon $85 million. Neither seems to threaten the other -- demand is pretty much ubiquitous.
- ssharp 9y agoIf NJ doesn't require a NJ ID in order to buy in-state, the differences are huge. NJ is in a much denser area than Washington, Oregon, or Colorado. Boston, DC, Philadelphia, and Baltimore are all reasonable drives away and NYC is right next door.
- chrisabrams 9y agoIt would be quite ironic for NJ to pass it, and watch my NYC friends who said they would "never visit Jersey" all the sudden find a reason to come...
- simplicio 9y agoI know the Netherlands has had issues with drug tourism after their legalization efforts. I wonder if Jersey won't have similar issues. Other states that have legalized have been protected from this by geography, but Jersey City is smack in the middle of a gigantic greater metropolitan area and mass transit system that spans multiple states. But the plan is to delay actual legalization till 2019 (the Gov just wants the legislation passed in his first 100 days), so presumably they're conscious that legalization will bring about a bunch of logistic issues like this that need to be worked out.
- bradleyjg 9y agoAmsterdam and Jersey City aren't really similarly situated. Drug tourism comes with some problems, and if you can get beautiful canals, the Dutch Masters, and Anne Frank House tourists instead you'd much prefer those. But if that's not an option drug tourism is probably better than nothing. If not to JC, which is gentrifying rapidly, then certainly to Newark which is just a couple of stops further on the PATH.
- dec0dedab0de 9y agoBoston, DC, Philadelphia, and Baltimore are all reasonable drives away and NYC is right next door. not to nitpick, but Philadelphia is just as close as NYC (maybe even closer) I routinely joke that Philadelphia and NYC are part of New Jersey, usually to upset citizens of said cities. Then I point out that the culture in those cities is much more like NJ than the rest of their own states.
- SmellTheGlove 9y agoI grew up in NJ - I'd do the same thing to rile people up, but deep down I knew: South Jersey is part of Philly, and anything north of Mercer Co is basically NY. Except for the shore counties - they hate all of us equally. So I consider them to be New Yorkers out of spite.
- dec0dedab0de 9y agoMost of the "hate" is just as superficial as programmers teasing people that use other languages, or sysadmins trash talking other operating systems. I can see the Walt Whitman bridge from the end of my road, and I have made friends with plenty of people from North, and Central Jersey. ...Another fun one is to pretend that Central Jersey doesn't exist, or to claim to be a proud Shoobie (or Benny) to the shore people :-)
- SmellTheGlove 9y agoTotally. Jersey Pride is actually a unifying force. Kind of like how we all pretend to not like Seaside and Wildwood.
- travmatt 9y agoLegality aside, it would seem pointless to drive to another state to purchase a similar product for marginally less money than available to you locally.
- inuhj 9y agoMany cannabis products aren't possible to produce without a legal framework. Say you want a consistently dosed 5mg edible. Does your state have a robust cannabis oil extraction and distillation infrastructure? Does it have rapid, reliable testing to quantify dosage? Probably not. Maybe you prefer a live resin extract produced from fresh cut flower. You need to have refrigerated trucks in the field when you harvest, a -20C refrigerated room for product storage, and a processing lab. This kind of product is highly sought after but rare in the black market. There's as much depth to the cannabis industry as there is to alcohol, tobacco, or food. It just wasn't clear to people when all they could purchase was the equivalent of moonshine.
- kevin_thibedeau 9y agoNew Jersey does have the country's only coca leaf processor. They know how to handle shipments and regulation of controlled substances.
- megaman22 9y agoPeople do it all the time. The NH state liquor stores do an incredible amount of out-of-state business. And even more more mundane purchases, the arbitrage in sales tax is significant enough that many people plan around trips to NH to buy bigger-ticket items. http://wealthalchemyblog.com/2012/10/taxes-matter-14-cross-border-shopping-and-liquor/#sthash.CQEKYX4D.dpbs http://wealthalchemyblog.com/2012/10/taxes-matter-14-cross-b...
- travmatt 9y agoThat was a great article, I knew states competed in attracting businesses, I didn’t realize retail competition would be so large as well.
- starlust2 9y agoThe largest grossing pot store in WA state, prior to legalization in OR, wasn't in the states largest city of Seattle. It was located in Vancouver, just a few miles from Portland. There is definitely a benefit to being the first mover in a region. You are correct that states will still see significant tax revenues and jobs that persist.
