10 ms·

Millennials to Small Cities: Ready or Not, Here We Come

102 points by SQL2219 9y ago

kwoff 9y ago
I wouldn't have expected North Dakota, West Virginia, Idaho, or South Dakota.. “At The Pew Charitable Trusts, return on investment is not measured in profits but in long-lasting, positive, powerful change.” Is this one of those "philanthropic" tax dodges that very wealthy people put their money in?
Entangled 9y ago
> “The 18- to 35-year-olds expect something like that, but they just didn’t have it,” said Tyler Hodge, 32, who used crowdfunding to help finance the shop. The same tactic was used for a rock climbing gym opened in September by a group of young engineers who, like Hodge, spend their weekdays working at Cummins Inc., the diesel engine company that is the city’s largest employer. Crowdfunding for brick-and-mortar? Now that's interesting, any links?
- mcphilip 9y ago
  https://www.fundable.com/lucabe-coffee-co https://www.fundable.com/lucabe-coffee-co ~37k raised from this campaign
- dsr_ 9y ago
  Here's a brick-and-mortar that successfully crowdfunded twice: http://borderlands-books.blogspot.com/2017/10/haight-street-update.html http://borderlands-books.blogspot.com/2017/10/haight-street-...
- war1025 9y ago
  Cooperatives are a similar model. It is maybe more common for places like organic grocery stores, but it seems like it could work for other businesses.
- cableshaft 9y ago
  I've seen it done successfully a few times now for board game cafes in particular, but that's all that ever come across my radar. Basically local board game lovers like the idea of getting a public space to play and get food, and want to support it.
- rev_bird 9y ago
  A brewpub in Minneapolis crowdfunded about $250k, though the actual financial arrangement seems a little funky, as you'd imagine: http://www.startribune.com/beer-for-life-brewpub-for-all/171627341/ http://www.startribune.com/beer-for-life-brewpub-for-all/171... If you invested $1,000, you got free beer for life.
sverige 9y ago
My town is on the list and still incredibly affordable. I guess it's time to buy up some properties so I can gouge these youngsters later. Not a bad retirement plan, actually. It will be nice to be on the other end of the transaction for the first time in my life.
- humanrebar 9y ago
  Don't feel too guilty. Most of these small towns are in areas where people can move outside of town a bit if they don't care to be gouged. With minimal impact on commute times. Though amenities like affordable high speed internet drop off pretty precipitously if you get too far out.
  - Johnny555 9y ago
    With minimal impact on commute times That works up to a point, but eventually as more people move out of downtown to less expensive suburbs, roads start to clog and the community can't afford the billions of dollars it would take to build more freeways or public transit.
    - humanrebar 9y ago
      In small towns businesses are also often smaller and it's easier to get the boss or owner to OK a work schedule that avoids rush hour traffic.
      - vanilla_nut 9y ago
        [citation needed]
don_draper 9y ago
Real estate is one of the biggest intergenerational scams ever. Be smart and just buy a cheaper house and then work less. pretty simple
- wbl 9y ago
  That assumes you can find a job where the housing is cheap, and you won't end up with as much money. Some things are not cheaper in poor areas like flights.
- aantix 9y ago
  "ever"? We live in an affluent neighborhood surrounded by Doctors and CPAs. Our kids see that every day. That's their normal. And if/when there are major budget changes to the district, who do you think are the first parents in line advocating for their school? You literally buy your kids a chance at a better future.
  - Tempest1981 9y ago
    I kind of agree. Although I look around at those professionals every morning, and almost nobody is smiling. That worries me. And kids notice that too.
  - sitkack 9y ago
    School funds should be distributed equally across the entire population. If we were a democracy, rich neighborhoods wouldn't have better schools.
    - jknoepfler 9y ago
      That's not precisely true. Because we live in a democracy, citizens of local governments can collectively vote to levy additional funds for local schools. I agree that federal and state funding should obviate this, but there's nothing intrinsically undemocratic about the current system. (Unfair or badly designed != undemocratic). Some of the best public schools in the nation exist where I grew up in the Minnesota suburbs. They served trailer parks and public housing the same as the doctors and lawyers. But they also passed levies to increase their own taxes year after year. It is unfair, and wrong, that Minneapolis inner city schools don't have the same funding, but the vibrancy of the well funded public schools was a consequence of local, effective, democratic political action.
cableshaft 9y ago
A little surprised to see my hometown, Bloomington, IL on the list. There's two universities in town, so I know they bring in a lot of young people, but unless you want to open a restaurant or work at State Farm your whole life, there doesn't seem to be a whole ton of opportunities there, especially now that the Mitsubishi plant closed down. It is still a very affordable place to live, that part is certainly true.
- mikepurvis 9y ago
  Isn't the point that the "here we come" millenials are bringing their own startups with them, or working remotely? So you can live in a boring, inexpensive college town somewhere, but still have exciting, well-paid work.
  - cableshaft 9y ago
