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We get these claims with every new release of iPhones, but each time sales are as good or better. What does worry me a bit about Apple of today vs Apple before

We get these claims with every new release of iPhones, but each time sales are as good or better. What does worry me a bit about Apple of today vs Apple before Jobs passed away, is that they seem to be to quick to compromise design when they are face with difficult engineering problems. For example the camera sticking out and the iPhone X screen notch.

manuelflara 9y ago
I think exactly the same way. I'm not sure if Jobs were still alive, we would've seen any revolutionary products that we otherwise haven't. But I'm SURE, he wouldn't not greenlighted a camera that sticked out of the phone, nor the infamous screen notch on the iPhone X. Without those two issues, I'd get an X in a heartbeat. But those are seriously annoying issues to me (and the reason I for now am sticking with an SE).
- eref 9y ago
  The Touch Bar is also a ergonomic and UX catastrophe. Touching it accidentally happens way too often and your hands also tend to be in the way for reading it. It is also way too small and requires adjusting ones pose to read it properly. Then there is the iPhone case with extra battery that looks absolutely hideous: https://i.imgur.com/VZM2SED.jpg https://i.imgur.com/VZM2SED.jpg And not to mention the utter design flaw that the Mighty Mouse cannot be used during charging: https://i.redd.it/e5p6uoibkkkx.jpg https://i.redd.it/e5p6uoibkkkx.jpg Why not change the design altogether when adding a charging port? The original design was known to be an ergonomic nightmare for years anyway. Then there is the way the Apple Pen is supposed to be charged (and easily broken by accident): http://i.imgur.com/NjKqE2r.jpg http://i.imgur.com/NjKqE2r.jpg Why didn't they simply add a small cable accessory, or even better, a small 90° hinge like on an antenna? This is just such an awkward design decision. The speaker grilles on the MacBook Pro with Touch Bar are also mostly merely cosmetics. Form follows form. What's next? Ornaments? http://i.imgur.com/aEz8pWN.jpg http://i.imgur.com/aEz8pWN.jpg I also thought the lack of indicators for buttons in iOS 7 was a really bad decision. Luckily, they are reversing that.
  - rimliu 9y ago
    Charging port at the bottom of the mouse is not even a problem, not to mention "ergonomic nightmare". The same goes for a lot of "problems" in your list. And of course there is always someone who knows what Jobs would or would not do.
    - sulam 9y ago
      Oh really? I suppose that’s why the keyboard and touchpad both have it on the rear so you can use the device while it’s charging? It’s clearly a problem.
      - vlozko 9y ago
        The whole charging port on the bottom of the mouse isn't just for visual design. It's intentionally made to force you into using it exclusively wireless. If it were allowed to be a wired mouse far more people will have crappy experiences with the cable constantly snagging on things. Yes, technically you could plausibly run it wired until its charged enough but now there's the extra inconvenience of managing a cable. I know this all comes off as 1st world problems - and it certainly is - but Apple has always been about refining the experience. Besides, if the battery on my mouse does die, I just plug it in, go make some coffee, and come back to a mouse that'll last me for at least another week before another recharge. Fully charged, I've had it run for at least a month. The whole charge from the bottom is one of the biggest non-issues ever.
        tnova 9y ago
        Sounds to me, like you are finding excuses to defend a bad design decision. If my mouse dies on me, then I expect to be able to plug it in and then continue to use it, with a minimal interruption of my workflow. Which, how you presented it, is not possible. I shouldn't be forced to bend my workflow around my devices, but my devices should bend to my workflow. Yes, this is not always possible, but in this case it is just an unnecessary inconvenience. And if I decide, that I want to have the "crappy experience" of using my mouse while it's on a charging cable, then I should be able to make that decision. This is not "refining experience", it is just bad design.
- raverbashing 9y ago
  Steve Jobs also wanted the circuit boards of the Apple II to "look beautiful", but of course things don't work that way I'd rather have a better camera with a small bump (though it could be improved) or a notch but bigger screen. Note doing away with both of these items requires some compromise. They could have had no notch but a smaller screen (like in any other phone), or have that section only be 'system usable'. It's a choice and a compromise. It can look weird to some people but that's what compromises are.
nikbackm 9y ago