- rconti 9y agoRight, because Seattle probably had lots of smaller neighborhood shops, whereas the "destination" shops in Vancouver were likely bigger and closer to the freeway. Not that Vancouver doesn't have a decently-sized population in its own right, but it only stands to reason that the smaller city would have fewer, busier shops serving tourists from across the river.
- SmellTheGlove 9y agoSeattle didn't though, largely because licensing was completely bottlenecked. The city itself took a while to permit more than a handful of shops. I don't know the numbers, but given that Seattle is a bigger city than Portland, I wonder what the data normalized to shops per capita - hypothetically considering Vancouver to be part of Portland, as it probably would be if there wasn't a state line in the way!
- rconti 9y agoAh, I didn't realize that. I've been away for a number of years, and on my last visit, there were already quite a few.
- SmellTheGlove 9y agoI'm not a Seattle resident, so I could be way off, but it was something I went out of my way to observe. We were spending a week every summer in Seattle, and Washington had legalized while my home state of Maine was debating it. I remember in 2015, licensing was still an issue in Seattle and there were like ~3 dispensaries in the city, none of them downtown. I think there was one down in the ID, one a bit north, but nothing centrally located. Then in 2016 there were at least a couple that popped up closer in. I tend to think that cannabis is pretty harmless for adults and I voted for legalization in Maine, but I'm okay with a slow rollout. There's a whole generation of folks out there that think the stuff makes you crazy, so there's some benefit to slow uptake.
- wcchandler 9y agoThis is what a lot of people miss. There isn’t much of a “honeymoon” period to cannabis legalization. There’s already a LOT of people consuming illegally right now. They will buy it through legal means in due time. They will still continue consuming. And there’s a LOT of users. It’s a pretty well established, stable market once the customer starts buying.
- jweir 9y agoThis is not just the sale. There is a whole industry behind pot. I know lawyers, architects, energy managers, etc working now in the weed industry. It is big business. This transcendes simply sales. And NJ would be regional leader. And perhaps reduce some prison costs if NJ has many pot offenders.
- JohnTHaller 9y agoBut then we'll likely wind up with people using less opioids and 25% fewer deaths due to opioid overdose like we've seen elsewhere and won't someone think of the poor pharmaceutical companies? /s
- ccorda 9y agoFor context, there was a study published three weeks ago observing that opioid overdoes fatalities are down in Colorado since they legalized recreational marijuana: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/10/16/legal-marijuana-is-saving-lives-in-colorado-study-finds/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/10/16/legal...
- djhworld 9y agoHas there been any studies on this? I'm under the impression that opoids are much stronger than cannabis, would people who take them be able to wean off them onto cannabis based products?
- SmellTheGlove 9y agoI agree, worth studying, but probably difficult to compare across the board. You'd probably need to identify groups with the same kind of pain and study those individual groups. But right now, is there all that much on the market between opioids and NSAIDs? Cannabis would at least provide an additional method of action, and maybe they go with what works best for the specific pain or patient.
- zaroth 9y agoOpioids are absolutely stronger. Marijuana provides a previously unavailable mid-tier level of pain control where a lot of people who didn't want to be taking opioids now have a better option.
- tpkj 9y agoER Visits for Kids Rise Significantly After Pot Legalized in Colorado https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/er-visits-kids-rise-significantly-after-pot-legalized-colorado-n754781 https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/er-visits-kids-ri...
- adventured 9y agoIt looks very unlikely the anti-drug brigade is going to be able to stop the spread of this nationally at this point. I think NJ will make nine legal states, more will legalize at a faster clip. The Trump Administration appears to be coasting (neither helping nor meaningfully hindering) as far as legalization is concerned, and the Republicans look set to drop the Senate (even despite the up-for-election imbalance). It's going to accomplish a ton of things simultaneously. - Substantially reduce arrests, prison sentences, and our general prison / jail population over time. - Provide another good option for pain management to millions of people. Something we desperately need right now. - Reduce general crime. - Weaken the cartels. - Increase tax revenue and employment by normalizing an industry worth tens of billions annually. The US should eventually become a major marijuana exporter as many other countries gradually legalize. - Break the back of the war on drugs and change the culture more broadly (this is already well underway, as so many middle class voters are seeing the vast destruction of the opioid crisis, which is educating people on needing to treat addiction as a health problem while simultaneously demonstrating how relatively safe marijuana is by comparison).
