23 ms·

Just the other morning I got off of bart in downtown Oakland, 12th street and there was a guy just laid out, unresponsive right on the steps outside the station

Just the other morning I got off of bart in downtown Oakland, 12th street and there was a guy just laid out, unresponsive right on the steps outside the station. He had smoked something out of a can. I stuck with the guy while the paramedics came, but the most tragic part was that he had a plastic "No Allergies" bracelet on. When the paramedics took off his shirt he still had adhesive on his skin from the EKG straps or what not. So he had gotten out of the hospital and then immediately ODed (presumably again). I'm not sure what we need to do, but if you haven't encountered the epidemic first hand, it's only a matter of time until you do.

nathancahill 9y ago
Yep. My uncle died from an OD earlier this year. Drugs cut with fentanyl. It's truly a terrible epidemic.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- TaylorGood 9y ago
  Sorry to hear. Partaking in heavy drugs to any degree invites those dark unknowns. The number of hands these drugs pass through to reach the end-user is more than a couple. I recall on average it's 8 different turnovers. Each time, likely being cut down. They operate a margin business without concern for where it ends up. It's likely safe to say that a vast majority of drugs are cut these days. A friend I grew up with just shot himself to death. He was on a TV show, model and had it all going for him..until the night he tried black tar heroin through a needle, off a spoon. An older friend convinced him and four others to try it one night at a wrap party for the TV show. Grew up affluent but drugs immediately nosedived his life. Ended up in and out of jail, losing it mentally, mental institutions, broke every window at his parents house, just living a really rough existence. The part that got me: the older friend who introduced him to it showed up to his funeral. The other one of the four is on his third strike for heroin, just got his second DUI trying to "live it up" – drugs i.e. heavy drugs, are a game that you do not win.
  - jstarfish 9y ago
    > Sorry to hear. Partaking in heavy drugs to any degree invites those dark unknowns. The number of hands these drugs pass through to reach the end-user is more than a couple. I recall on average it's 8 different turnovers. Each time, likely being cut down. They operate a margin business without concern for where it ends up. It's likely safe to say that a vast majority of drugs are cut these days. Drugs have always been cut. Historically it was just cut with OTCs or detritus, which was a problem that could be solved in most cases by simply doing more. The problem as of late has become when they lace it with things like fentanyl, which is a cheap filler that actually improves the high (thus encouraging repeat business) but can be lethal in large doses.
    - Maarius 9y ago
      Unfortunately "larger doses" in terms of Fentanyl is not that much: https://www.statnews.com/2016/09/29/fentanyl-heroin-photo-fatal-doses/ https://www.statnews.com/2016/09/29/fentanyl-heroin-photo-fa...
    - BenchRouter 9y ago
      > Historically it was just cut with OTCs or detritus, which was a problem that could be solved in most cases by simply doing more. Well, until you get a more pure batch and you try to do the same amount you do with the dilute batch.
      - toyg 9y ago
        This is how prohibition is killing people: by removing any sort of quality control for the customer. You can die by drinking bad wine or eating contaminated food, but we have processes and laws that make sure wine is done properly and food is not contaminated, so the consumer knows that, when she buys pasta, it's going to be pasta, not a bunch of random chemicals that look like pasta and might taste somewhat like pasta. Can you imagine buying unlabeled pasta from a shady guy in an industrial estate near a plant manufacturing yellow plastic? That's what buying drugs is today, thanks to prohibition.
  - 9y ago
- deleted 9y ago
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sillysaurus3 9y ago
[removed]
- ghrifter 9y ago
  what the fuck are you on about? wrong thread?
  - sillysaurus3 9y ago
    Actually, I'm trying to have a nuanced conversation on a sensitive topic with an open mind. I get the feeling this is one of the things that no one wants to discuss, or at least it's a bad idea to try to discuss it. Note how violent and immediate the reaction was, right when I tried to point to a segment of people who are the most likely to be in the target segment of the original article. I don't feel like martyring myself, so I won't push it further. But suffice to say, it does not seem like we as a society are ready to have hard conversations about why people turn to drugs.
    - daxorid 9y ago
      When the status gap is large enough, high status people don't see low status people as human. Very few people on HN will care about incels killing themselves. Suicide hotlines and rehab clinics are for their status peers fallen on hard times, not the filthy incel underclass who dare act above their station.
      - gooseus 9y ago
        I invite you to post the best example of this incel subculture. These are the guys who were elevating Elliot Roger (UCSB killer) to hero status, no?
