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The War Against Pope Francis

103 points by dcow 9y ago

pavlov 9y ago
It's kind of interesting to read Breitbart comments on any article related to Pope Francis. A few posters are convinced he is literally the Antichrist. Many others feel the Pope is not Catholic (which of course is impossible by definition). In 1998, a small group of American Catholic separatists elected one of their own as Pope Pius XIII: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucian_Pulvermacher https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucian_Pulvermacher I wonder if something similar is around the corner. The mood in America certainly has long been towards creation of shadow structures that ensure you don't have to meet with anyone who disagrees politically.
- achamayou 9y ago
  There was pushback after Vatican II, resulting in quite a few splinter groups, even in Europe (eg. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_Saint_Pius_X https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_Saint_Pius_X). Unless Pope Francis makes significant changes officially, I’m not sure this would happen again, regardless of his popularity.
  - markvdb 9y ago
    There is still a lot of activity around the Piux X society. They're allying themselves with partners like the Parti de la France, Jean-Marie Le Pen and friends, and organising themselves around organisations like Civitas[0], the "European party" Coalition pour la Vie et la Famille [1], etcetera. The Front National is not sufficiently right wing and conservative for many of the people around them, and they at least reek of antisemitism... Have a look at how Civitas and the "Coalition pour la Vie et la Famille" grabbed 500k€ of European parliament subsidies for its "European policital party" with as members a hodgepodge of a Greek neonazi MP, a Slovak neofascist MP, a Polish extreme right wing populist, ... and one Latvian social democrat [2]. But now I'm really starting to digress from the topic I guess... [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civitas_(movement) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civitas_(movement) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_pour_la_Vie_et_la_Famille https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_pour_la_Vie_et_la_Fa... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mihails_Zem%C4%BCinskis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mihails_Zem%C4%BCinskis
    - achamayou 9y ago
      Yes, unfortunately I know more than I wish I did about their activities. In the grand scheme of things though, i thing their influence is waning.
- riffraff 9y ago
  > Many others feel the Pope is not Catholic (which of course is impossible by definition). interestingly enough this could make sense (although quite likely not in the case of Breitbart commenters). For example, the eastern orthodox church, like the roman church, defines itself as "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic", so an eastern orthodox christian may well refer to itself as "catholic" while denying the Pope is. This seem to be the reason that in some places people often refer to "catholic" as "roman catholic".
  - acqq 9y ago
    Looking at the original meanings of the words: catholic means simply "universal" (as in "in charge of the Universe") and orthodox means "having the right belief" (right as opposed to wrong, not to the left). Only the later use of the words in some specific parts of the world gave some new (today often automatically assumed) meanings (created in the lands of their old opponents). The "orthodox" churches are proud to have "the right belief" and they don't think about the newer less positive meanings. They also consider themselves, of course "universal" because they used the very term before the schism too. Unsurprisingly both modern "Catholics" and "Orthodox" churches claim that their influence is "worldwide" and that they are right.
  - Aqwis 9y ago
    > This seem to be the reason that in some places people often refer to "catholic" as "roman catholic". That's not really why, is it -- it's because there are also the Eastern Catholic (as opposed to Eastern Orthodox) churches that recognize the Pope as the leader of the Church while using different rites (including allowing married men to be priests).
    - Gupie 9y ago
      There are also Anglican Catholics that believe basically the same doctrine as Roman Catholics but have the Queen of England as head instead of the Pope.
  - emmelaich 9y ago
    > while denying the Pope is .. So you probably can't use the old "Is the Pope a Catholic?" line anymore. Back to the bears.
throwawaypope 9y ago
Can the Pope have his enemies killed and not be prosecuted if it's in Vatican City?
jacquesm 9y ago
Pope Francis is a good guy leading an utterly corrupt institution. In the US there are many voices about the 'deep state' trying hard to subvert Trump (in my opinion a good thing). Within the Catholic Church the same phenomenon at work is doing everything it can to halt progress and to stay firmly stuck in the past. Francis probably won't live long enough to cement his legacy in such a way that it can not be undone. I have mixed feelings about this, on the one hand I'd like for the Church to take a more modern approach to their interaction with their subjects because they are causing a tremendous amount of grief in people's lives. At the same time I can't wait to see their end (most likely not within my lifetime) and the harder the line they draw the more people will come to their senses and abandon this group of lying, disconnected old men.
