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As a side note, the debate is not that simple. Vaccines work, but many vaccines are manufactured without what many would consider proper testing, and using toxi

As a side note, the debate is not that simple. Vaccines work, but many vaccines are manufactured without what many would consider proper testing, and using toxic substances banned in different countries. The debate is more about sloppy implementations than about the idea of vaccines as a whole. It's like someone is forcing the issue down to choosing poorly-regulated vaccines - or no vaccines at all. A false dichotomy.

acdha 9y ago
> As a side note, the debate is not that simple. Vaccines work, but many vaccines are manufactured without what many would consider proper testing, and using toxic substances banned in different countries. Those are big claims without any supporting evidence. From the sounds of it, you're repeating the anti-vax claims about mercury.
- Xeoncross 9y ago
  Ethyl vs Methyl mercury is one of the most popular debates (because mercury is scary!). Most vaccines switched to Thiomersal which has ethylmercury in it. However, even ethylmercury crosses the blood-brain barrier. Other 2 big ingredients are formaldehyde and aluminum. From there you have to get more specific about which vaccine you are talking about.
  - acdha 9y ago
    You still haven’t specified your claims. Which vaccines aren’t well tested? Which substances are included at levels known or suspected to be toxic, and by whom?
    - Xeoncross 9y ago
      My claim is about the debate itself, not about any certain vaccine or danger.
      - acdha 9y ago
        So far you're following the anti-vax script perfectly: lots of FUD, no claims specified in enough detail to even evaluate them much less counteract the overwhelming evidence that vaccines are a public good with no reputable downside.
        Xeoncross 9y ago
        I've been supplying information and you've been complaining. I fail to see how I'm at fault for trying to answer questions.
        Dylan16807 9y ago
        You didn't just talk about the debate. You stated as a fact that many vaccines have improper testing or substances. If you state something as a fact, you should be prepared to back it up.
        Xeoncross 9y ago
        > You stated as a fact You're putting words in my mouth. What I said was "...without what many would consider..." I'm still taking about the debate itself and you're trying to make this a binary debate about vaccination.
        acdha 9y ago
        You're still not supporting your claims. If, as you said, the debate is not that simple the onus is on you to justify the claim that there is in fact any significant debate over vaccination in the scientific community.
        Dylan16807 9y ago
        You stated toxicity as completely objective. (And you had better mean "toxic at the doses given", because anything is toxic in large-enough quantity.) > What I said was "...without what many would consider..." That's still calling them correct about the vaccines not meeting those standards. There are a lot of claims about vaccine testing that are objectively false. It's not that their standards are higher, it's that they falsely believe vaccines undergo less testing than they actually do. I don't want this to be a binary debate. I want you to quantify 'many' and provide actual evidence of anything.
  - adrr 9y ago
    There's more mecury in the fish you eat and it's the methyl kind which sticks around for weeks. If you eat fruit, there's methanol naturally present which the body metabolizes into formaldehyde. I am willing to bet your kid gets a higher dosage of formaldehyde from the juices they drink then a vaccine.
notheguyouthink 9y ago
> The debate is more about sloppy implementations than about the idea of vaccines as a whole. It's like someone is forcing the issue down to choosing poorly-regulated vaccines - or no vaccines at all. A false dichotomy This actually goes quite strongly against what I've observed though. Literally all of the anti-vaxxers I've met are 100% against vaccines. They are not vaccinated, nor are their children. They're not doing research and choosing to use some vaccines but not others. They're completely ignoring all vaccines.
sctb 9y ago
The guidelines ask us to eschew flamebait, which means to avoid it altogether—both making it and taking it. This is what happens. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

acdha 9y ago

> As a side note, the debate is not that simple. Vaccines work, but many vaccines are manufactured without what many would consider proper testing, and using toxic substances banned in different countries. Those are big claims without any supporting evidence. From the sounds of it, you're repeating the anti-vax claims about mercury.

Xeoncross 9y ago
Ethyl vs Methyl mercury is one of the most popular debates (because mercury is scary!). Most vaccines switched to Thiomersal which has ethylmercury in it. However, even ethylmercury crosses the blood-brain barrier. Other 2 big ingredients are formaldehyde and aluminum. From there you have to get more specific about which vaccine you are talking about.
- acdha 9y ago
  You still haven’t specified your claims. Which vaccines aren’t well tested? Which substances are included at levels known or suspected to be toxic, and by whom?
  - Xeoncross 9y ago
    My claim is about the debate itself, not about any certain vaccine or danger.
    - acdha 9y ago
      So far you're following the anti-vax script perfectly: lots of FUD, no claims specified in enough detail to even evaluate them much less counteract the overwhelming evidence that vaccines are a public good with no reputable downside.
      - Xeoncross 9y ago
        I've been supplying information and you've been complaining. I fail to see how I'm at fault for trying to answer questions.
        Dylan16807 9y ago
        You didn't just talk about the debate. You stated as a fact that many vaccines have improper testing or substances. If you state something as a fact, you should be prepared to back it up.
        Xeoncross 9y ago
        > You stated as a fact You're putting words in my mouth. What I said was "...without what many would consider..." I'm still taking about the debate itself and you're trying to make this a binary debate about vaccination.
        acdha 9y ago
        You're still not supporting your claims. If, as you said, the debate is not that simple the onus is on you to justify the claim that there is in fact any significant debate over vaccination in the scientific community.
        Dylan16807 9y ago
        You stated toxicity as completely objective. (And you had better mean "toxic at the doses given", because anything is toxic in large-enough quantity.) > What I said was "...without what many would consider..." That's still calling them correct about the vaccines not meeting those standards. There are a lot of claims about vaccine testing that are objectively false. It's not that their standards are higher, it's that they falsely believe vaccines undergo less testing than they actually do. I don't want this to be a binary debate. I want you to quantify 'many' and provide actual evidence of anything.
- adrr 9y ago
  There's more mecury in the fish you eat and it's the methyl kind which sticks around for weeks. If you eat fruit, there's methanol naturally present which the body metabolizes into formaldehyde. I am willing to bet your kid gets a higher dosage of formaldehyde from the juices they drink then a vaccine.

notheguyouthink 9y ago

> The debate is more about sloppy implementations than about the idea of vaccines as a whole. It's like someone is forcing the issue down to choosing poorly-regulated vaccines - or no vaccines at all. A false dichotomy This actually goes quite strongly against what I've observed though. Literally all of the anti-vaxxers I've met are 100% against vaccines. They are not vaccinated, nor are their children. They're not doing research and choosing to use some vaccines but not others. They're completely ignoring all vaccines.

sctb 9y ago

The guidelines ask us to eschew flamebait, which means to avoid it altogether—both making it and taking it. This is what happens. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html