    Well sure. I do have a friend who's trying to get a 3D print studio startup going that lives in the area, even. But there's not a huge market there for new businesses outside of restaurants (seriously, it's a test market for new restaurants and it has one of the highest amount of restaurants per capita in the US), as far as I can tell at least. If you work completely remotely that's fine, but at least the article was saying more that millennial were moving to these places because the existing demand for workers was there, especially knowledge workers, and that's just not really true here unless you want to work at the headquarters for a giant insurance company. The scope of the article is generally true, I was just surprised to see my hometown included, is all. If you're just looking for cheap places to live and work completely remotely, there are tons of other towns nearby that are much cheaper. Hell, just go 20 miles outside of Bloomington and you can get a house at about half the price that you would in Bloomington, in much smaller towns. I have old high school buddies that do exactly that.
    - KGIII 9y ago
      Do you have any more info on the restaurants per capita? Google isn't very helpful. I ask only out of mild interest. The village closest to me has ~30 and just 1200 residents. However, it's a tourist town and there are zero franchise fast food places, or the likes. Wait, mostly disregard this. I was looking for the wrong town and now have a bunch of information.
froindt 9y ago
Surprised to see Cedar Rapids, IA on the list. I grew up in the area and it was not very appealing to stay in the area. Growing up, everybody's parents worked at Rockwell Collins, and not many of my peers had intentions of staying in the area. Few did. In the last few years I have noticed changes around the city. Some big investments downtown, new developments for commercial and shopping space, etc. I doubt Cedar Rapids would have been on the list if it it wasn't for the 2008 flood. Nothing could get done at a city level because people were always against it for some reason or another. It was a kick in the pants city wide to get stuff done. Rockwell, the largest employer in the city, has always had a tough time recruiting. Perhaps it will be easier for them to get young talent in the coming years?
- FLUX-YOU 9y ago
  >In the last few years I have noticed changes around the city. Some big investments downtown, new developments for commercial and shopping space, etc. I guess investors have the big cities' real estate markets locked down. Now they're trying the same gentrification game in small towns to get rents raised?
  - wbl 9y ago
    The people who raise rents ard the ones who limit the supply of housing.
- humanrebar 9y ago
  > Perhaps it will be easier for them to get young talent in the coming years? Dunno what kind of work happens up in Cedar Rapids, but it's a lifestyle sacrifice to be unplugged from the internet and mobile communication during work hours. If a significant portion of the work up there happens in secret labs, they'll absolutely have problems recruiting millenials. Especially software engineers, who benefit from online language references, stack overflow, etc.
  - froindt 9y ago
    Rockwell has a split of commercial and government. No idea on the distribution of levels of confidentiality on the government work, but I definitely agree that a lack of access to online reference materials would a hard pass for many engineers. I know they do lots with GPS and flight displays. Beyond Rockwell, much of the city is employed by grain processing. Cargill, Penford (it has a new name now, don't know it), general mills, quaker oats, and Conagra all have large factories in the city.
FiveSquared 9y ago
What about Sacramento? The city is seeing more and more people moving to it, due to the warm climate and the location close to the Bay.
- deleted 9y ago
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- junkscience2017 9y ago
  Sacramento has all of the disadvantages of living in California (high taxes, regulation, etc) but none of the advantages (great weather, scenery, awesome job market). You mention the weather... Sacramento's is awful. The heat is unbearable. You might as well just keep on 80 until you hit Reno.
  - jdhn 9y ago
    >You might as well just keep on 80 until you hit Reno. There's quite a few people who have done just that. I feel like every 3rd person in Reno is a California expat.
- seppin 9y ago
  I grew up 2 hours away and have never been. That's probably why.
- Mz 9y ago
  Sacramento is nearly a half a million people. The article seems to be talking about cities that are roughly a tenth that size, with populations around 40k-60k. (I have checked a few of them, but not all of them.) Its estimated 2016 population of 493,025 makes it the sixth-largest city in California, the fastest-growing big city in the state,[11] and the 35th largest city in the United States. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacramento,_California https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacramento,_California
Nelkins 9y ago
I think about this a lot, mostly about Rochester, NY (where I went to college). It has world-class universities (and a renowned music conservatory[1]!), great history, festivals, relatively low unemployment[2] and the housing is dirt, dirt cheap[3]. The thing is, right now I make a pretty great salary in NYC and I don't know that anything in Rochester could come close, even taking into account cost of living. Even if everything is expensive here, and even if expenses might be lower on a percentage basis in Rochester, I think I'm still able to save more in absolute terms where I am now. Not sure about that though, would need to run the numbers to confirm. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastman_School_of_Music https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastman_School_of_Music [2] https://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.ny_rochester_msa.htm#eag_ny_rochester_msa.f.1 https://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.ny_rochester_msa.htm#eag_ny_roch... [3] https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Rochester,-NY_rb/?fromHomePage=true&shouldFireSellPageImplicitClaimGA=false&fromHomePageTab=buy https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Rochester,-NY_rb/?from...
- athenot 9y ago