- gaius 9y ago
  Pope Francis is a good guy leading an utterly corrupt institution How does a "good guy" reach the top of a "corrupt institution", passing all the gates along the way, presumably guarded by utterly corrupt people?
  - jonah 9y ago
    Because the majority of his electors (the College of Cardinals) are also good guys. (The article places conservative dissenters at the recent synods at 1/4 - 1/3.)
    - pavlov 9y ago
      Curiously that 25-34% range is the same as the support enjoyed by populist political groups in many European countries, and also the same as Trump's approval rating in the US. It seems like there's a conservative third of populations that increasingly seeks to isolate itself from the mainstream (or political center, or whatever you want to call it).
  - js8 9y ago
    Because they are so corrupt that they can't agree which one of them should be the boss, so they choose an idealist as a compromise, in hope they will control him.
_Codemonkeyism 9y ago
[Removed]
- zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago
  Why would you possibly want to stay with him, given that the defining goal of the institution is to keep you stuck in a broken epistemology regardless?
Void_ 9y ago
Please keep in mind that this article is full of inaccurate information torn out of context. The gay situation is a good example. Pope Francis has shown love and understanding towards LGBT group, just like shows towards any other group of people experiencing hardship. He genuinely loves others, like most of Catholic priests and nuns do - that’s why they chose the carreer path of serving others. I’m saying most, because there are exceptions and sadly we only read about the exceptions. Pope Francis never said anything that wouldn’t be 100% aligned with the teaching of church. Never. He has shown sympathy and love, nothing more.
andrewclunn 9y ago
Sexual repression and fairy sky man or destructive neo Marxist economic and social theories. Typically we have to choose between these two forms of stupid. Pope Francis however, he gives us the option to go full retard and have both.
brian-armstrong 9y ago
The wider issue, of course, is that the entire dogma is a fiction without any basis in reality. Arguing over direction to preserve attendance may be pointless if you've built an organization around a fairy tale.
- aaron-lebo 9y ago
  It has some basis in reality and affects some 1 billion lives. I'm sure you believe only 100% true, non dogmatic things. Your comment is pretentious and shallow.
  - brian-armstrong 9y ago
    The fact that it affects a billion people and is built on falsehoods should be cause for concern.
    - TeMPOraL 9y ago
      So is politics, and most of the other groups humans form or consider themselves to be members of. This might be a bug, or might be a feature, but is not in any way unique to religion. It's how human tribes work.
  - cjsuk 9y ago
    Doesn’t mean it’s wrong!
  - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago
    Whether it has some basis in reality is besides the point. The defining characteristic of a religious institution is that it promotes faith as an epistemology, thus explicitly encouraging people to engage in more irrationality.
    - aaron-lebo 9y ago
      Was hoping that people that see themselves as enlightened and rational would recognize the complete lack of nuance or reality in statements like "entire dogma is a fiction without any basis in reality". You don't believe that's simplistic? Is that a way to jumpstart useful dialog about that institution?
jonah 9y ago
There's a bit of imprecision near the beginning of the article of which clarification is only hinted at by the end and might be missed by those not familiar with the details. "Last year, one cardinal, backed by a few retired colleagues, raised the possibility of a formal declaration of heresy – the willful rejection of an established doctrine of the church, a sin punishable by excommunication. Last month, 62 disaffected Catholics, ...published an open letter that accused Francis of seven specific counts of heretical teaching. "To accuse a sitting pope of heresy is the nuclear option in Catholic arguments. Doctrine holds that the pope cannot be wrong when he speaks on the central questions of the faith; so if he is wrong, he can’t be pope." Popes write and say a lot of things but only a special few are elevated to the level of doctrine. Pope Francis' footnotes on divorce aren't an official proclamation. (Though the article hints that he's working in that direction.) Infallible[0] statements defining doctrine are made Ex Cathedra - From the Chair of St. Peter[1] which he hasn't done. So, in reality the conservative faction are protesting something which hasn't yet happened. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility#Ex_cathedra https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility#Ex_cathedr...
- gadders 9y ago
  There was an interesting podcast on the BBC World Service that covered the letter and whether the Pope is really Catholic: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3csv1c3 http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3csv1c3