        sillysaurus3 9y ago
        The subthread wasn't about that, though. It was about the fact that they might turn to drugs because their group is now banned. That's a weak hypothesis not supported by evidence, so it was stupid to bring it up. But given their situation, it didn't seem too far from the truth.
andrei_says_ 9y ago
I recently re-read the story about the rat park experiment. http://www.stuartmcmillen.com/comic/rat-park/ http://www.stuartmcmillen.com/comic/rat-park/ The gist of it is that yes, rats do get addicted to morphine and prefer it to food, but only if kept in cages. The rats living in a much less confined space with other rats, allowed to play, nest, have sex and do pretty much all the rat fun things not only did not get addicted to morphine but even waned themselves off of it. Speaks a lot to the causes which this epidemic is a symptom of and makes me think that addressing it will not be an easy or quick process.
- btown 9y ago
  Something I often think about is whether having a job - the agency to by one's own hand change one's prospects in life, to "provide for one's family" - is our equivalent of this "less confined space." In a post-automation post-scarcity world, despite boundless entertainment and resources (things that would make rats perfectly happy)... would ennui still drive people towards self-destructive behavior? And in fact, would the optimization of that entertainment (see: usedopamine.com ) actually prime people's brains towards addiction, towards whatever form the next opioid epidemic might take? We understand so little about our own minds and how they might respond to the world we are ushering in.
  - miketery 9y ago
    Post scarcity? Where, when, and for who? Our current economic models don't work for that unfortunately. Edit: I should add there are a couple post scarcity instances in recent history. Establishment of America, and post WW2. These also coincided with the least income inequality. But those periods don't last.
    - gizmo686 9y ago
      In what ways were the Establishment of America, and post WW2 post scarcity? US inflation adjusted per capita GDP is higher today than at either of those times. While I do not think GDP is a great metric, I cannot think of any metric where we, as a society, have less "stuff" to go around then before.
peterwwillis 9y ago
> I'm not sure what we need to do Fund recovery centers and programs to rehabilitate users and provide them with ongoing assistance so they can get by and stop using. Most addicts who come out of prison say this because they know they will immediately relapse.
oliwarner 9y ago
Opiate ODs are given naloxone in hospital. It's really effective but they feel like shit. If it's still in their system when they leave, and they try to use, they're more likely to double-dose to get the feeling back. The problem with opiates (esp in the US) is they ones that are available are too strong and completely unforgiving. Fentanyl is an elephant gun but it's supplanting heroin on streets due to its prevalence (through overuse). You've got to wonder what a regulated generally-available recreational opiate could do for street safety. It's not just about making sure of the purity, we need help people take the right dose of the right things, so they're not just taking however much of whatever is available. That, and weaning. I'm sure a lot of these people would prefer not to feel like they do. Quitting opiates cold turkey is not easy.
- krisives 9y ago
  That sounds like a really complicated issue without a clear solution and no benefit to whoever solves it. By comparison I think it would be easier to make a self driving car or automated robot that does most of what a heroin addict does. Sounds terrible don’t care I’m out of sympathy for addicts in society.
  - oliwarner 9y ago
    I think what is becoming clear now is that not all opiate addicts are recreational users. Many are victims of inappropriate prescriptions and lack of follow-up and supervision.
    - krisives 9y ago
      For how long though? Having watched it first hand you can make whatever excuse you want for the first use, bad boyfriend, pharma industry, etc. My sister has been on heroin for probably 8 years now. She will call and ask for money and if anyone says no she spouts this same bullshit about it's not her fault etc. and she's an addict. We send her to rehab, she runs away, can't even tell you how many times I've seen it. Her 4 kids are taken away from her she doesn't even attempt to visit them in any capacity. Look close enough at a heroin addict you'll find a regular shitty person underneath it.
kakarot 9y ago
> the most tragic part was that he had a plastic "No Allergies" bracelet on. Oh my god. I bet you had to stifle tears at this point. It sounds like something you would see in a movie, with the last cut of the scene slowly bringing the bracelet into focus just long enough for you to realize why he was wearing it.
- jrowley 9y ago
  It is all relative I suppose, but I think it's a reflection on a serious issue plaguing society, if you don't care about the guy, as a technical person you have to say it's a tragic waste of public resources to repeatedly admit someone to ER when they should in a treatment program.