  Affordable housing and good salaries are usually on the conflicting ends of the same scale. A place that has high-paying jobs will have residents out-bidding each other, driving up the prices of the housing market. Conversely, super cheap housing is usually an indicator that there really is no demand from affluent residents. As a counter-point to what I just said, more and more information-based jobs can be done remotely in a very effective manner. This lets people enjoy these small towns and their high salary. Two things could happen, though: - this could form communities with enough remote workers to start altering the housing prices, and produce a similar effect to gentrification in that the locals end up outpriced of their own town; - or this could encourage a better spread of higher-paid employees throughout a lot of small towns, and end up not affecting those towns markets. And as a bonus, this might even help relieve the housing pressure on the larger cities.
  - wbl 9y ago
    Or we could remove housing supply restrictions
  - jimmaswell 9y ago
novaRom 9y ago
Move abroad. That's simple. Lots of places with much better quality of life. European Union is terrific place: multiple nations, different climates, various cultures, freedom of speech, parlamentary democracy, clean ecology, safety, good education, inexpensive housing.
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- thecardcheat 9y ago
  For US Generation Student Debt, there's a significant long-term cost to that decision. If you don't have to double the years it takes you to pay back your debt to do so, maybe moving abroad is more of an option.
- betaby 9y ago
  Cost of living is really high everywhere comparably with the the salaries. I can't even imagine place where it make sense to live keeping in mind one day you want to settle and buy property, raise kids and so on.
- psychometry 9y ago
  Getting work visas for yourself and your significant other and moving your entire life across an ocean can hardly be called "simple".
  - aaron-lebo 9y ago
    Yeah, but if the US is a dystopia and the EU is a utopia, who is to argue? Or maybe a lot of those comparisons are simplistic. We like and have most of those things, too.
- mavhc 9y ago
  Won't you have to pay taxes twice if you're from USA though?
sscarduzio 9y ago
Just open your own business (products or freelance) and move to Mexico to work remotely for US customers. Super cheap, better food, tropical climate. 90% of HN readers would be smart enough to do this and sustain themselves beautifully.
- aaron-lebo 9y ago
  Is that the same Mexico with 100k+ killed in the drug war since 2005? Maybe it's an unreasonable fear, but conducting business and sticking out as a foreigner seem like a risk.
  - sscarduzio 9y ago
    I’m saying to conduct a 100% online us/eu based business. You get 6 months visa for Mexico anyway. Get yourself an American style condo in Cancún and that’s it. Mexico is not all uniformly violent, unlike US.
    - JBlue42 9y ago
      The violence seems avoidable but is bad Internet? I've heard its not so great down there.
      - always_good 9y ago
        No worse than the pitiful connections I had over the course of 7 years in Austin. American internet is not a high bar.
    - kakarot 9y ago
      It really isn't a bad idea and it's something I've considered, but I imagine you basically tank your chances of meeting a life partner or friends who enjoy the same culture, politics, music, art, food, etc. as you while you're down there. Not a big deal for some people, but a big deal for someone like me who prizes romantic fulfilment and friendship as the ultimate meaning in life. Also, it would mean giving up a life of civil disobedience and political action, because as a foreigner in Mexico you really shouldn't stick your neck out in the places that need political action the most. To a degree this seems like a very selfish prioritization.
matt_wulfeck 9y ago
This article is 5 or 7 years too late. We already moved to cities. Now we want to be married and do things that require yards. Or at least own a small piece of the city and no longer be at the mercy of landlords (non-rent controlled renters). Most importantly, I’ve learned the joy and importance being near my family and spending time with them. These are all things I never cared about in my 20s.
- josephpmay 9y ago
  Did you read the article? Pretty sure the vast majority of people living in Columbus, IN are in single-family homes.
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5ourpuss 9y ago
I'm from the Midwest, from the Cedar Rapids area, moved to Chicago, and I have to say I would NEVER EVER move back there. People from these areas are extremely conservative and xenophobic. The restaurants and any business you might frequent are of lower quality. These cities are not world class cities. Claiming that they are is just ignorant. You end up trapped in a little bubble with nowhere to escape to, surrounded by boring white people. There is NOTHING TO DO. What if you want to go out on Friday night and see a rock show? Or get a decent dinner? I hope you like commuting to Chicago... You will be surrounded by insurance salesmen with none of the diversity and vibrancy a larger city offer. That is to say: These places have no culture. No diversity. They have nothing going on, nobody creating anything, no one performing anything. Just going about their little lives selling insurance. Additionally: Their nature sucks. I hope you're fine with never hiking through any interesting terrain, going skiing, or rock climbing, or really doing any interesting outdoor activities. ( I guess hunting is popular? ) Also.. where are you going to work? I'm a software developer: Where am I going to work in Cedar Rapids, IA? Some insurance firm doing meaningless banking bullshit? "But I moved there for my kids!" What if your kid wants to start a rock band, or be a painter, or do anything creative or interesting? Or, what if they are extremely intelligent and want to progress through a decent, competitive school system? I can answer this one from personal experience: They will be completely alone surrounded by mediocre, extremely homogeneous racially and otherwise, people with no community of peers driving each other forward. There will be no friday-night rock shows, no musical culture in general, no museums or after-school clubs or protests to attend. Nowhere to go. Nothing to do. Nowhere to explore. So, after all I've said: What's left to inspire you, or your kids, in these mediocre little cities? So I guess if you're willing to do nothing and be nowhere and be nothing, wasting your days watching television, moving to a smaller city is a great bet. Personally, I'd rather live in a decent city than slouch though a mediocre one.
