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From MailChimp's second post[1]: > More and more business owners are bringing up double opt-in. What they’ve been saying is that double opt-in is not an easy j

by Nition 9y ago

From MailChimp's second post[1]: > More and more business owners are bringing up double opt-in. What they’ve been saying is that double opt-in is not an easy journey for their customers. Some go so far as to say that double opt-in is “broken.” I would go so far as to say if customers cannot be bothered clicking one confirmation link in an email, they didn't really care about your newsletters. [1] https://blog.mailchimp.com/why-single-opt-in-and-an-update-for-our-eu-customers https://blog.mailchimp.com/why-single-opt-in-and-an-update-f...

danielfoster 9y ago
I used Mailchimp to collect email addresses for an beta user waitlist in 2015. I eventually used a work-around to disable double opt-in because so many users had signed up, never clicked the confirmation email, and were then confused why they never received access to our product when others had. As a user I also prefer single opt-in. If I sign up for something, I want to be signed up. Clicking confirmation links is an annoying extra step.
- caf 9y ago
  Here's the thing, though. As a user, if I start getting your mailing list emails because someone else decided to sign me up and there was no confirmation, I'm going to mark it as spam.
  - Gustomaximus 9y ago
    That should be a minimal number of cases, reduced further by having a big clear one click unsubscribe option. It always amazes me the business that make unsubscribing difficult. That is the real way to get placed in spam.
    - caf 9y ago
      Does anyone trust the unsubscribe link in apparent spam, though?
      - JohnTHaller 9y ago
        Many less technical folks do. If I never signed up, I'm absolutely not clicking an unsubscribe link.
      - hashmal 9y ago
        I'm pretty sure clicking the unsubscribe button says "hey, this email address you obtained is real and active!"
        rconti 9y ago
        That feels very "20 years ago" to me. They've got plenty of other ways. Don't get me wrong, I'm a bit careful with them but because I'm used to being signed up to lists by a handful of stupid people who don't know their email address, I can basically anticipate what regions of the world my spamlists will come from, and I generally have a good feel for what's legit or what's not. I use the unsubscribe link often for these things.
    - Pharaoh2 9y ago
      Too late, enough businesses have screwed up the unsubscribe system that now I mark every mail as spam and let the spam filters take care of it. I don't care if the unsubscribe links works or not, I already have a faster path.
    - JohnTHaller 9y ago
      I don't care how clear the unsubscribe option is, if I didn't specifically subscribe, it gets marked as spam and reported.
    - wlesieutre 9y ago
      I'm not clicking an unsubscribe button on something I didn't subscribe to. I have no way of knowing if it will unsubscribe me or if it will tell the sender "Hey guys! This is a real email address! Send him more spam!"
      - inetknght 9y ago
        ...or worse: send you to an infected URL and pwn you
      - akcreek 9y ago
        Clicking unsubscribe isn't the only way to know if the email is good. If your email client loads images then it will be known if you opened the email which will also give your IP, geolocation, device type, client name, user agent, etc. Depending on your email provider if you mark it as spam that could also be known by the sender if your provider supports the complaint feedback loop. Here are the docs to see what info is available when sending through mailgun. https://documentation.mailgun.com/en/latest/api-events.html#event-types https://documentation.mailgun.com/en/latest/api-events.html#...