- hydrox24 9y ago
  > The conservative faction are protesting something which hasn't yet happened. This is a fact, but not really true in the sense you mean it. The conservative faction were rubbed the wrong way by the footnote. The issue is that while it is not a proclamation of doctrine, it has been pointed to as justification for some German and Latin American bishops' administering of communion to the divorced. The real problem is that Francis has remained silent when asked for clarification on the footnote, and whether or not it changed doctrine. Clarification was first requested officially (though privately) by a couple of bishops, and when no response was given for several months, those bishops published the letter to put further pressure on Francis to issue a clarification one way or the other[0]. The letter reads as a very polite request for clarification. This went without response. In addition, there is some evidence that bishops have been privately directed to interpret the footnote in the 'heretical' sense. The evidence for this is laid out in the filial correction itself (see [1]). The most recent document, referenced in the Guardian article as accusing Francis of spreading heresies, can be read here[1]. I would encourage anyone reading this to do so. The document, along with the rest of the 'protesting' happening across the conservative side of the spectrum, isn't so much in response to a change in doctrine via dictum, but instead a response to the lack of clarification, and Francis' allowing (or even encouraging) a de facto change in doctrine. [0]: http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2016/11/14/full-text-cardinals-letter-to-pope-francis-on-amoris-laetitia/ http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2016/11/14/full-text-ca... [1]: http://www.correctiofilialis.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Correctio-filialis_English_1.pdf http://www.correctiofilialis.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/...
jonah 9y ago
Another point of clarity is that Annulments are easier to get than is implied by the article. It's a process, but you don't have to be wealthy or powerful. (As an aside, the whole concept of declaring a previous marriage invalid - for various reasons - seems like it's a hack in the HN sense of the word.)
sigi45 9y ago
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Live will continue on our world whatever Pope Francis is doing or anyone else in the catholic church.
- erikb 9y ago
  Not 100% false, but you could put that argument under any HN discussion, which makes it rather pointless in itself. If that's a strong opinion of yours consider not reading HN. ;-)
  - sigi45 9y ago
    Perhaps but most of those topics i read here, are not about some Pope.
jlebrech 9y ago
Pope Francis shits all over Catholicism yet in the same breath defends Islam. If you follow the Bible to the letter you get Hasidic Jews or Catholics, if you follow the Quran to the letter you get radical islam.
- pjc50 9y ago
  Biblical literalism is a characteristic of some Protestant groups, not Catholicism; the treatment of the Apocrypha is relevant to this.
- ssijak 9y ago
  If you follow bible to the letter (including old testament) you get Hitler.
  - jlebrech 9y ago
    that's not true, if you follow Martin Luther you do.
anm89 9y ago
The catholic church seems to be right behind the republican party and mexican drug cartels in terms of ethics. What an absolutely disgusting institution.
NiklasMort 9y ago
Pope Francis is what Bernie Sanders would be as US President.
mathw 9y ago
A Catholic friend of mine really does not like what Pope Francis is doing. Really, really does not like it. I haven't asked him for details, because we have to work together in a music group and if we fall out the chances are the whole thing stops happening (it's a very small group playing instruments very few people can play). But it worries me, because as far as I can tell Pope Francis is quite keen on being nice to people, and showing mercy and forgiveness. I thought those were central tenets of Christian teaching. Of course, as an atheist, I can't really comment, other than the slightly surreal nature of all these people worrying about interpretations of a fictional document and inspirations from a non-existent entity. In fact, this kind of thing could be taken as further evidence that God is a fiction.
- camillomiller 9y ago
  My Grandma, back in Italy, despises him too, but still respects him. She has his picture on her bedside table, nonetheless, because of course he's still the Pope. Her rationale is simple: the Pope should be a detached quasi-divine figure: from her old Italian woman point of view he's pope-ing wrong. But again, he's still the Pope, so "he must be right".
  - b0rsuk 9y ago
    Your grandma has class. Poles who don't like Francis (i.e. most of them) don't have a photo of him, and don't respect him. When he was on a pilgrimage in Poland, church-related media focused on everything except what he was saying.
    - krotton 9y ago
      I think "most of them" is quite a stretch. There indeed is a faction in Poland despising (or openly opposing) Francis, but from what I've witnessed, they seem to be a (vocal) minority. Anyway, that's from an atheist point of view, so probably not very informed.
- FloatingGhost 9y ago
  tips fedora