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- username223 9y ago
  > no museums or after-school clubs or protests to attend. Would that I could attend more protests. Good riddance.
psadauskas 9y ago
I did not ever expect to see my old hometown of 30k people on HN. Growing up there in the 80s and 90s, it was a nice enough place, but basically 0 tech jobs outside of doing basic IT or support. My parents still live there (my dad an EE at the mentioned Cummins), but the fortunes of the town are tied to Cummins' stock price. They've done a lot to revitalize the downtown in the last decade, it used to be pretty run down. That said, its still in Indiana, with hot muggy summers and wet cold winters where you don't see the sun for 4 months. People are generally friendly, as long as you're "normal". There's a lot of casual racism and homophobia, I didn't even recognize it until I moved away and had my eyes opened. I moved to Indy to get a programming job in the early 2000s, and then to Colorado a few years after that. I'm much happier with the climate, the people, and the tech out here. However, the house I close on this month cost 3x what my parents' place is worth.
- drharby 9y ago
  Im mexican american, and grew up in a similar town in Missouri. I was 'normal' as I practiced good English and had no accent. But the casual racism was real, and I have trouble explaining it to those who think racism is only an explicit hatred. Its a lifestyle habit for much of America and rather than discuss it I see people just bark and bark about how ignorant it sounds. Tangential rant, but to circle the wagon to the point, these towns have some ways to go and will need a transformation culturally
- avenoir 9y ago
  Denver and surrounding areas will be unaffordable in the next few years, much like San Francisco today. It's a good time to buy property now and see it double in value.
  - psadauskas 9y ago
    Yep! The only way I'm able to afford this house is because I'm selling the house I bought 5 years ago for 50% more than I paid for it. So many of my friends and colleagues, even in the tech industry, the 20% down payment they're saving for is going up faster than they're able to save for it. I don't think this is sustainable for much longer.
Apocryphon 9y ago
I'm wondering where's the equivalent for California. Sacramento is too significant and big a city to be comparable. I'm thinking Bakersfield and Elk Grove. http://kedc.com/kern-county-fast-becoming-a-mecca-for-millennials/ http://kedc.com/kern-county-fast-becoming-a-mecca-for-millen... https://www.marketwatch.com/story/4-cities-where-millennials-actually-act-like-grown-ups-2017-01-10 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/4-cities-where-millennials...
- s0rce 9y ago
  There are plenty of affordable smaller cities around California. I'm not sure if any of them are attracting younger people. I haven't spent much time in Bakersfield but it wasn't that bad, and the mountains are close. Palmdale/Lancaster might be good, some tech/aerospace out there, you have to like the desert though. Vacaville seems to have industry, mostly manufacturing. There are also plenty of smaller communities in the north state, not sure about jobs, probably none.
- driverdan 9y ago
  Why would you choose CA? Taxes alone will kill a large portion of your income no matter where you live. NY is the same way.
- Mz 9y ago
  I don't think there really is an equivalent in California. I searched for a small town with affordable housing and some minimal level of infrastructure. I found what I needed in another state. I work remotely, so my income is portable. I could potentially go anywhere in the US. I couldn't find anything in California that met my needs.
blacksqr 9y ago
It's funny how deeply they buried the lead in this article. The real story of Columbus is: stable manufacturing jobs + corporate commitment to community = good quality of life. This story is so alien to us now in America that we don't even recognize it when it's staring us in the face.
- mlevental 9y ago
  https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/bury_the_lede https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/bury_the_lede
eric_b 9y ago
The financial crisis delayed the usual process of marriage, having children, and house buying for millenials. Instead of doing it in their mid/late 20's, they held off until late 20's/early 30s. Everyone likes to be young and in the city. It's fun. You can go out and have unlimited options for things to do, places to eat, etc. The exorbitant rent charges for luxury apartments is something that becomes unpalatable once you get sick of living with roommates, or want to have a family. As people get older they generally go out less and appreciate nature, personal space, and quiet more. (Obviously a generalization but in aggregate is true) It's also easier than ever to take an Uber in to the city, should you wish, to avoid parking and drinking and driving.
nfriedly 9y ago
My wife and I spent some time in the Bay Area in our twenties. It was nice and I'm glad we did it, but I am so happy that we moved back to a small town in Ohio before beginning to raise a family. SF is a nice place to visit, but Ohio is home. It definitely helps that programming can be done remotely, but I think I'd still prefer it here, even if it meant working for a local shop at half my current salary.
ljasdfasdfsdl 9y ago
I'm extremely envious of anyone who can tolerate those horrific climates, I'll remain unhappy in bay area until I can find a better climate to escape to.