        SAI_Peregrinus 9y ago
        Most clients don't load images by default. The big providers (gmail and the like) certainly don't.
        Flimm 9y ago
        With Gmail's web interface, it's more complicated than that. Images are loaded by default, but only through a proxy: Google's servers go fetch the image for you and then serve you the image. They only do this once you open the email. So you do leak whether you opened the email, but not your IP address, browser headers, etc. Here's a blog post from 2013 about it: https://blog.filippo.io/how-the-new-gmail-image-proxy-works-and-what-this-means-for-you/ https://blog.filippo.io/how-the-new-gmail-image-proxy-works-...
        akcreek 9y ago
    - brians 9y ago
      Why would that be minimal? If I’m your competitor, I’m going to sign up my colleague, and have him report you for spam. And I’m going to loop this until you lose your mailing privileges.
    - rconti 9y ago
      Should, but isn't. I have idiots who think they have my email address sign me up for shit constantly. Don't put the onus on me to unsubscribe from some scammy crap. I've never forgotten to opt in to something I actually wanted, so the "minimal number of cases" actually applies to double-opt-in being hard. The frequent use case is stupid or malicious people spamming me with a list owned by an irresponsible owner. Which is now turning into "every MailChimp list owner except those who actively opt out of this crappy system." Ironic.
  - make3 9y ago
    that never happens though
- tinus_hn 9y ago
  There is a guy who has a name similar to mine, who tends to enter my email address everywhere. So best case I just get his signup mails (multiple times because he doesn't understand why he doesn't get them). Worst case I'm signed up for yet another spam list. They better not be complaining that their reputation is bad because I keep reporting their unconfirmed junk. If clicking a link is too hard for you, tough.
JohnTHaller 9y ago
If it isn't confirmed opt-in, it's also possible your subscribers didn't even sign themselves up. Side note: Anyone who calls it double opt-in has a whiff of 'spammer' to them even if they're not. Confirmed opt-in is a more accurate term as without that confirmation click in the initial email, there's a chance the subscriber didn't sign themself up. There are quite a few 'email bomb' services that will sign a target email up for 1000s of 'single opt in' newsletters.
- erik_seaberg 9y ago
  This, and typos from people who can't quite spell their email address. We don't call username + password "double login" and username without password "single login" for the same reason.
- rconti 9y ago
  I even use the term "double opt-in" when ranting at companies that don't use it. I guess I'll switch terms to confirmed opt in, but I'd never heard of it until today, so I'd be careful with that brush.
  - JohnTHaller 9y ago
    If you were around and doing legit email newsletters 15 years ago or doing antispam configurations, the term was 'confirmed opt in' or 'verified opt in'. Email marketing firms schemed to use 'double opt in' to make it seem more onerous and draw attention away from the fact that 'single opt in' meant 'unverified opt in' that was vulnerable to email bombing utilities. Sadly, as the email marketing firms do most of the talking about it these days, many people only know the term 'double opt in'. But for folks like me that were both advising legit businesses on email newsletters and working with ISPs to block spam, 'double opt in' always harkens back to the code spammers or spammer-adjacent folks used.
    - hammock 9y ago
      I'm curious, how does the law, for example in Germany where it is required, call double opt-in/confirmed opt-in?
tmaly 9y ago
I have to say I welcome the double opt-in. There have been too many purchases online where I was signed up for a newsletter I did not ask for.