The camera sticking out is not a problem when you use a case. Which most probably want to? Have to protect the expensive device somehow.
- m_st 9y ago
  Full ACK. Even without a case it never is or was a problem. It's just a little weird. However, the notch is indeed problematic when the iPhone X is used in landscape mode (tested on simulator).
- matt4077 9y ago
  The iPhone isn't designed to be used with a case. In fact, I'm pretty sure Jony Ive stops talking to anybody he sees using a case. His last words to you will be "If I thought you should put in a case, I would've made the back from cheap industrial plastic".
  - sveme 9y ago
    Then he shouldn't have made the iPhone 7 so damn slippery. I hate the case, but I hate the fact that I have to replace the fucking screen for 150 Euros due to it slipping from my dry fingers even more. Now I have an ugly case and a spider-web criss-crossing the screen at the same time. This absolute need for a case with the 7 is a real major design flaw.
    - lucasverra 9y ago
      remove the case. Now you have a badass rock styled iphone. Win win (that's my actual config :) )
  - maxerickson 9y ago
    Your imagined Jony Ive sounds like a real peach.
  - nicpottier 9y ago
    Source? Also note that some of the first iPhones had plastic backs. I for one miss plastic, it is a hell of a lot more durable and doesn't have any of the issues with interference. There are lots of ways of making plastic feel premium as well.
matwood 9y ago
The notch may have been a compromise, but in practice it just isn’t very noticeable. In portrait orientation moving the status bar items on either side gives the app more room. In landscape it’s a piece of screen real estate that can’t be used but is much smaller than where the home button would have been.
- patates 9y ago
  I really don't understand the big deal about the notch. Does it cause any problems for anyone?
  - matwood 9y ago
    It has not caused any issues for me. And faceId, if I can channel my inner SJ, is magical. It’s like I have no security on the device. My only complaint about the X, is that I want it in the frame of an iPhone plus.
    - dr_ 9y ago
      Agreed. With the sacrifice in width it is, and very much feels like, a smaller phone, despite the increase in diagonal screen size measurement. I also find that it is not as bright as my 2014 iPhone 6 Plus.
      - zimpenfish 9y ago
        > it is, and very much feels like, a smaller phone Whereas for me, coming from a 7, it looks like a huge phone even though it's near-identical in size.
    - pvinis 9y ago
      Wait for the iPad mini X.
- agumonkey 9y ago
  Interesting. As a non customer, one thing made me cringe is the workarounds.. the notch felt like a gizmo costing the full screen a lot. Should have made a screen with a translucent slit with the sensors behind. Call me Tim.
jmull 9y ago
I don’t know where the idea came from that a featureless rectilinear slab is somehow the ideal design for a phone. Of course people are perfectly welcome to their own opinions, but there’s a deeper design principle here to let an object be what it is. If all you do with a phone is look at it and tap on it then a plain rectangle is very good. But you also hold the phone up to your head to talk into it and hear the person on the other side. Orientation is important. It’s also probably the best camera you’ve ever owned, which intrinticly have a lens and depth. Why try to pretend one of the most important aspects of the phone doesn’t exist? (There have been some truely great camera designs over the years... how many of those were featureless, symmetrical rectangles? But now we think that’s somehow the ideal design??) And the phone looks back at you, listens to you, and senses your environment. All key features. So why try to sweep those important sensors under the rug? Orientation is important here too, so again you want an orientation, not a symmetric featureless slab. Sorry to jump on you, but I think your examples aren’t good.
- Shivetya 9y ago
  I guess we are trapped by lack of UI innovation so the form will be the driver still. for me I like many "sci fi" representations where the phone is everything, it just happens to work for calls. need a bigger display, point at something appropriate. need it to be private, well with tracking and directional displays we can get there. With regards to the X, +, and other phones, its not the form factor that was important, it was how you gained access. I think Apple emphasized the edge to edge screen too much when it was evident the notch was in violation, and should have wholly focused on what face id would give us. I do not understand why they cannot move some gestures only on X to other devices though.
- throwawayjava 9y ago