102 points by SQL2219 9y ago

I wouldn't have expected North Dakota, West Virginia, Idaho, or South Dakota.. “At The Pew Charitable Trusts, return on investment is not measured in profits but in long-lasting, positive, powerful change.” Is this one of those "philanthropic" tax dodges that very wealthy people put their money in?

Entangled 9y ago

> “The 18- to 35-year-olds expect something like that, but they just didn’t have it,” said Tyler Hodge, 32, who used crowdfunding to help finance the shop. The same tactic was used for a rock climbing gym opened in September by a group of young engineers who, like Hodge, spend their weekdays working at Cummins Inc., the diesel engine company that is the city’s largest employer. Crowdfunding for brick-and-mortar? Now that's interesting, any links?

mcphilip 9y ago
https://www.fundable.com/lucabe-coffee-co https://www.fundable.com/lucabe-coffee-co ~37k raised from this campaign
dsr_ 9y ago
Here's a brick-and-mortar that successfully crowdfunded twice: http://borderlands-books.blogspot.com/2017/10/haight-street-update.html http://borderlands-books.blogspot.com/2017/10/haight-street-...
war1025 9y ago
Cooperatives are a similar model. It is maybe more common for places like organic grocery stores, but it seems like it could work for other businesses.
cableshaft 9y ago
I've seen it done successfully a few times now for board game cafes in particular, but that's all that ever come across my radar. Basically local board game lovers like the idea of getting a public space to play and get food, and want to support it.
rev_bird 9y ago
A brewpub in Minneapolis crowdfunded about $250k, though the actual financial arrangement seems a little funky, as you'd imagine: http://www.startribune.com/beer-for-life-brewpub-for-all/171627341/ http://www.startribune.com/beer-for-life-brewpub-for-all/171... If you invested $1,000, you got free beer for life.

sverige 9y ago

My town is on the list and still incredibly affordable. I guess it's time to buy up some properties so I can gouge these youngsters later. Not a bad retirement plan, actually. It will be nice to be on the other end of the transaction for the first time in my life.

humanrebar 9y ago
Don't feel too guilty. Most of these small towns are in areas where people can move outside of town a bit if they don't care to be gouged. With minimal impact on commute times. Though amenities like affordable high speed internet drop off pretty precipitously if you get too far out.
- Johnny555 9y ago
  With minimal impact on commute times That works up to a point, but eventually as more people move out of downtown to less expensive suburbs, roads start to clog and the community can't afford the billions of dollars it would take to build more freeways or public transit.
  - humanrebar 9y ago
    In small towns businesses are also often smaller and it's easier to get the boss or owner to OK a work schedule that avoids rush hour traffic.
    - vanilla_nut 9y ago
      [citation needed]

don_draper 9y ago

Real estate is one of the biggest intergenerational scams ever. Be smart and just buy a cheaper house and then work less. pretty simple

wbl 9y ago
That assumes you can find a job where the housing is cheap, and you won't end up with as much money. Some things are not cheaper in poor areas like flights.
aantix 9y ago
"ever"? We live in an affluent neighborhood surrounded by Doctors and CPAs. Our kids see that every day. That's their normal. And if/when there are major budget changes to the district, who do you think are the first parents in line advocating for their school? You literally buy your kids a chance at a better future.
- Tempest1981 9y ago
  I kind of agree. Although I look around at those professionals every morning, and almost nobody is smiling. That worries me. And kids notice that too.
- sitkack 9y ago
  School funds should be distributed equally across the entire population. If we were a democracy, rich neighborhoods wouldn't have better schools.
  - jknoepfler 9y ago
    That's not precisely true. Because we live in a democracy, citizens of local governments can collectively vote to levy additional funds for local schools. I agree that federal and state funding should obviate this, but there's nothing intrinsically undemocratic about the current system. (Unfair or badly designed != undemocratic). Some of the best public schools in the nation exist where I grew up in the Minnesota suburbs. They served trailer parks and public housing the same as the doctors and lawyers. But they also passed levies to increase their own taxes year after year. It is unfair, and wrong, that Minneapolis inner city schools don't have the same funding, but the vibrancy of the well funded public schools was a consequence of local, effective, democratic political action.

cableshaft 9y ago

A little surprised to see my hometown, Bloomington, IL on the list. There's two universities in town, so I know they bring in a lot of young people, but unless you want to open a restaurant or work at State Farm your whole life, there doesn't seem to be a whole ton of opportunities there, especially now that the Mitsubishi plant closed down. It is still a very affordable place to live, that part is certainly true.