__BrianDGLS__ 9y ago
As a Catholic this is news to me. I like the Pope, thought he was good. In fact I haven't heard any other Catholics I know criticize him. I feel this article is trying to "Stir up a storm" with sensational language. There is little behind this in my opinion.
- 0x4f3759df 9y ago
  What Francis Really Believes (4th Edition) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvjmveYw0tE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvjmveYw0tE
- labster 9y ago
  I can only assume you're in a bubble, then. Perhaps me too. But Francis' actions only make sense in the context of meeting stiff resistance from some parts of the church, therefore by Occam's razor someone must be doing the resisting. Any institution as large and old as the Church (and there are very few peers) has a huge amount of institutional inertia, and being brought in specifically to be a reformer was bound to earn him some enemies.
- masklinn 9y ago
  > As a Catholic this is news to me. I like the Pope, thought he was good. In fact I haven't heard any other Catholics I know criticize him. It's possible that the catholics you hang out with are not the most conservative factions (e.g. the ones who still gnash teeth over Vatican II), which are the ones fuming over Francis.
- Toboe 9y ago
  > In fact I haven't heard any other Catholics I know criticize him. >I feel this article is trying to "Stir up a storm" with sensational language. There is little behind this in my opinion. While i can't speak about the part of catholics you know, nor about conservative wings of the catholic church (and the size of said wing), there are atleast some US-Conservatives claiming to be catholic with grievances about the pope: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/12/04/pope-francis-is-catholic-churchs-obama-god-help-us.html http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/12/04/pope-francis-is-ca...
- 9y ago
singularity2001 9y ago
Interesting, in my circles he is regarded almost as a hero.
labster 9y ago
As a Lutheran celebrating the quinicentennial of the 95 Theses this week, it always surprises me how far behind the times the Roman Catholic leadership can be. They're still dealing with some of the original causes of the Reformation, including celibacy, divorce, favoritism to the rich, and worship in the vernacular. Jorge Bergoglio is a good person. I feel like he hears the Holy Spirit, unlike the members of the curia from the "no new rules" camp. But I'm okay with new rules, being a member of the original revolutionary church. My group still has a lot of the old rules, but the rules should never get in the way of bringing a person into the grace of God. Latin mass is pretty neat, and makes for some great canting opportunities, but if you give it to a group of people who can't understand, how does that open a person's heart? How does excluding people who sin make sense in the context of everyone being a sinner? Denying reality is like denying a part of Creation; denying access to the community drives people into the ranks of the atheists. And hey, at least they don't use faith as a cudgel against reality. So, I wish Pope Francis the best of luck, and I hope that he can bring his branch of the church into a more loving, contemporary group.
- zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago
  > As a Lutheran celebrating the quinicentennial of the 95 Theses this week, it always surprises me how far behind the times the Roman Catholic leadership can be. Your sect still subscribes to faith as an epistemology, right? Given that that is pretty well known to be an unreliable method to obtain knowledge, and you still subscribe to it, how can you be surprised that other people are equally behind on minor details that you happen to get right?
- b0rsuk 9y ago
  It shouldn't surprise you. Catholic branch is the most orthodox branch of Christianity. It's the one that resisted Reformation and all other attempts at change. Times change, so at least some teachings of a religion should change with them.
YouAreGreat 9y ago
> his support for migrants, his attacks on global capitalism As only one of these can be sincere given the other, the commenters who suspect that the Pope is just very good at looking like the good guy are probably right.
72deluxe 9y ago
"In the years immediately after the council, nuns discarded their habits, priests discovered women (more than 100,000 left the priesthood to marry)" This position on marriage for priests is intriguing. Even Peter was married - see Matthew 8:14 (why would Peter have a mother-in-law if he wasn't married...?). And why does Paul warn about people who will say that you cannot marry? (1 Timothy 4:3) ??? "in this struggle it has been forced into the defence of an untenable absolutist position, whereby ..... all sex outside one lifelong marriage" is banned. "As Francis recognises, that’s not how people actually behave." This is not true. Just because many people do not stick to their beliefs does not make the beliefs invalid, nor does it mean you should adopt the common mis-practice. Like the Oxford versus Collins dictionary - Oxford tells you what the word means and how it should be used; Collins tells you how people typically use it (which might be an abuse of the word or incorrect usage). I'd rather go with Oxford. Who of us likes ignoring our programming language specs and then argue that the compiler is wrong? BTW I am not Catholic.