  I see what you're saying, and agree, but the description you give reminds me of this: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_QNmG5af9rFs/R3ypiFV0XaI/AAAAAAAAAu4/VOYdzb_GeRY/s400/New+Image2.JPG http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_QNmG5af9rFs/R3ypiFV0XaI/AAAAAAAAAu... Or, to be a bit less flippant about it: * flip phones * phones with slideout keyboards * blackberries * palm pilot stylus The featureless slab beat all of those for a few important reasons, but probably the most important is aesthetic. Even the iPad Pro, which has a stylus, is much more aesthetic, and so less nerdy, than the old palm stylus. So I also understand the ambivalence toward deviating from the featureless slab.
decasteve 9y ago
Apple before Tim Cook makes me more concerned about an Apple without Tim Cook. They seem to have a magical ability to keep squeezing more and more profit out of everything while making (large) incremental improvements on every iteration of each product: phone, computer, watch, headphone. I attribute this more to Cook than to Jobs. It can be argued that a Jobs and Cook Apple would be ideal but their continued success is an impressive thing to be a part of.
- oflannabhra 9y ago
  the following things have occurred under Cooks tenure: - Apple Watch - AirPods - Apple Pencil - Apple Music - HomePod - ARKit Each of those represent entirely new product categories, have captured the majority of a pre-existing market, or have opened up entirely new use cases for previously existing products. I agree with you that an Apple without Tim Cook would be in trouble indeed. However, I think that Cook's record indicates that he is truly leading the company in the same way Jobs did: a focus on truly personal, well-designed products. I hope the "Cook is Ballmer" trope will quickly die.
  - sprafa 9y ago
    Cook is Bill Gates, not Ballmer. He's a genius level CEO who compromises on design and user experience while advancing the company in the right direction - well enough and fast enough that he crushes the competition.
hashmal 9y ago
For what it's worth, Apple released some devices (iPod touch I think) with the camera-wart when Jobs was still around. But I agree, lately I don't like what they do. My favorite is still the iPhone 5.
013a 9y ago
Both of the things you listed could just as easily be interpreted as distinctive visual design elements. Ultimately, in every sense, function, capability, and limitations guide visual design. Look at the Made for iPhone badge [1]; the bezels of the older devices are prominently displayed; they + the home button are what enable someone to look at that picture and immediately know its an iPhone. How would that badge look if all they showed was a generic rectangle [2]? Today, both the bezels and the home button are gone. Yet, take one look at this [3] and tell me it isn't just as distinctive. Apple made the decision to rotate the camera apparatus on the back of the device by 90 degrees [4] relative to the original device. Is there a functional reason for this? Probably not. Its a visual choice; it differentiates the upper-end device as an almost status symbol. Think on that for a second; you want them to hide the cameras by making them flush, but they picked a completely opposite approach. They accentuated the cameras by making them a status symbol. Flush, hidden cameras could never do this. Want to bet that the iPhone X won't be their best selling iPhone they've ever made? I doubt it. You know it will be. Let's talk Pixel. Specifically, the glass part of the back [5]. Its there for a functional reason; improving radio connectivity by avoiding metal. But it could be much less distinctive and accomplish the same purpose. Apple did something similar by running less visible plastic trim around the device with the 6/6S/7/8. Pixel's way is a unique, differentiating design element. You can try to make a perfectly functional device. No design elements, flush cameras, a beige rectangle. Perfectly functional. Now, you've lost something qualitative; distinction. [1] https://support.apple.com/library/content/dam/edam/applecare/images/en_US/iphone/accessories/made_for_iphone.png https://support.apple.com/library/content/dam/edam/applecare... [2] https://www.androidcentral.com/sites/androidcentral.com/files/styles/xlarge_wm_brb/public/article_images/2017/10/google-pixel-2-xl-15.jpg?itok=HxDKFlNN https://www.androidcentral.com/sites/androidcentral.com/file... [3] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/technology/2017/07/31/DGB1a6rWAAAbgnS_trans_NvBQzQNjv4Bq7HhxwjNlxuYWYxJ7vounExSgTecg3VXcB-1eUmydTgI.jpg?imwidth=450 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/technology/2017/07/31... [4] http://assets.hardwarezone.com/img/2017/09/DSC_1461.jpg http://assets.hardwarezone.com/img/2017/09/DSC_1461.jpg [5] https://www.theandroidsoul.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/google-pixel-2-back.jpg https://www.theandroidsoul.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/go...

