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What is the correct move? Refuse to follow the law and withdraw from the market completely? How about when Apple removed apps from developers based in Iran bec

What is the correct move? Refuse to follow the law and withdraw from the market completely? How about when Apple removed apps from developers based in Iran because of US sanctions? https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/24/technology/apple-iran.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/24/technology/apple-iran.htm...

freehunter 9y ago
>Refuse to follow the law and withdraw from the market completely? Your tone of voice seems to indicate you don't think that's actually an option.
- MBCook 9y ago
  You can’t do that. It’s China. It’s one of the largest markets on Earth and Apple is a public company. Cook would immediately be fired by the board. They’d put someone new in, and that someone new would comply with China’s demand. And no one would be better off. As Cook says at least Apple does the best they can and holds the line on other things like encrypting iMessage.
  - chimeracoder 9y ago
    > You can’t do that. It’s China. It’s one of the largest markets on Earth and Apple is a public company. Cook would immediately be fired by the board. They’d put someone new in, and that someone new would comply with China’s demand. Somehow, that didn't happen when Google effectively withdrew from China.
    - beojan 9y ago
      Apple's business requires physical presence. Google's largely doesn't.
      - martinald 9y ago
        Yes. They also have all manufacturing there. I imagine if Apple did pull out it would be so embarrassing to the Chinese govt they would close the foxconn facilities too.
        MBCook 9y ago
        I hadn’t even thought of the manufacture angle. If Apple were to pull out, even if the board didn’t fire Cook for that... would they be able to make phones? Is ANYWHERE on Earth capable of that other than China? I suppose you could buy all the parts from China and have them shipped somewhere else to be assembled but what would that do to the cost of the devices? Would anyone buy an iPhone that starts at $1500 or $2000?
        ForHackernews 9y ago
        > Would anyone buy an iPhone that starts at $1500 or $2000? Probably, yeah. It doesn't seem like people mind paying $1000. It would just make it even more of a status symbol. Are iPhones a Veblen good?
        ariwilson 9y ago
        South Korea is capable of that.
        rtx 9y ago
        I think diversifying production base would all ready be in works.
    - djrogers 9y ago
      Google's revenue from China wasn't significant, and Google didn't withdraw because China wanted them to pull a few apps...
    - scarface74 9y ago
      How much of Google's revenue came from China?
  - zeveb 9y ago
    > Cook would immediately be fired by the board. They’d put someone new in, and that someone new would comply with China’s demand. That would indeed take courage and principles on Cook's part. If the board had courage & principles they wouldn't fire him. And if they did — they'd demonstrate what sort of men they are. > And no one would be better off. Tim Cook would have his self-respect.
    - MBCook 9y ago
      I imagine a lot of stock holders would move to replace the board if the board agreed with Cook. > Tim Cook would have his self-respect. I agree. And I hope he’d hold the line. But I think the people of China would be worse off. Stockholders would be worse off. Apple would be worse off, which means as an American buying heir products it might make them slightly worse for me.
danieldk 9y ago
What is the correct move? Refuse to follow the law and withdraw from the market completely? Which is what Google pretty much did: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_China#Ending_of_self-censorship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_China#Ending_of_self-ce...
- pilif 9y ago
  That way, Chinese people would be worse off security and privacy wise though. Think it through: Apple pulls out of China, the Chinese government makes the use of iPhones illegal, the Chinese people lose access to iPhones and with that to the secure enclave, end-to-end encrypted iMessage, secure boot, etc. So in the end, Chinese people wouldn't just lose 3rd party VPNs (the first party ones are AFAIK still present in iOS), they would lose all the security features. Is that still worth the moral stance?
joshuamorton 9y ago
>Refuse to follow the law and withdraw from the market completely? That's exactly what Google did: https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-approach-to-china.html https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-approach-to-chin...
- stingraycharles 9y ago
  Wasn’t that a response of one of their Chinese offices being hacked with the intention of corporate espionage? As far as I’m aware, from a privacy perspective, Google never had moral problems doing business in China. They’re just using it as a convenient excuse that makes them look good.
  - joshuamorton 9y ago
    >These attacks and the surveillance they have uncovered--combined with the attempts over the past year to further limit free speech on the web--have led us to conclude that we should review the feasibility of our business operations in China. We have decided we are no longer willing to continue censoring our results on Google.cn, and so over the next few weeks we will be discussing with the Chinese government the basis on which we could operate an unfiltered search engine within the law, if at all. In other words, government censorship and attempts by the government to undermine user privacy were ultimately what led to the move out of China. The straw does appear to have been the hack, but the ultimate goal of the hack appeared to be to steal user data. >Second, we have evidence to suggest that a primary goal of the attackers was accessing the Gmail accounts of Chinese human rights activists.

freehunter 9y ago

>Refuse to follow the law and withdraw from the market completely? Your tone of voice seems to indicate you don't think that's actually an option.

