12 ms·

That they can "talk" to each other in their minds is very interesting to me. I've always wondered whether as humans our experiences are internally similar or no

That they can "talk" to each other in their minds is very interesting to me. I've always wondered whether as humans our experiences are internally similar or not. Do you see my green as red? And so on. But if these girls can understand each other's thoughts that indicates that thoughts are similar. It means they share the same internal logic. Really this could be a good evidence to support the idea that we all think alike. I hope they grow up and their brains are able to mature normally. They will probably always have to share the body though, sadly.

scott_karana 9y ago
I wish there was more info on this alleged ability. It shouldn't be hard to show only Tatiana a picture of a number/person/etc, ask her to think about it, and see whether Krista can tell. Somehow it doesn't add up with the rest (shared motor abilities through the thalamus), and sounds more like the poetic but bogus claims that many twins make about one another.
- avh02 9y ago
  it's a little difficult when they can see out of each other's eyes. granted one of them can only see out of one of the other's eyes, it's still difficult and probably so unique/case-by-case that it would be difficult to come to any conclusions
  - scott_karana 9y ago
    True. Or limb taps would work instead, since nether have control over all of them.
  - PeterisP 9y ago
    Since each of them has a "non-shared" eye, testing this is kind of straightforward, we can retry the same experiments that have been performed for split-hemisphere patients (where the left-brain personality has access only to the right eye and vice versa).
- osullivj 9y ago
  If the "talk" isn't in natural language, then it's a refutation of Wittgenstein's private language argument.
  - lgessler 9y ago
    I'm not sure about that. As I understand it, W's argument against private language is essentially that there is no way for a single person to be sure that they are following rules and that those rules are consistent over time. It also happens that none of the languages we are familiar with use thought as their medium (being signed, spoken, read, etc. instead), but if these twins are indeed using internal dialog (whatever that means) as a medium of communication, it could very well be regulated by rule following in a way that would satisfy W, don't you think?
- return0 9y ago
  according to this article they can do that http://ojs.library.ubc.ca/index.php/ubcujp/article/view/2521/182422 http://ojs.library.ubc.ca/index.php/ubcujp/article/view/2521... What's not clear is how they "listen" to each other. Stream-of-thought signals may reach the thalamus, but be suppressed from being uttered as they normally do with all of us. Yet the girls may have developed some connection that allows them to "read" each other.
visarga 9y ago
In deep learning it is possible to align languages to a common vector space. Any word in any language maps to the same space. So I don't see why it would be hard to map human thoughts from person to person.
- jimmytidey 9y ago
  Have you got a reference for this
delinka 9y ago
I think your questions revolve around the rest of us having separate brains and these brains having developed in ways unique to each of us. Theirs is intertwined to the point that it's one big brain. Perhaps each girl's own part has individuality, but their development would overlap or inform the other in such a way that they can share thoughts. My point: I don't believe you can extrapolate from "these girls can share thoughts" to "all human thought share the same protocol/mechanism." That said, we all have human brains, and maybe human brains share the same protocol/mechanism for thought.
jon_richards 9y ago
>Really this could be a good evidence to support the idea that we all think alike. Our ability to think is extremely adaptable. I doubt we all think alike (apart from the general mechanism and macro structures). One old experiment was to completely flip someone's vision upside down (with mirrors in goggles). It generally took people a week or two to adapt, but then their brains could once again link their visual input with other sensory input. They clearly didn't have the same internal logic as others (since their brains had to reverse the image), but because they received constant feedback on the results of their logic, their brains made them understand the world the same way everyone else does.
- kakarot 9y ago
  I love telling people about that study. It's so cool. And when they removed the glasses, in roughly the same span of time their vision returned to normal. Really makes you wonder about the potential negative impact of certain sensory augmentation during adolescent development, such as glasses or hearing aids, and how we could possibly avoid such negative effects. I don't know why other similar sensory studies haven't been done. For example, trying to rewire the nervous stimulus system, such as trying to make a peripheral touch stimulus on one part of the body register with your proprioceptive system as a different part of the body, or inverting the inferred location of a sound with special headphones and feedback.
  - jon_richards 9y ago
    >For example, trying to rewire the nervous stimulus system, such as trying to make a peripheral touch stimulus on one part of the body register with your proprioceptive system as a different part of the body. Oh wow. This could be huge for prosthetics, especially the robotic ones controled by muscle movements. I wonder if it's already been attempted.
    - jrace 9y ago
      https://www.physio-pedia.com/Mirror_Therapy https://www.physio-pedia.com/Mirror_Therapy The principle of mirror therapy (MT) is the use of a mirror to create a reflective illusion of an affected limb in order to trick the brain into thinking movement has occurred without pain. It involves placing the affected limb behind a mirror, which is sited so the reflection of the opposing limb appears in place of the hidden limb [1].