103 points by dcow 9y ago

It's kind of interesting to read Breitbart comments on any article related to Pope Francis. A few posters are convinced he is literally the Antichrist. Many others feel the Pope is not Catholic (which of course is impossible by definition). In 1998, a small group of American Catholic separatists elected one of their own as Pope Pius XIII: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucian_Pulvermacher https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucian_Pulvermacher I wonder if something similar is around the corner. The mood in America certainly has long been towards creation of shadow structures that ensure you don't have to meet with anyone who disagrees politically.

achamayou 9y ago
There was pushback after Vatican II, resulting in quite a few splinter groups, even in Europe (eg. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_Saint_Pius_X https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_Saint_Pius_X). Unless Pope Francis makes significant changes officially, I’m not sure this would happen again, regardless of his popularity.
- markvdb 9y ago
  There is still a lot of activity around the Piux X society. They're allying themselves with partners like the Parti de la France, Jean-Marie Le Pen and friends, and organising themselves around organisations like Civitas[0], the "European party" Coalition pour la Vie et la Famille [1], etcetera. The Front National is not sufficiently right wing and conservative for many of the people around them, and they at least reek of antisemitism... Have a look at how Civitas and the "Coalition pour la Vie et la Famille" grabbed 500k€ of European parliament subsidies for its "European policital party" with as members a hodgepodge of a Greek neonazi MP, a Slovak neofascist MP, a Polish extreme right wing populist, ... and one Latvian social democrat [2]. But now I'm really starting to digress from the topic I guess... [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civitas_(movement) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civitas_(movement) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_pour_la_Vie_et_la_Famille https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_pour_la_Vie_et_la_Fa... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mihails_Zem%C4%BCinskis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mihails_Zem%C4%BCinskis
  - achamayou 9y ago
    Yes, unfortunately I know more than I wish I did about their activities. In the grand scheme of things though, i thing their influence is waning.
riffraff 9y ago
> Many others feel the Pope is not Catholic (which of course is impossible by definition). interestingly enough this could make sense (although quite likely not in the case of Breitbart commenters). For example, the eastern orthodox church, like the roman church, defines itself as "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic", so an eastern orthodox christian may well refer to itself as "catholic" while denying the Pope is. This seem to be the reason that in some places people often refer to "catholic" as "roman catholic".
- acqq 9y ago
  Looking at the original meanings of the words: catholic means simply "universal" (as in "in charge of the Universe") and orthodox means "having the right belief" (right as opposed to wrong, not to the left). Only the later use of the words in some specific parts of the world gave some new (today often automatically assumed) meanings (created in the lands of their old opponents). The "orthodox" churches are proud to have "the right belief" and they don't think about the newer less positive meanings. They also consider themselves, of course "universal" because they used the very term before the schism too. Unsurprisingly both modern "Catholics" and "Orthodox" churches claim that their influence is "worldwide" and that they are right.
- Aqwis 9y ago
  > This seem to be the reason that in some places people often refer to "catholic" as "roman catholic". That's not really why, is it -- it's because there are also the Eastern Catholic (as opposed to Eastern Orthodox) churches that recognize the Pope as the leader of the Church while using different rites (including allowing married men to be priests).
  - Gupie 9y ago
    There are also Anglican Catholics that believe basically the same doctrine as Roman Catholics but have the Queen of England as head instead of the Pope.
- emmelaich 9y ago
  > while denying the Pope is .. So you probably can't use the old "Is the Pope a Catholic?" line anymore. Back to the bears.

throwawaypope 9y ago

Can the Pope have his enemies killed and not be prosecuted if it's in Vatican City?

jacquesm 9y ago

Pope Francis is a good guy leading an utterly corrupt institution. In the US there are many voices about the 'deep state' trying hard to subvert Trump (in my opinion a good thing). Within the Catholic Church the same phenomenon at work is doing everything it can to halt progress and to stay firmly stuck in the past. Francis probably won't live long enough to cement his legacy in such a way that it can not be undone. I have mixed feelings about this, on the one hand I'd like for the Church to take a more modern approach to their interaction with their subjects because they are causing a tremendous amount of grief in people's lives. At the same time I can't wait to see their end (most likely not within my lifetime) and the harder the line they draw the more people will come to their senses and abandon this group of lying, disconnected old men.