manuelflara 9y ago

I think exactly the same way. I'm not sure if Jobs were still alive, we would've seen any revolutionary products that we otherwise haven't. But I'm SURE, he wouldn't not greenlighted a camera that sticked out of the phone, nor the infamous screen notch on the iPhone X. Without those two issues, I'd get an X in a heartbeat. But those are seriously annoying issues to me (and the reason I for now am sticking with an SE).

eref 9y ago
The Touch Bar is also a ergonomic and UX catastrophe. Touching it accidentally happens way too often and your hands also tend to be in the way for reading it. It is also way too small and requires adjusting ones pose to read it properly. Then there is the iPhone case with extra battery that looks absolutely hideous: https://i.imgur.com/VZM2SED.jpg https://i.imgur.com/VZM2SED.jpg And not to mention the utter design flaw that the Mighty Mouse cannot be used during charging: https://i.redd.it/e5p6uoibkkkx.jpg https://i.redd.it/e5p6uoibkkkx.jpg Why not change the design altogether when adding a charging port? The original design was known to be an ergonomic nightmare for years anyway. Then there is the way the Apple Pen is supposed to be charged (and easily broken by accident): http://i.imgur.com/NjKqE2r.jpg http://i.imgur.com/NjKqE2r.jpg Why didn't they simply add a small cable accessory, or even better, a small 90° hinge like on an antenna? This is just such an awkward design decision. The speaker grilles on the MacBook Pro with Touch Bar are also mostly merely cosmetics. Form follows form. What's next? Ornaments? http://i.imgur.com/aEz8pWN.jpg http://i.imgur.com/aEz8pWN.jpg I also thought the lack of indicators for buttons in iOS 7 was a really bad decision. Luckily, they are reversing that.
- rimliu 9y ago
  Charging port at the bottom of the mouse is not even a problem, not to mention "ergonomic nightmare". The same goes for a lot of "problems" in your list. And of course there is always someone who knows what Jobs would or would not do.
  - sulam 9y ago
    Oh really? I suppose that’s why the keyboard and touchpad both have it on the rear so you can use the device while it’s charging? It’s clearly a problem.
    - vlozko 9y ago
      The whole charging port on the bottom of the mouse isn't just for visual design. It's intentionally made to force you into using it exclusively wireless. If it were allowed to be a wired mouse far more people will have crappy experiences with the cable constantly snagging on things. Yes, technically you could plausibly run it wired until its charged enough but now there's the extra inconvenience of managing a cable. I know this all comes off as 1st world problems - and it certainly is - but Apple has always been about refining the experience. Besides, if the battery on my mouse does die, I just plug it in, go make some coffee, and come back to a mouse that'll last me for at least another week before another recharge. Fully charged, I've had it run for at least a month. The whole charge from the bottom is one of the biggest non-issues ever.
      - tnova 9y ago
        Sounds to me, like you are finding excuses to defend a bad design decision. If my mouse dies on me, then I expect to be able to plug it in and then continue to use it, with a minimal interruption of my workflow. Which, how you presented it, is not possible. I shouldn't be forced to bend my workflow around my devices, but my devices should bend to my workflow. Yes, this is not always possible, but in this case it is just an unnecessary inconvenience. And if I decide, that I want to have the "crappy experience" of using my mouse while it's on a charging cable, then I should be able to make that decision. This is not "refining experience", it is just bad design.
raverbashing 9y ago
Steve Jobs also wanted the circuit boards of the Apple II to "look beautiful", but of course things don't work that way I'd rather have a better camera with a small bump (though it could be improved) or a notch but bigger screen. Note doing away with both of these items requires some compromise. They could have had no notch but a smaller screen (like in any other phone), or have that section only be 'system usable'. It's a choice and a compromise. It can look weird to some people but that's what compromises are.

nikbackm 9y ago

The camera sticking out is not a problem when you use a case. Which most probably want to? Have to protect the expensive device somehow.