scott_karana 9y ago

I wish there was more info on this alleged ability. It shouldn't be hard to show only Tatiana a picture of a number/person/etc, ask her to think about it, and see whether Krista can tell. Somehow it doesn't add up with the rest (shared motor abilities through the thalamus), and sounds more like the poetic but bogus claims that many twins make about one another.

avh02 9y ago
it's a little difficult when they can see out of each other's eyes. granted one of them can only see out of one of the other's eyes, it's still difficult and probably so unique/case-by-case that it would be difficult to come to any conclusions
- scott_karana 9y ago
  True. Or limb taps would work instead, since nether have control over all of them.
- PeterisP 9y ago
  Since each of them has a "non-shared" eye, testing this is kind of straightforward, we can retry the same experiments that have been performed for split-hemisphere patients (where the left-brain personality has access only to the right eye and vice versa).
osullivj 9y ago
If the "talk" isn't in natural language, then it's a refutation of Wittgenstein's private language argument.
- lgessler 9y ago
  I'm not sure about that. As I understand it, W's argument against private language is essentially that there is no way for a single person to be sure that they are following rules and that those rules are consistent over time. It also happens that none of the languages we are familiar with use thought as their medium (being signed, spoken, read, etc. instead), but if these twins are indeed using internal dialog (whatever that means) as a medium of communication, it could very well be regulated by rule following in a way that would satisfy W, don't you think?
return0 9y ago
according to this article they can do that http://ojs.library.ubc.ca/index.php/ubcujp/article/view/2521/182422 http://ojs.library.ubc.ca/index.php/ubcujp/article/view/2521... What's not clear is how they "listen" to each other. Stream-of-thought signals may reach the thalamus, but be suppressed from being uttered as they normally do with all of us. Yet the girls may have developed some connection that allows them to "read" each other.

visarga 9y ago

In deep learning it is possible to align languages to a common vector space. Any word in any language maps to the same space. So I don't see why it would be hard to map human thoughts from person to person.

jimmytidey 9y ago
Have you got a reference for this

delinka 9y ago

I think your questions revolve around the rest of us having separate brains and these brains having developed in ways unique to each of us. Theirs is intertwined to the point that it's one big brain. Perhaps each girl's own part has individuality, but their development would overlap or inform the other in such a way that they can share thoughts. My point: I don't believe you can extrapolate from "these girls can share thoughts" to "all human thought share the same protocol/mechanism." That said, we all have human brains, and maybe human brains share the same protocol/mechanism for thought.

jon_richards 9y ago

>Really this could be a good evidence to support the idea that we all think alike. Our ability to think is extremely adaptable. I doubt we all think alike (apart from the general mechanism and macro structures). One old experiment was to completely flip someone's vision upside down (with mirrors in goggles). It generally took people a week or two to adapt, but then their brains could once again link their visual input with other sensory input. They clearly didn't have the same internal logic as others (since their brains had to reverse the image), but because they received constant feedback on the results of their logic, their brains made them understand the world the same way everyone else does.

kakarot 9y ago
I love telling people about that study. It's so cool. And when they removed the glasses, in roughly the same span of time their vision returned to normal. Really makes you wonder about the potential negative impact of certain sensory augmentation during adolescent development, such as glasses or hearing aids, and how we could possibly avoid such negative effects. I don't know why other similar sensory studies haven't been done. For example, trying to rewire the nervous stimulus system, such as trying to make a peripheral touch stimulus on one part of the body register with your proprioceptive system as a different part of the body, or inverting the inferred location of a sound with special headphones and feedback.
- jon_richards 9y ago
  >For example, trying to rewire the nervous stimulus system, such as trying to make a peripheral touch stimulus on one part of the body register with your proprioceptive system as a different part of the body. Oh wow. This could be huge for prosthetics, especially the robotic ones controled by muscle movements. I wonder if it's already been attempted.
  - jrace 9y ago
    https://www.physio-pedia.com/Mirror_Therapy https://www.physio-pedia.com/Mirror_Therapy The principle of mirror therapy (MT) is the use of a mirror to create a reflective illusion of an affected limb in order to trick the brain into thinking movement has occurred without pain. It involves placing the affected limb behind a mirror, which is sited so the reflection of the opposing limb appears in place of the hidden limb [1].