mikepurvis 9y ago
Isn't the point that the "here we come" millenials are bringing their own startups with them, or working remotely? So you can live in a boring, inexpensive college town somewhere, but still have exciting, well-paid work.
- cableshaft 9y ago
  Well sure. I do have a friend who's trying to get a 3D print studio startup going that lives in the area, even. But there's not a huge market there for new businesses outside of restaurants (seriously, it's a test market for new restaurants and it has one of the highest amount of restaurants per capita in the US), as far as I can tell at least. If you work completely remotely that's fine, but at least the article was saying more that millennial were moving to these places because the existing demand for workers was there, especially knowledge workers, and that's just not really true here unless you want to work at the headquarters for a giant insurance company. The scope of the article is generally true, I was just surprised to see my hometown included, is all. If you're just looking for cheap places to live and work completely remotely, there are tons of other towns nearby that are much cheaper. Hell, just go 20 miles outside of Bloomington and you can get a house at about half the price that you would in Bloomington, in much smaller towns. I have old high school buddies that do exactly that.
  - KGIII 9y ago
    Do you have any more info on the restaurants per capita? Google isn't very helpful. I ask only out of mild interest. The village closest to me has ~30 and just 1200 residents. However, it's a tourist town and there are zero franchise fast food places, or the likes. Wait, mostly disregard this. I was looking for the wrong town and now have a bunch of information.

froindt 9y ago

Surprised to see Cedar Rapids, IA on the list. I grew up in the area and it was not very appealing to stay in the area. Growing up, everybody's parents worked at Rockwell Collins, and not many of my peers had intentions of staying in the area. Few did. In the last few years I have noticed changes around the city. Some big investments downtown, new developments for commercial and shopping space, etc. I doubt Cedar Rapids would have been on the list if it it wasn't for the 2008 flood. Nothing could get done at a city level because people were always against it for some reason or another. It was a kick in the pants city wide to get stuff done. Rockwell, the largest employer in the city, has always had a tough time recruiting. Perhaps it will be easier for them to get young talent in the coming years?

FLUX-YOU 9y ago
>In the last few years I have noticed changes around the city. Some big investments downtown, new developments for commercial and shopping space, etc. I guess investors have the big cities' real estate markets locked down. Now they're trying the same gentrification game in small towns to get rents raised?
- wbl 9y ago
  The people who raise rents ard the ones who limit the supply of housing.
humanrebar 9y ago
> Perhaps it will be easier for them to get young talent in the coming years? Dunno what kind of work happens up in Cedar Rapids, but it's a lifestyle sacrifice to be unplugged from the internet and mobile communication during work hours. If a significant portion of the work up there happens in secret labs, they'll absolutely have problems recruiting millenials. Especially software engineers, who benefit from online language references, stack overflow, etc.
- froindt 9y ago
  Rockwell has a split of commercial and government. No idea on the distribution of levels of confidentiality on the government work, but I definitely agree that a lack of access to online reference materials would a hard pass for many engineers. I know they do lots with GPS and flight displays. Beyond Rockwell, much of the city is employed by grain processing. Cargill, Penford (it has a new name now, don't know it), general mills, quaker oats, and Conagra all have large factories in the city.

FiveSquared 9y ago

What about Sacramento? The city is seeing more and more people moving to it, due to the warm climate and the location close to the Bay.

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junkscience2017 9y ago
Sacramento has all of the disadvantages of living in California (high taxes, regulation, etc) but none of the advantages (great weather, scenery, awesome job market). You mention the weather... Sacramento's is awful. The heat is unbearable. You might as well just keep on 80 until you hit Reno.
- jdhn 9y ago
  >You might as well just keep on 80 until you hit Reno. There's quite a few people who have done just that. I feel like every 3rd person in Reno is a California expat.
seppin 9y ago
I grew up 2 hours away and have never been. That's probably why.
Mz 9y ago
Sacramento is nearly a half a million people. The article seems to be talking about cities that are roughly a tenth that size, with populations around 40k-60k. (I have checked a few of them, but not all of them.) Its estimated 2016 population of 493,025 makes it the sixth-largest city in California, the fastest-growing big city in the state,[11] and the 35th largest city in the United States. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacramento,_California https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacramento,_California

Nelkins 9y ago

I think about this a lot, mostly about Rochester, NY (where I went to college). It has world-class universities (and a renowned music conservatory[1]!), great history, festivals, relatively low unemployment[2] and the housing is dirt, dirt cheap[3]. The thing is, right now I make a pretty great salary in NYC and I don't know that anything in Rochester could come close, even taking into account cost of living. Even if everything is expensive here, and even if expenses might be lower on a percentage basis in Rochester, I think I'm still able to save more in absolute terms where I am now. Not sure about that though, would need to run the numbers to confirm. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastman_School_of_Music https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastman_School_of_Music [2] https://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.ny_rochester_msa.htm#eag_ny_rochester_msa.f.1 https://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.ny_rochester_msa.htm#eag_ny_roch... [3] https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Rochester,-NY_rb/?fromHomePage=true&shouldFireSellPageImplicitClaimGA=false&fromHomePageTab=buy https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Rochester,-NY_rb/?from...