- jrowley 9y agoInteresting points, especially about the culture change. I really hope that with the legalization, there is going to be a push for better education about marijuana. Right now broadly speaking it's pretty binary, "pot is a gateway drug, etc" and "weed can do no harm". I'm a regular user myself, and have some understanding of the associated risks. So I think we might see a small but non trivial increase psychiatric disorders in young men in particular after legalization. Cannabis is already considered a risk factor if you have schizophrenia in your family [0]. The other thing I'm concerned about, besides the psychoactive effects, is lung health. Anecdotally the smoke doesn't seem as bad as cigarette, but regular (non oral) use can't be great for your lungs, pulmonary disorders are nothing to mess with. Either way legalization should be lead us to a better world - I just can't wait for research to become easier so we can get some more concrete answers. 0. https://academic.oup.com/hmg/article-abstract/26/13/2462/3574683?redirectedFrom=fulltext https://academic.oup.com/hmg/article-abstract/26/13/2462/357...
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- SauciestGNU 9y agoI hope the bill that gets passed allows for home cultivation. Previous versions did not, and it would be a shame if business interests were able to monopolize the supply chain in the state.
- murph-almighty 9y agoNJ resident and I believe that's still the case. I'm planning on writing my assemblypeople and the governor's office come January.
- southphillyman 9y agoIf they can make it happen might as well raise toll rates too. I could see a lot of "day visitors" streaming in from NYC and Philadelphia
- dsfyu404ed 9y agoYup. Raise the tolls. Make some high priced toll only lanes while you're at it. God forbid people prefer to sit in traffic on a bridge in order to spend their money in your state. Regressive taxation is always a net win for society. (the massive amount of sarcasm should be obvious) Seriously, other than a few extra dollars in the short term and making the roads less crowded for those who have the money to justify their value proposition what is the befit of raising tolls? I can understand if you want to basically levy a tax on tourism but levying a tax on people showing up to buy stuff doesn't seem smart.
- 24gttghh 9y ago>I can understand if you want to basically levy a tax on tourism but levying a tax on people showing up to buy stuff doesn't seem smart. You mean, like a sales tax?
- lightbyte 9y agoYes, like a sales tax. That is an extremely regressive tax and should be removed.
- 24gttghh 9y agoI think whether or not it is regressive depends on the context. A flat tax (perhaps an even steeper on than generally exists currently) on goods purchased might help to curb consumption/consumerism that is destroying our environment. That's one context. How should a government tasked with regulating commerce seek to fund such endeavors otherwise? I'm not baiting; I really don't know.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- vthallam 9y agoThis will definitely force New York and Penn to look for legalization. New York if followed would be the biggest city ever to legalize.
- beager 9y agoI wonder if the five boroughs would (or could) move before the state. My sense is that the state is holding out because of strong police and corrections lobbies, and Cuomo is trying to not rock the boat. But NYC may have different motivations to decriminalize/legalize sooner. And if NJ legalizes, NYC becomes full of marijuana very quickly.
- x502 9y agoNYC is already very full of marijuana
- hendersoon 9y agoSure, but there's a huge perceptual leap between getting weed surreptitiously delivered by some dude with a backpack you contact on Signal with an entire illegal supply chain stretching down the corridor to Florida and ultimately funding god only knows what sorts of unsavory enterprise up the line and asking your coworker to pick up an eighth for you on his way in commuting on the NJ transit train. Both routes are illegal, but in one you're clearly acting shifty.
- pezdeath 9y agoNYC is basically decriminalized at least from a usage standpoint. Walk through Brooklyn or Manhattan at any hour of the day and you will smell week multiple times on each block. There are delivery services advertising via craigslist
- rrhd 9y ago> his Tuesday win makes a Democrat-packed statehouse the only obstacle. They aren't an obstacle. They wanted it done and Christie was the obstacle.
- Fej 9y agoNormally this is where I'd expect to see "HN is turning into reddit", but hackers have always been interested in pot, so... (reminds me of Pirates of Silicon Valley)