gaius 9y ago
Pope Francis is a good guy leading an utterly corrupt institution How does a "good guy" reach the top of a "corrupt institution", passing all the gates along the way, presumably guarded by utterly corrupt people?
- jonah 9y ago
  Because the majority of his electors (the College of Cardinals) are also good guys. (The article places conservative dissenters at the recent synods at 1/4 - 1/3.)
  - pavlov 9y ago
    Curiously that 25-34% range is the same as the support enjoyed by populist political groups in many European countries, and also the same as Trump's approval rating in the US. It seems like there's a conservative third of populations that increasingly seeks to isolate itself from the mainstream (or political center, or whatever you want to call it).
- js8 9y ago
  Because they are so corrupt that they can't agree which one of them should be the boss, so they choose an idealist as a compromise, in hope they will control him.

_Codemonkeyism 9y ago

[Removed]

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago
Why would you possibly want to stay with him, given that the defining goal of the institution is to keep you stuck in a broken epistemology regardless?

Void_ 9y ago

Please keep in mind that this article is full of inaccurate information torn out of context. The gay situation is a good example. Pope Francis has shown love and understanding towards LGBT group, just like shows towards any other group of people experiencing hardship. He genuinely loves others, like most of Catholic priests and nuns do - that’s why they chose the carreer path of serving others. I’m saying most, because there are exceptions and sadly we only read about the exceptions. Pope Francis never said anything that wouldn’t be 100% aligned with the teaching of church. Never. He has shown sympathy and love, nothing more.

andrewclunn 9y ago

Sexual repression and fairy sky man or destructive neo Marxist economic and social theories. Typically we have to choose between these two forms of stupid. Pope Francis however, he gives us the option to go full retard and have both.

brian-armstrong 9y ago

The wider issue, of course, is that the entire dogma is a fiction without any basis in reality. Arguing over direction to preserve attendance may be pointless if you've built an organization around a fairy tale.

aaron-lebo 9y ago
It has some basis in reality and affects some 1 billion lives. I'm sure you believe only 100% true, non dogmatic things. Your comment is pretentious and shallow.
- brian-armstrong 9y ago
  The fact that it affects a billion people and is built on falsehoods should be cause for concern.
  - TeMPOraL 9y ago
    So is politics, and most of the other groups humans form or consider themselves to be members of. This might be a bug, or might be a feature, but is not in any way unique to religion. It's how human tribes work.
- cjsuk 9y ago
  Doesn’t mean it’s wrong!
- zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago
  Whether it has some basis in reality is besides the point. The defining characteristic of a religious institution is that it promotes faith as an epistemology, thus explicitly encouraging people to engage in more irrationality.
  - aaron-lebo 9y ago
    Was hoping that people that see themselves as enlightened and rational would recognize the complete lack of nuance or reality in statements like "entire dogma is a fiction without any basis in reality". You don't believe that's simplistic? Is that a way to jumpstart useful dialog about that institution?

jonah 9y ago

There's a bit of imprecision near the beginning of the article of which clarification is only hinted at by the end and might be missed by those not familiar with the details. "Last year, one cardinal, backed by a few retired colleagues, raised the possibility of a formal declaration of heresy – the willful rejection of an established doctrine of the church, a sin punishable by excommunication. Last month, 62 disaffected Catholics, ...published an open letter that accused Francis of seven specific counts of heretical teaching. "To accuse a sitting pope of heresy is the nuclear option in Catholic arguments. Doctrine holds that the pope cannot be wrong when he speaks on the central questions of the faith; so if he is wrong, he can’t be pope." Popes write and say a lot of things but only a special few are elevated to the level of doctrine. Pope Francis' footnotes on divorce aren't an official proclamation. (Though the article hints that he's working in that direction.) Infallible[0] statements defining doctrine are made Ex Cathedra - From the Chair of St. Peter[1] which he hasn't done. So, in reality the conservative faction are protesting something which hasn't yet happened. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility#Ex_cathedra https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility#Ex_cathedr...