athenot 9y ago
Affordable housing and good salaries are usually on the conflicting ends of the same scale. A place that has high-paying jobs will have residents out-bidding each other, driving up the prices of the housing market. Conversely, super cheap housing is usually an indicator that there really is no demand from affluent residents. As a counter-point to what I just said, more and more information-based jobs can be done remotely in a very effective manner. This lets people enjoy these small towns and their high salary. Two things could happen, though: - this could form communities with enough remote workers to start altering the housing prices, and produce a similar effect to gentrification in that the locals end up outpriced of their own town; - or this could encourage a better spread of higher-paid employees throughout a lot of small towns, and end up not affecting those towns markets. And as a bonus, this might even help relieve the housing pressure on the larger cities.
- wbl 9y ago
  Or we could remove housing supply restrictions
- jimmaswell 9y ago

novaRom 9y ago

Move abroad. That's simple. Lots of places with much better quality of life. European Union is terrific place: multiple nations, different climates, various cultures, freedom of speech, parlamentary democracy, clean ecology, safety, good education, inexpensive housing.

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thecardcheat 9y ago
For US Generation Student Debt, there's a significant long-term cost to that decision. If you don't have to double the years it takes you to pay back your debt to do so, maybe moving abroad is more of an option.
betaby 9y ago
Cost of living is really high everywhere comparably with the the salaries. I can't even imagine place where it make sense to live keeping in mind one day you want to settle and buy property, raise kids and so on.
psychometry 9y ago
Getting work visas for yourself and your significant other and moving your entire life across an ocean can hardly be called "simple".
- aaron-lebo 9y ago
  Yeah, but if the US is a dystopia and the EU is a utopia, who is to argue? Or maybe a lot of those comparisons are simplistic. We like and have most of those things, too.
mavhc 9y ago
Won't you have to pay taxes twice if you're from USA though?

sscarduzio 9y ago

Just open your own business (products or freelance) and move to Mexico to work remotely for US customers. Super cheap, better food, tropical climate. 90% of HN readers would be smart enough to do this and sustain themselves beautifully.

aaron-lebo 9y ago
Is that the same Mexico with 100k+ killed in the drug war since 2005? Maybe it's an unreasonable fear, but conducting business and sticking out as a foreigner seem like a risk.
- sscarduzio 9y ago
  I’m saying to conduct a 100% online us/eu based business. You get 6 months visa for Mexico anyway. Get yourself an American style condo in Cancún and that’s it. Mexico is not all uniformly violent, unlike US.
  - JBlue42 9y ago
    The violence seems avoidable but is bad Internet? I've heard its not so great down there.
    - always_good 9y ago
      No worse than the pitiful connections I had over the course of 7 years in Austin. American internet is not a high bar.
  - kakarot 9y ago
    It really isn't a bad idea and it's something I've considered, but I imagine you basically tank your chances of meeting a life partner or friends who enjoy the same culture, politics, music, art, food, etc. as you while you're down there. Not a big deal for some people, but a big deal for someone like me who prizes romantic fulfilment and friendship as the ultimate meaning in life. Also, it would mean giving up a life of civil disobedience and political action, because as a foreigner in Mexico you really shouldn't stick your neck out in the places that need political action the most. To a degree this seems like a very selfish prioritization.

matt_wulfeck 9y ago

This article is 5 or 7 years too late. We already moved to cities. Now we want to be married and do things that require yards. Or at least own a small piece of the city and no longer be at the mercy of landlords (non-rent controlled renters). Most importantly, I’ve learned the joy and importance being near my family and spending time with them. These are all things I never cared about in my 20s.

josephpmay 9y ago
Did you read the article? Pretty sure the vast majority of people living in Columbus, IN are in single-family homes.
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5ourpuss 9y ago

I'm from the Midwest, from the Cedar Rapids area, moved to Chicago, and I have to say I would NEVER EVER move back there. People from these areas are extremely conservative and xenophobic. The restaurants and any business you might frequent are of lower quality. These cities are not world class cities. Claiming that they are is just ignorant. You end up trapped in a little bubble with nowhere to escape to, surrounded by boring white people. There is NOTHING TO DO. What if you want to go out on Friday night and see a rock show? Or get a decent dinner? I hope you like commuting to Chicago... You will be surrounded by insurance salesmen with none of the diversity and vibrancy a larger city offer. That is to say: These places have no culture. No diversity. They have nothing going on, nobody creating anything, no one performing anything. Just going about their little lives selling insurance. Additionally: Their nature sucks. I hope you're fine with never hiking through any interesting terrain, going skiing, or rock climbing, or really doing any interesting outdoor activities. ( I guess hunting is popular? ) Also.. where are you going to work? I'm a software developer: Where am I going to work in Cedar Rapids, IA? Some insurance firm doing meaningless banking bullshit? "But I moved there for my kids!" What if your kid wants to start a rock band, or be a painter, or do anything creative or interesting? Or, what if they are extremely intelligent and want to progress through a decent, competitive school system? I can answer this one from personal experience: They will be completely alone surrounded by mediocre, extremely homogeneous racially and otherwise, people with no community of peers driving each other forward. There will be no friday-night rock shows, no musical culture in general, no museums or after-school clubs or protests to attend. Nowhere to go. Nothing to do. Nowhere to explore. So, after all I've said: What's left to inspire you, or your kids, in these mediocre little cities? So I guess if you're willing to do nothing and be nowhere and be nothing, wasting your days watching television, moving to a smaller city is a great bet. Personally, I'd rather live in a decent city than slouch though a mediocre one.