m_st 9y ago
Full ACK. Even without a case it never is or was a problem. It's just a little weird. However, the notch is indeed problematic when the iPhone X is used in landscape mode (tested on simulator).
matt4077 9y ago
The iPhone isn't designed to be used with a case. In fact, I'm pretty sure Jony Ive stops talking to anybody he sees using a case. His last words to you will be "If I thought you should put in a case, I would've made the back from cheap industrial plastic".
- sveme 9y ago
  Then he shouldn't have made the iPhone 7 so damn slippery. I hate the case, but I hate the fact that I have to replace the fucking screen for 150 Euros due to it slipping from my dry fingers even more. Now I have an ugly case and a spider-web criss-crossing the screen at the same time. This absolute need for a case with the 7 is a real major design flaw.
  - lucasverra 9y ago
    remove the case. Now you have a badass rock styled iphone. Win win (that's my actual config :) )
- maxerickson 9y ago
  Your imagined Jony Ive sounds like a real peach.
- nicpottier 9y ago
  Source? Also note that some of the first iPhones had plastic backs. I for one miss plastic, it is a hell of a lot more durable and doesn't have any of the issues with interference. There are lots of ways of making plastic feel premium as well.

matwood 9y ago

The notch may have been a compromise, but in practice it just isn’t very noticeable. In portrait orientation moving the status bar items on either side gives the app more room. In landscape it’s a piece of screen real estate that can’t be used but is much smaller than where the home button would have been.

patates 9y ago
I really don't understand the big deal about the notch. Does it cause any problems for anyone?
- matwood 9y ago
  It has not caused any issues for me. And faceId, if I can channel my inner SJ, is magical. It’s like I have no security on the device. My only complaint about the X, is that I want it in the frame of an iPhone plus.
  - dr_ 9y ago
    Agreed. With the sacrifice in width it is, and very much feels like, a smaller phone, despite the increase in diagonal screen size measurement. I also find that it is not as bright as my 2014 iPhone 6 Plus.
    - zimpenfish 9y ago
      > it is, and very much feels like, a smaller phone Whereas for me, coming from a 7, it looks like a huge phone even though it's near-identical in size.
  - pvinis 9y ago
    Wait for the iPad mini X.
agumonkey 9y ago
Interesting. As a non customer, one thing made me cringe is the workarounds.. the notch felt like a gizmo costing the full screen a lot. Should have made a screen with a translucent slit with the sensors behind. Call me Tim.

jmull 9y ago

I don’t know where the idea came from that a featureless rectilinear slab is somehow the ideal design for a phone. Of course people are perfectly welcome to their own opinions, but there’s a deeper design principle here to let an object be what it is. If all you do with a phone is look at it and tap on it then a plain rectangle is very good. But you also hold the phone up to your head to talk into it and hear the person on the other side. Orientation is important. It’s also probably the best camera you’ve ever owned, which intrinticly have a lens and depth. Why try to pretend one of the most important aspects of the phone doesn’t exist? (There have been some truely great camera designs over the years... how many of those were featureless, symmetrical rectangles? But now we think that’s somehow the ideal design??) And the phone looks back at you, listens to you, and senses your environment. All key features. So why try to sweep those important sensors under the rug? Orientation is important here too, so again you want an orientation, not a symmetric featureless slab. Sorry to jump on you, but I think your examples aren’t good.

Shivetya 9y ago
I guess we are trapped by lack of UI innovation so the form will be the driver still. for me I like many "sci fi" representations where the phone is everything, it just happens to work for calls. need a bigger display, point at something appropriate. need it to be private, well with tracking and directional displays we can get there. With regards to the X, +, and other phones, its not the form factor that was important, it was how you gained access. I think Apple emphasized the edge to edge screen too much when it was evident the notch was in violation, and should have wholly focused on what face id would give us. I do not understand why they cannot move some gestures only on X to other devices though.
throwawayjava 9y ago
I see what you're saying, and agree, but the description you give reminds me of this: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_QNmG5af9rFs/R3ypiFV0XaI/AAAAAAAAAu4/VOYdzb_GeRY/s400/New+Image2.JPG http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_QNmG5af9rFs/R3ypiFV0XaI/AAAAAAAAAu... Or, to be a bit less flippant about it: * flip phones * phones with slideout keyboards * blackberries * palm pilot stylus The featureless slab beat all of those for a few important reasons, but probably the most important is aesthetic. Even the iPad Pro, which has a stylus, is much more aesthetic, and so less nerdy, than the old palm stylus. So I also understand the ambivalence toward deviating from the featureless slab.