gadders 9y ago
There was an interesting podcast on the BBC World Service that covered the letter and whether the Pope is really Catholic: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3csv1c3 http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3csv1c3
hydrox24 9y ago
> The conservative faction are protesting something which hasn't yet happened. This is a fact, but not really true in the sense you mean it. The conservative faction were rubbed the wrong way by the footnote. The issue is that while it is not a proclamation of doctrine, it has been pointed to as justification for some German and Latin American bishops' administering of communion to the divorced. The real problem is that Francis has remained silent when asked for clarification on the footnote, and whether or not it changed doctrine. Clarification was first requested officially (though privately) by a couple of bishops, and when no response was given for several months, those bishops published the letter to put further pressure on Francis to issue a clarification one way or the other[0]. The letter reads as a very polite request for clarification. This went without response. In addition, there is some evidence that bishops have been privately directed to interpret the footnote in the 'heretical' sense. The evidence for this is laid out in the filial correction itself (see [1]). The most recent document, referenced in the Guardian article as accusing Francis of spreading heresies, can be read here[1]. I would encourage anyone reading this to do so. The document, along with the rest of the 'protesting' happening across the conservative side of the spectrum, isn't so much in response to a change in doctrine via dictum, but instead a response to the lack of clarification, and Francis' allowing (or even encouraging) a de facto change in doctrine. [0]: http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2016/11/14/full-text-cardinals-letter-to-pope-francis-on-amoris-laetitia/ http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2016/11/14/full-text-ca... [1]: http://www.correctiofilialis.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Correctio-filialis_English_1.pdf http://www.correctiofilialis.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/...

jonah 9y ago

Another point of clarity is that Annulments are easier to get than is implied by the article. It's a process, but you don't have to be wealthy or powerful. (As an aside, the whole concept of declaring a previous marriage invalid - for various reasons - seems like it's a hack in the HN sense of the word.)

sigi45 9y ago

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Live will continue on our world whatever Pope Francis is doing or anyone else in the catholic church.

erikb 9y ago
Not 100% false, but you could put that argument under any HN discussion, which makes it rather pointless in itself. If that's a strong opinion of yours consider not reading HN. ;-)
- sigi45 9y ago
  Perhaps but most of those topics i read here, are not about some Pope.

jlebrech 9y ago

Pope Francis shits all over Catholicism yet in the same breath defends Islam. If you follow the Bible to the letter you get Hasidic Jews or Catholics, if you follow the Quran to the letter you get radical islam.

pjc50 9y ago
Biblical literalism is a characteristic of some Protestant groups, not Catholicism; the treatment of the Apocrypha is relevant to this.
ssijak 9y ago
If you follow bible to the letter (including old testament) you get Hitler.
- jlebrech 9y ago
  that's not true, if you follow Martin Luther you do.

anm89 9y ago

The catholic church seems to be right behind the republican party and mexican drug cartels in terms of ethics. What an absolutely disgusting institution.

NiklasMort 9y ago

Pope Francis is what Bernie Sanders would be as US President.

mathw 9y ago

A Catholic friend of mine really does not like what Pope Francis is doing. Really, really does not like it. I haven't asked him for details, because we have to work together in a music group and if we fall out the chances are the whole thing stops happening (it's a very small group playing instruments very few people can play). But it worries me, because as far as I can tell Pope Francis is quite keen on being nice to people, and showing mercy and forgiveness. I thought those were central tenets of Christian teaching. Of course, as an atheist, I can't really comment, other than the slightly surreal nature of all these people worrying about interpretations of a fictional document and inspirations from a non-existent entity. In fact, this kind of thing could be taken as further evidence that God is a fiction.

camillomiller 9y ago
My Grandma, back in Italy, despises him too, but still respects him. She has his picture on her bedside table, nonetheless, because of course he's still the Pope. Her rationale is simple: the Pope should be a detached quasi-divine figure: from her old Italian woman point of view he's pope-ing wrong. But again, he's still the Pope, so "he must be right".
- b0rsuk 9y ago
  Your grandma has class. Poles who don't like Francis (i.e. most of them) don't have a photo of him, and don't respect him. When he was on a pilgrimage in Poland, church-related media focused on everything except what he was saying.
  - krotton 9y ago
    I think "most of them" is quite a stretch. There indeed is a faction in Poland despising (or openly opposing) Francis, but from what I've witnessed, they seem to be a (vocal) minority. Anyway, that's from an atheist point of view, so probably not very informed.
FloatingGhost 9y ago
tips fedora

__BrianDGLS__ 9y ago

As a Catholic this is news to me. I like the Pope, thought he was good. In fact I haven't heard any other Catholics I know criticize him. I feel this article is trying to "Stir up a storm" with sensational language. There is little behind this in my opinion.