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username223 9y ago
> no museums or after-school clubs or protests to attend. Would that I could attend more protests. Good riddance.

psadauskas 9y ago

I did not ever expect to see my old hometown of 30k people on HN. Growing up there in the 80s and 90s, it was a nice enough place, but basically 0 tech jobs outside of doing basic IT or support. My parents still live there (my dad an EE at the mentioned Cummins), but the fortunes of the town are tied to Cummins' stock price. They've done a lot to revitalize the downtown in the last decade, it used to be pretty run down. That said, its still in Indiana, with hot muggy summers and wet cold winters where you don't see the sun for 4 months. People are generally friendly, as long as you're "normal". There's a lot of casual racism and homophobia, I didn't even recognize it until I moved away and had my eyes opened. I moved to Indy to get a programming job in the early 2000s, and then to Colorado a few years after that. I'm much happier with the climate, the people, and the tech out here. However, the house I close on this month cost 3x what my parents' place is worth.

drharby 9y ago
Im mexican american, and grew up in a similar town in Missouri. I was 'normal' as I practiced good English and had no accent. But the casual racism was real, and I have trouble explaining it to those who think racism is only an explicit hatred. Its a lifestyle habit for much of America and rather than discuss it I see people just bark and bark about how ignorant it sounds. Tangential rant, but to circle the wagon to the point, these towns have some ways to go and will need a transformation culturally
avenoir 9y ago
Denver and surrounding areas will be unaffordable in the next few years, much like San Francisco today. It's a good time to buy property now and see it double in value.
- psadauskas 9y ago
  Yep! The only way I'm able to afford this house is because I'm selling the house I bought 5 years ago for 50% more than I paid for it. So many of my friends and colleagues, even in the tech industry, the 20% down payment they're saving for is going up faster than they're able to save for it. I don't think this is sustainable for much longer.

Apocryphon 9y ago

I'm wondering where's the equivalent for California. Sacramento is too significant and big a city to be comparable. I'm thinking Bakersfield and Elk Grove. http://kedc.com/kern-county-fast-becoming-a-mecca-for-millennials/ http://kedc.com/kern-county-fast-becoming-a-mecca-for-millen... https://www.marketwatch.com/story/4-cities-where-millennials-actually-act-like-grown-ups-2017-01-10 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/4-cities-where-millennials...

s0rce 9y ago
There are plenty of affordable smaller cities around California. I'm not sure if any of them are attracting younger people. I haven't spent much time in Bakersfield but it wasn't that bad, and the mountains are close. Palmdale/Lancaster might be good, some tech/aerospace out there, you have to like the desert though. Vacaville seems to have industry, mostly manufacturing. There are also plenty of smaller communities in the north state, not sure about jobs, probably none.
driverdan 9y ago
Why would you choose CA? Taxes alone will kill a large portion of your income no matter where you live. NY is the same way.
Mz 9y ago
I don't think there really is an equivalent in California. I searched for a small town with affordable housing and some minimal level of infrastructure. I found what I needed in another state. I work remotely, so my income is portable. I could potentially go anywhere in the US. I couldn't find anything in California that met my needs.

blacksqr 9y ago

It's funny how deeply they buried the lead in this article. The real story of Columbus is: stable manufacturing jobs + corporate commitment to community = good quality of life. This story is so alien to us now in America that we don't even recognize it when it's staring us in the face.

mlevental 9y ago
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/bury_the_lede https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/bury_the_lede

eric_b 9y ago

The financial crisis delayed the usual process of marriage, having children, and house buying for millenials. Instead of doing it in their mid/late 20's, they held off until late 20's/early 30s. Everyone likes to be young and in the city. It's fun. You can go out and have unlimited options for things to do, places to eat, etc. The exorbitant rent charges for luxury apartments is something that becomes unpalatable once you get sick of living with roommates, or want to have a family. As people get older they generally go out less and appreciate nature, personal space, and quiet more. (Obviously a generalization but in aggregate is true) It's also easier than ever to take an Uber in to the city, should you wish, to avoid parking and drinking and driving.

nfriedly 9y ago

My wife and I spent some time in the Bay Area in our twenties. It was nice and I'm glad we did it, but I am so happy that we moved back to a small town in Ohio before beginning to raise a family. SF is a nice place to visit, but Ohio is home. It definitely helps that programming can be done remotely, but I think I'd still prefer it here, even if it meant working for a local shop at half my current salary.

ljasdfasdfsdl 9y ago

I'm extremely envious of anyone who can tolerate those horrific climates, I'll remain unhappy in bay area until I can find a better climate to escape to.