nathancahill 9y ago

Yep. My uncle died from an OD earlier this year. Drugs cut with fentanyl. It's truly a terrible epidemic.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
TaylorGood 9y ago
Sorry to hear. Partaking in heavy drugs to any degree invites those dark unknowns. The number of hands these drugs pass through to reach the end-user is more than a couple. I recall on average it's 8 different turnovers. Each time, likely being cut down. They operate a margin business without concern for where it ends up. It's likely safe to say that a vast majority of drugs are cut these days. A friend I grew up with just shot himself to death. He was on a TV show, model and had it all going for him..until the night he tried black tar heroin through a needle, off a spoon. An older friend convinced him and four others to try it one night at a wrap party for the TV show. Grew up affluent but drugs immediately nosedived his life. Ended up in and out of jail, losing it mentally, mental institutions, broke every window at his parents house, just living a really rough existence. The part that got me: the older friend who introduced him to it showed up to his funeral. The other one of the four is on his third strike for heroin, just got his second DUI trying to "live it up" – drugs i.e. heavy drugs, are a game that you do not win.
- jstarfish 9y ago
  > Sorry to hear. Partaking in heavy drugs to any degree invites those dark unknowns. The number of hands these drugs pass through to reach the end-user is more than a couple. I recall on average it's 8 different turnovers. Each time, likely being cut down. They operate a margin business without concern for where it ends up. It's likely safe to say that a vast majority of drugs are cut these days. Drugs have always been cut. Historically it was just cut with OTCs or detritus, which was a problem that could be solved in most cases by simply doing more. The problem as of late has become when they lace it with things like fentanyl, which is a cheap filler that actually improves the high (thus encouraging repeat business) but can be lethal in large doses.
  - Maarius 9y ago
    Unfortunately "larger doses" in terms of Fentanyl is not that much: https://www.statnews.com/2016/09/29/fentanyl-heroin-photo-fatal-doses/ https://www.statnews.com/2016/09/29/fentanyl-heroin-photo-fa...
  - BenchRouter 9y ago
    > Historically it was just cut with OTCs or detritus, which was a problem that could be solved in most cases by simply doing more. Well, until you get a more pure batch and you try to do the same amount you do with the dilute batch.
    - toyg 9y ago
      This is how prohibition is killing people: by removing any sort of quality control for the customer. You can die by drinking bad wine or eating contaminated food, but we have processes and laws that make sure wine is done properly and food is not contaminated, so the consumer knows that, when she buys pasta, it's going to be pasta, not a bunch of random chemicals that look like pasta and might taste somewhat like pasta. Can you imagine buying unlabeled pasta from a shady guy in an industrial estate near a plant manufacturing yellow plastic? That's what buying drugs is today, thanks to prohibition.
- 9y ago
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

sillysaurus3 9y ago

[removed]

ghrifter 9y ago
what the fuck are you on about? wrong thread?
- sillysaurus3 9y ago
  Actually, I'm trying to have a nuanced conversation on a sensitive topic with an open mind. I get the feeling this is one of the things that no one wants to discuss, or at least it's a bad idea to try to discuss it. Note how violent and immediate the reaction was, right when I tried to point to a segment of people who are the most likely to be in the target segment of the original article. I don't feel like martyring myself, so I won't push it further. But suffice to say, it does not seem like we as a society are ready to have hard conversations about why people turn to drugs.
  - daxorid 9y ago
    When the status gap is large enough, high status people don't see low status people as human. Very few people on HN will care about incels killing themselves. Suicide hotlines and rehab clinics are for their status peers fallen on hard times, not the filthy incel underclass who dare act above their station.
    - gooseus 9y ago
      I invite you to post the best example of this incel subculture. These are the guys who were elevating Elliot Roger (UCSB killer) to hero status, no?
      - sillysaurus3 9y ago
        The subthread wasn't about that, though. It was about the fact that they might turn to drugs because their group is now banned. That's a weak hypothesis not supported by evidence, so it was stupid to bring it up. But given their situation, it didn't seem too far from the truth.