MBCook 9y ago
You can’t do that. It’s China. It’s one of the largest markets on Earth and Apple is a public company. Cook would immediately be fired by the board. They’d put someone new in, and that someone new would comply with China’s demand. And no one would be better off. As Cook says at least Apple does the best they can and holds the line on other things like encrypting iMessage.
- chimeracoder 9y ago
  > You can’t do that. It’s China. It’s one of the largest markets on Earth and Apple is a public company. Cook would immediately be fired by the board. They’d put someone new in, and that someone new would comply with China’s demand. Somehow, that didn't happen when Google effectively withdrew from China.
  - beojan 9y ago
    Apple's business requires physical presence. Google's largely doesn't.
    - martinald 9y ago
      Yes. They also have all manufacturing there. I imagine if Apple did pull out it would be so embarrassing to the Chinese govt they would close the foxconn facilities too.
      - MBCook 9y ago
        I hadn’t even thought of the manufacture angle. If Apple were to pull out, even if the board didn’t fire Cook for that... would they be able to make phones? Is ANYWHERE on Earth capable of that other than China? I suppose you could buy all the parts from China and have them shipped somewhere else to be assembled but what would that do to the cost of the devices? Would anyone buy an iPhone that starts at $1500 or $2000?
        ForHackernews 9y ago
        > Would anyone buy an iPhone that starts at $1500 or $2000? Probably, yeah. It doesn't seem like people mind paying $1000. It would just make it even more of a status symbol. Are iPhones a Veblen good?
        ariwilson 9y ago
        South Korea is capable of that.
        rtx 9y ago
        I think diversifying production base would all ready be in works.
  - djrogers 9y ago
    Google's revenue from China wasn't significant, and Google didn't withdraw because China wanted them to pull a few apps...
  - scarface74 9y ago
    How much of Google's revenue came from China?
- zeveb 9y ago
  > Cook would immediately be fired by the board. They’d put someone new in, and that someone new would comply with China’s demand. That would indeed take courage and principles on Cook's part. If the board had courage & principles they wouldn't fire him. And if they did — they'd demonstrate what sort of men they are. > And no one would be better off. Tim Cook would have his self-respect.
  - MBCook 9y ago
    I imagine a lot of stock holders would move to replace the board if the board agreed with Cook. > Tim Cook would have his self-respect. I agree. And I hope he’d hold the line. But I think the people of China would be worse off. Stockholders would be worse off. Apple would be worse off, which means as an American buying heir products it might make them slightly worse for me.

danieldk 9y ago

What is the correct move? Refuse to follow the law and withdraw from the market completely? Which is what Google pretty much did: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_China#Ending_of_self-censorship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_China#Ending_of_self-ce...

pilif 9y ago
That way, Chinese people would be worse off security and privacy wise though. Think it through: Apple pulls out of China, the Chinese government makes the use of iPhones illegal, the Chinese people lose access to iPhones and with that to the secure enclave, end-to-end encrypted iMessage, secure boot, etc. So in the end, Chinese people wouldn't just lose 3rd party VPNs (the first party ones are AFAIK still present in iOS), they would lose all the security features. Is that still worth the moral stance?

joshuamorton 9y ago

>Refuse to follow the law and withdraw from the market completely? That's exactly what Google did: https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-approach-to-china.html https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-approach-to-chin...

stingraycharles 9y ago
Wasn’t that a response of one of their Chinese offices being hacked with the intention of corporate espionage? As far as I’m aware, from a privacy perspective, Google never had moral problems doing business in China. They’re just using it as a convenient excuse that makes them look good.
- joshuamorton 9y ago
  >These attacks and the surveillance they have uncovered--combined with the attempts over the past year to further limit free speech on the web--have led us to conclude that we should review the feasibility of our business operations in China. We have decided we are no longer willing to continue censoring our results on Google.cn, and so over the next few weeks we will be discussing with the Chinese government the basis on which we could operate an unfiltered search engine within the law, if at all. In other words, government censorship and attempts by the government to undermine user privacy were ultimately what led to the move out of China. The straw does appear to have been the hack, but the ultimate goal of the hack appeared to be to steal user data. >Second, we have evidence to suggest that a primary goal of the attackers was accessing the Gmail accounts of Chinese human rights activists.