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Happy to answer any questions you have! It's all of our job to be transparent about the new tablestakes of design, because that transparency builds exact dialog

Happy to answer any questions you have! It's all of our job to be transparent about the new tablestakes of design, because that transparency builds exact dialogues like this! It would be more audacious if we didn't publicize what we're doing and these techniques remained the dark patterns that keep people hooked to social apps that have poor alignment to what people actually want out of life!

s17n 9y ago
That's great but what is really needed is litigation/legislation.
- cgmg 9y ago
  Why? On what basis?
  - intended 9y ago
    Because this is not a code problem. It is inherently a people problem. The issue is simply that any fix (by code or by competition), will only move the conflict point from its current location to a new place on the board. Without being able to approach the bad actors and their motivations/incentives directly, you will not be able to effect change. And there is always going to be an incentive to manipulate minds, easily and at scale.
  - s17n 9y ago
    Because the industry is deliberately creating addictive products that happen to be detrimental to the health of the people who use them. Facebook is the biggest offender but any time you hear the term "engagement", that's probably what is going on. This isn't just going to go away, it has to be fought.
nerdponx 9y ago
This is how I understand what you're saying: We are building something evil and reprehensible, but we are open about what we are building, and therefore we are better than the other guys who are doing it surreptitiously. Fine, but in that case your product is basically performance art. Bravo, you did a good job raising awareness: now go actually work on fixing the problem instead of pretending like you aren't part of it.
- speedplane 9y ago
  Making games more addictive is not really all that "evil" or "reprehensible". It's not much different from making them more fun. What does need work is their messaging. Suggesting they can control users does not sit well. Instead, they could suggest they make games so much more fun, users boost in-game time. They need a lesson on marketing and messaging, the idea itself is fine.
  - PhasmaFelis 9y ago
    > It's not much different from making them more fun. I've played quite a few games that were addictive but not fun. The difference is hard to spot when you're in the middle of it, but stark from the outside. Typically they start off being plain fun to draw you in, and then gradually segue into addictive after a few hours to keep you there.
    - speedplane 9y ago
      Addictive games are often fun, I didn't say necessarily fun. But that wasn't my point. My point is that it's not terribly evil to make a game addictive. Addictive qualities are only bad to the extent that the addictive thing hurts you (e.g., smoking, drugs). These games are all pretty harmless.
      - nerdponx 9y ago
        No, addiction is never harmless. If you have never been addicted to anything, it is difficult to empathize or understand. That doesn't mean it is wrong for a game to become addicting because it is so damn fun it just happens to become addicting. What is beyond despicable to me is to create a game that deliberately manipulates the human mind to become addicting without being of any real value. If nothing else, it's a matter of opportunity cost. You are stealing attention away from hobbies, friends, family, and more likely, more wholesome forms of entertainment, possibly even more intelligent video games. Through in-app purchases you are funneling people's income from their bank accounts to yours and your employees'. This is fine when people are making a choice to waste their resources, but when you take people's choice away by addicting them, then you are effectively enslaving them.
intended 9y ago
I think these guys need to amp the “evil” up a lot more. It’s the perfect media juncture to do it- force the conversation with obvious names, have fun with the media, and in so doing carry out the public service of shining the brightest light on the darkest spots. And it’s not like anything is illegal. People need to be horrified before they react and then figure out exactly what is acceptable and what is not. But the whole IT industry itself seems to be in desperate need of a code of ethics and behavior. These guys can always just dodge by pointing out that they are hardly the worst fish in the sea. Just the most self aware and well labeled.

s17n 9y ago

That's great but what is really needed is litigation/legislation.

cgmg 9y ago
Why? On what basis?
- intended 9y ago
  Because this is not a code problem. It is inherently a people problem. The issue is simply that any fix (by code or by competition), will only move the conflict point from its current location to a new place on the board. Without being able to approach the bad actors and their motivations/incentives directly, you will not be able to effect change. And there is always going to be an incentive to manipulate minds, easily and at scale.
- s17n 9y ago
  Because the industry is deliberately creating addictive products that happen to be detrimental to the health of the people who use them. Facebook is the biggest offender but any time you hear the term "engagement", that's probably what is going on. This isn't just going to go away, it has to be fought.

nerdponx 9y ago

This is how I understand what you're saying: We are building something evil and reprehensible, but we are open about what we are building, and therefore we are better than the other guys who are doing it surreptitiously. Fine, but in that case your product is basically performance art. Bravo, you did a good job raising awareness: now go actually work on fixing the problem instead of pretending like you aren't part of it.

speedplane 9y ago
Making games more addictive is not really all that "evil" or "reprehensible". It's not much different from making them more fun. What does need work is their messaging. Suggesting they can control users does not sit well. Instead, they could suggest they make games so much more fun, users boost in-game time. They need a lesson on marketing and messaging, the idea itself is fine.
- PhasmaFelis 9y ago
  > It's not much different from making them more fun. I've played quite a few games that were addictive but not fun. The difference is hard to spot when you're in the middle of it, but stark from the outside. Typically they start off being plain fun to draw you in, and then gradually segue into addictive after a few hours to keep you there.
  - speedplane 9y ago
    Addictive games are often fun, I didn't say necessarily fun. But that wasn't my point. My point is that it's not terribly evil to make a game addictive. Addictive qualities are only bad to the extent that the addictive thing hurts you (e.g., smoking, drugs). These games are all pretty harmless.
    - nerdponx 9y ago
      No, addiction is never harmless. If you have never been addicted to anything, it is difficult to empathize or understand. That doesn't mean it is wrong for a game to become addicting because it is so damn fun it just happens to become addicting. What is beyond despicable to me is to create a game that deliberately manipulates the human mind to become addicting without being of any real value. If nothing else, it's a matter of opportunity cost. You are stealing attention away from hobbies, friends, family, and more likely, more wholesome forms of entertainment, possibly even more intelligent video games. Through in-app purchases you are funneling people's income from their bank accounts to yours and your employees'. This is fine when people are making a choice to waste their resources, but when you take people's choice away by addicting them, then you are effectively enslaving them.

intended 9y ago

I think these guys need to amp the “evil” up a lot more. It’s the perfect media juncture to do it- force the conversation with obvious names, have fun with the media, and in so doing carry out the public service of shining the brightest light on the darkest spots. And it’s not like anything is illegal. People need to be horrified before they react and then figure out exactly what is acceptable and what is not. But the whole IT industry itself seems to be in desperate need of a code of ethics and behavior. These guys can always just dodge by pointing out that they are hardly the worst fish in the sea. Just the most self aware and well labeled.