decasteve 9y ago

Apple before Tim Cook makes me more concerned about an Apple without Tim Cook. They seem to have a magical ability to keep squeezing more and more profit out of everything while making (large) incremental improvements on every iteration of each product: phone, computer, watch, headphone. I attribute this more to Cook than to Jobs. It can be argued that a Jobs and Cook Apple would be ideal but their continued success is an impressive thing to be a part of.

oflannabhra 9y ago
the following things have occurred under Cooks tenure: - Apple Watch - AirPods - Apple Pencil - Apple Music - HomePod - ARKit Each of those represent entirely new product categories, have captured the majority of a pre-existing market, or have opened up entirely new use cases for previously existing products. I agree with you that an Apple without Tim Cook would be in trouble indeed. However, I think that Cook's record indicates that he is truly leading the company in the same way Jobs did: a focus on truly personal, well-designed products. I hope the "Cook is Ballmer" trope will quickly die.
- sprafa 9y ago
  Cook is Bill Gates, not Ballmer. He's a genius level CEO who compromises on design and user experience while advancing the company in the right direction - well enough and fast enough that he crushes the competition.

hashmal 9y ago

For what it's worth, Apple released some devices (iPod touch I think) with the camera-wart when Jobs was still around. But I agree, lately I don't like what they do. My favorite is still the iPhone 5.

013a 9y ago

Both of the things you listed could just as easily be interpreted as distinctive visual design elements. Ultimately, in every sense, function, capability, and limitations guide visual design. Look at the Made for iPhone badge [1]; the bezels of the older devices are prominently displayed; they + the home button are what enable someone to look at that picture and immediately know its an iPhone. How would that badge look if all they showed was a generic rectangle [2]? Today, both the bezels and the home button are gone. Yet, take one look at this [3] and tell me it isn't just as distinctive. Apple made the decision to rotate the camera apparatus on the back of the device by 90 degrees [4] relative to the original device. Is there a functional reason for this? Probably not. Its a visual choice; it differentiates the upper-end device as an almost status symbol. Think on that for a second; you want them to hide the cameras by making them flush, but they picked a completely opposite approach. They accentuated the cameras by making them a status symbol. Flush, hidden cameras could never do this. Want to bet that the iPhone X won't be their best selling iPhone they've ever made? I doubt it. You know it will be. Let's talk Pixel. Specifically, the glass part of the back [5]. Its there for a functional reason; improving radio connectivity by avoiding metal. But it could be much less distinctive and accomplish the same purpose. Apple did something similar by running less visible plastic trim around the device with the 6/6S/7/8. Pixel's way is a unique, differentiating design element. You can try to make a perfectly functional device. No design elements, flush cameras, a beige rectangle. Perfectly functional. Now, you've lost something qualitative; distinction. [1] https://support.apple.com/library/content/dam/edam/applecare/images/en_US/iphone/accessories/made_for_iphone.png https://support.apple.com/library/content/dam/edam/applecare... [2] https://www.androidcentral.com/sites/androidcentral.com/files/styles/xlarge_wm_brb/public/article_images/2017/10/google-pixel-2-xl-15.jpg?itok=HxDKFlNN https://www.androidcentral.com/sites/androidcentral.com/file... [3] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/technology/2017/07/31/DGB1a6rWAAAbgnS_trans_NvBQzQNjv4Bq7HhxwjNlxuYWYxJ7vounExSgTecg3VXcB-1eUmydTgI.jpg?imwidth=450 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/technology/2017/07/31... [4] http://assets.hardwarezone.com/img/2017/09/DSC_1461.jpg http://assets.hardwarezone.com/img/2017/09/DSC_1461.jpg [5] https://www.theandroidsoul.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/google-pixel-2-back.jpg https://www.theandroidsoul.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/go...