andrei_says_ 9y ago

I recently re-read the story about the rat park experiment. http://www.stuartmcmillen.com/comic/rat-park/ http://www.stuartmcmillen.com/comic/rat-park/ The gist of it is that yes, rats do get addicted to morphine and prefer it to food, but only if kept in cages. The rats living in a much less confined space with other rats, allowed to play, nest, have sex and do pretty much all the rat fun things not only did not get addicted to morphine but even waned themselves off of it. Speaks a lot to the causes which this epidemic is a symptom of and makes me think that addressing it will not be an easy or quick process.

btown 9y ago
Something I often think about is whether having a job - the agency to by one's own hand change one's prospects in life, to "provide for one's family" - is our equivalent of this "less confined space." In a post-automation post-scarcity world, despite boundless entertainment and resources (things that would make rats perfectly happy)... would ennui still drive people towards self-destructive behavior? And in fact, would the optimization of that entertainment (see: usedopamine.com ) actually prime people's brains towards addiction, towards whatever form the next opioid epidemic might take? We understand so little about our own minds and how they might respond to the world we are ushering in.
- miketery 9y ago
  Post scarcity? Where, when, and for who? Our current economic models don't work for that unfortunately. Edit: I should add there are a couple post scarcity instances in recent history. Establishment of America, and post WW2. These also coincided with the least income inequality. But those periods don't last.
  - gizmo686 9y ago
    In what ways were the Establishment of America, and post WW2 post scarcity? US inflation adjusted per capita GDP is higher today than at either of those times. While I do not think GDP is a great metric, I cannot think of any metric where we, as a society, have less "stuff" to go around then before.

peterwwillis 9y ago

> I'm not sure what we need to do Fund recovery centers and programs to rehabilitate users and provide them with ongoing assistance so they can get by and stop using. Most addicts who come out of prison say this because they know they will immediately relapse.

oliwarner 9y ago

Opiate ODs are given naloxone in hospital. It's really effective but they feel like shit. If it's still in their system when they leave, and they try to use, they're more likely to double-dose to get the feeling back. The problem with opiates (esp in the US) is they ones that are available are too strong and completely unforgiving. Fentanyl is an elephant gun but it's supplanting heroin on streets due to its prevalence (through overuse). You've got to wonder what a regulated generally-available recreational opiate could do for street safety. It's not just about making sure of the purity, we need help people take the right dose of the right things, so they're not just taking however much of whatever is available. That, and weaning. I'm sure a lot of these people would prefer not to feel like they do. Quitting opiates cold turkey is not easy.

krisives 9y ago
That sounds like a really complicated issue without a clear solution and no benefit to whoever solves it. By comparison I think it would be easier to make a self driving car or automated robot that does most of what a heroin addict does. Sounds terrible don’t care I’m out of sympathy for addicts in society.
- oliwarner 9y ago
  I think what is becoming clear now is that not all opiate addicts are recreational users. Many are victims of inappropriate prescriptions and lack of follow-up and supervision.
  - krisives 9y ago
    For how long though? Having watched it first hand you can make whatever excuse you want for the first use, bad boyfriend, pharma industry, etc. My sister has been on heroin for probably 8 years now. She will call and ask for money and if anyone says no she spouts this same bullshit about it's not her fault etc. and she's an addict. We send her to rehab, she runs away, can't even tell you how many times I've seen it. Her 4 kids are taken away from her she doesn't even attempt to visit them in any capacity. Look close enough at a heroin addict you'll find a regular shitty person underneath it.

kakarot 9y ago

> the most tragic part was that he had a plastic "No Allergies" bracelet on. Oh my god. I bet you had to stifle tears at this point. It sounds like something you would see in a movie, with the last cut of the scene slowly bringing the bracelet into focus just long enough for you to realize why he was wearing it.

jrowley 9y ago
It is all relative I suppose, but I think it's a reflection on a serious issue plaguing society, if you don't care about the guy, as a technical person you have to say it's a tragic waste of public resources to repeatedly admit someone to ER when they should in a treatment program.