0x4f3759df 9y ago
What Francis Really Believes (4th Edition) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvjmveYw0tE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvjmveYw0tE
labster 9y ago
I can only assume you're in a bubble, then. Perhaps me too. But Francis' actions only make sense in the context of meeting stiff resistance from some parts of the church, therefore by Occam's razor someone must be doing the resisting. Any institution as large and old as the Church (and there are very few peers) has a huge amount of institutional inertia, and being brought in specifically to be a reformer was bound to earn him some enemies.
masklinn 9y ago
> As a Catholic this is news to me. I like the Pope, thought he was good. In fact I haven't heard any other Catholics I know criticize him. It's possible that the catholics you hang out with are not the most conservative factions (e.g. the ones who still gnash teeth over Vatican II), which are the ones fuming over Francis.
Toboe 9y ago
> In fact I haven't heard any other Catholics I know criticize him. >I feel this article is trying to "Stir up a storm" with sensational language. There is little behind this in my opinion. While i can't speak about the part of catholics you know, nor about conservative wings of the catholic church (and the size of said wing), there are atleast some US-Conservatives claiming to be catholic with grievances about the pope: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/12/04/pope-francis-is-catholic-churchs-obama-god-help-us.html http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/12/04/pope-francis-is-ca...
9y ago

singularity2001 9y ago

Interesting, in my circles he is regarded almost as a hero.

labster 9y ago

As a Lutheran celebrating the quinicentennial of the 95 Theses this week, it always surprises me how far behind the times the Roman Catholic leadership can be. They're still dealing with some of the original causes of the Reformation, including celibacy, divorce, favoritism to the rich, and worship in the vernacular. Jorge Bergoglio is a good person. I feel like he hears the Holy Spirit, unlike the members of the curia from the "no new rules" camp. But I'm okay with new rules, being a member of the original revolutionary church. My group still has a lot of the old rules, but the rules should never get in the way of bringing a person into the grace of God. Latin mass is pretty neat, and makes for some great canting opportunities, but if you give it to a group of people who can't understand, how does that open a person's heart? How does excluding people who sin make sense in the context of everyone being a sinner? Denying reality is like denying a part of Creation; denying access to the community drives people into the ranks of the atheists. And hey, at least they don't use faith as a cudgel against reality. So, I wish Pope Francis the best of luck, and I hope that he can bring his branch of the church into a more loving, contemporary group.

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago
> As a Lutheran celebrating the quinicentennial of the 95 Theses this week, it always surprises me how far behind the times the Roman Catholic leadership can be. Your sect still subscribes to faith as an epistemology, right? Given that that is pretty well known to be an unreliable method to obtain knowledge, and you still subscribe to it, how can you be surprised that other people are equally behind on minor details that you happen to get right?
b0rsuk 9y ago
It shouldn't surprise you. Catholic branch is the most orthodox branch of Christianity. It's the one that resisted Reformation and all other attempts at change. Times change, so at least some teachings of a religion should change with them.

YouAreGreat 9y ago

> his support for migrants, his attacks on global capitalism As only one of these can be sincere given the other, the commenters who suspect that the Pope is just very good at looking like the good guy are probably right.

72deluxe 9y ago

"In the years immediately after the council, nuns discarded their habits, priests discovered women (more than 100,000 left the priesthood to marry)" This position on marriage for priests is intriguing. Even Peter was married - see Matthew 8:14 (why would Peter have a mother-in-law if he wasn't married...?). And why does Paul warn about people who will say that you cannot marry? (1 Timothy 4:3) ??? "in this struggle it has been forced into the defence of an untenable absolutist position, whereby ..... all sex outside one lifelong marriage" is banned. "As Francis recognises, that’s not how people actually behave." This is not true. Just because many people do not stick to their beliefs does not make the beliefs invalid, nor does it mean you should adopt the common mis-practice. Like the Oxford versus Collins dictionary - Oxford tells you what the word means and how it should be used; Collins tells you how people typically use it (which might be an abuse of the word or incorrect usage). I'd rather go with Oxford. Who of us likes ignoring our programming language specs and then argue that the compiler is wrong? BTW I am not Catholic.