by Nition 9y ago

danielfoster 9y ago

I used Mailchimp to collect email addresses for an beta user waitlist in 2015. I eventually used a work-around to disable double opt-in because so many users had signed up, never clicked the confirmation email, and were then confused why they never received access to our product when others had. As a user I also prefer single opt-in. If I sign up for something, I want to be signed up. Clicking confirmation links is an annoying extra step.

caf 9y ago
Here's the thing, though. As a user, if I start getting your mailing list emails because someone else decided to sign me up and there was no confirmation, I'm going to mark it as spam.
- Gustomaximus 9y ago
  That should be a minimal number of cases, reduced further by having a big clear one click unsubscribe option. It always amazes me the business that make unsubscribing difficult. That is the real way to get placed in spam.
  - caf 9y ago
    Does anyone trust the unsubscribe link in apparent spam, though?
    - JohnTHaller 9y ago
      Many less technical folks do. If I never signed up, I'm absolutely not clicking an unsubscribe link.
    - hashmal 9y ago
      I'm pretty sure clicking the unsubscribe button says "hey, this email address you obtained is real and active!"
      - rconti 9y ago
        That feels very "20 years ago" to me. They've got plenty of other ways. Don't get me wrong, I'm a bit careful with them but because I'm used to being signed up to lists by a handful of stupid people who don't know their email address, I can basically anticipate what regions of the world my spamlists will come from, and I generally have a good feel for what's legit or what's not. I use the unsubscribe link often for these things.
  - Pharaoh2 9y ago
    Too late, enough businesses have screwed up the unsubscribe system that now I mark every mail as spam and let the spam filters take care of it. I don't care if the unsubscribe links works or not, I already have a faster path.
  - JohnTHaller 9y ago
    I don't care how clear the unsubscribe option is, if I didn't specifically subscribe, it gets marked as spam and reported.
  - wlesieutre 9y ago
    I'm not clicking an unsubscribe button on something I didn't subscribe to. I have no way of knowing if it will unsubscribe me or if it will tell the sender "Hey guys! This is a real email address! Send him more spam!"
    - inetknght 9y ago
      ...or worse: send you to an infected URL and pwn you
    - akcreek 9y ago
      Clicking unsubscribe isn't the only way to know if the email is good. If your email client loads images then it will be known if you opened the email which will also give your IP, geolocation, device type, client name, user agent, etc. Depending on your email provider if you mark it as spam that could also be known by the sender if your provider supports the complaint feedback loop. Here are the docs to see what info is available when sending through mailgun. https://documentation.mailgun.com/en/latest/api-events.html#event-types https://documentation.mailgun.com/en/latest/api-events.html#...
      - SAI_Peregrinus 9y ago
        Most clients don't load images by default. The big providers (gmail and the like) certainly don't.
        Flimm 9y ago
        With Gmail's web interface, it's more complicated than that. Images are loaded by default, but only through a proxy: Google's servers go fetch the image for you and then serve you the image. They only do this once you open the email. So you do leak whether you opened the email, but not your IP address, browser headers, etc. Here's a blog post from 2013 about it: https://blog.filippo.io/how-the-new-gmail-image-proxy-works-and-what-this-means-for-you/ https://blog.filippo.io/how-the-new-gmail-image-proxy-works-...
        akcreek 9y ago
  - brians 9y ago
    Why would that be minimal? If I’m your competitor, I’m going to sign up my colleague, and have him report you for spam. And I’m going to loop this until you lose your mailing privileges.
  - rconti 9y ago
    Should, but isn't. I have idiots who think they have my email address sign me up for shit constantly. Don't put the onus on me to unsubscribe from some scammy crap. I've never forgotten to opt in to something I actually wanted, so the "minimal number of cases" actually applies to double-opt-in being hard. The frequent use case is stupid or malicious people spamming me with a list owned by an irresponsible owner. Which is now turning into "every MailChimp list owner except those who actively opt out of this crappy system." Ironic.
- make3 9y ago
  that never happens though
tinus_hn 9y ago
There is a guy who has a name similar to mine, who tends to enter my email address everywhere. So best case I just get his signup mails (multiple times because he doesn't understand why he doesn't get them). Worst case I'm signed up for yet another spam list. They better not be complaining that their reputation is bad because I keep reporting their unconfirmed junk. If clicking a link is too hard for you, tough.

JohnTHaller 9y ago

If it isn't confirmed opt-in, it's also possible your subscribers didn't even sign themselves up. Side note: Anyone who calls it double opt-in has a whiff of 'spammer' to them even if they're not. Confirmed opt-in is a more accurate term as without that confirmation click in the initial email, there's a chance the subscriber didn't sign themself up. There are quite a few 'email bomb' services that will sign a target email up for 1000s of 'single opt in' newsletters.

erik_seaberg 9y ago
This, and typos from people who can't quite spell their email address. We don't call username + password "double login" and username without password "single login" for the same reason.
rconti 9y ago
I even use the term "double opt-in" when ranting at companies that don't use it. I guess I'll switch terms to confirmed opt in, but I'd never heard of it until today, so I'd be careful with that brush.
- JohnTHaller 9y ago
  If you were around and doing legit email newsletters 15 years ago or doing antispam configurations, the term was 'confirmed opt in' or 'verified opt in'. Email marketing firms schemed to use 'double opt in' to make it seem more onerous and draw attention away from the fact that 'single opt in' meant 'unverified opt in' that was vulnerable to email bombing utilities. Sadly, as the email marketing firms do most of the talking about it these days, many people only know the term 'double opt in'. But for folks like me that were both advising legit businesses on email newsletters and working with ISPs to block spam, 'double opt in' always harkens back to the code spammers or spammer-adjacent folks used.
  - hammock 9y ago
    I'm curious, how does the law, for example in Germany where it is required, call double opt-in/confirmed opt-in?

tmaly 9y ago

I have to say I welcome the double opt-in. There have been too many purchases online where I was signed up for a newsletter I did not ask for.