8 ms·

This is Hackathon Harassment

50 points by CodeLikeAGirl 9y ago

throwaway00088 9y ago
I don't see any harassment in anything he wrote. Here's what I see: Web Summit is next week, and Mark has made his case to the hackathon organizers that he should get the tickets and booth since he was actually on the team, and Kim doesn't want them. Kim, apparently out of spite, would prefer that the tickets go to some unrelated person she chooses. Now she's taking this dispute public. She hasn't named Mark yet, but people can deduce it. Does Mark want to wind up like any of the dozens of alleged perpetrators of sexual harassment and sexual assault that have been called out of the past two weeks? If not, he should let this thing drop and let her get her way. Kim is the real bully here.
program_whiz 9y ago
Sorry but this doesn't seem like harassment to me. Read his email without projecting any tone, it sounds totally reasonable. Your mentor also wasn't being sexist, he was suggesting you not start a startup by discarding the most passionate team member who helped write the prize-winning software. I'm not seeing the "you're a woman and I'm threatening you" anywhere. "By the way I designed cool t-shirts, you want one?" and "Lets not have any bad vibes due to this", doesn't sound like "Do what I want or I'll kill you." Maybe the guy is selfish, and intensely trying to "make it" (sounds like a young over-eager tech guy), but he's not threatening to attack or "victimizing" due to sexist views imo. If someone disagrees, please provide one shred of evidence. As best I can make out its summarized with the big-text quote midway through: "He didn’t use all caps. He didn’t swear. He didn’t yell. All he did was calmly… threaten. Subtly… insinuate. And distance himself from reality, little by little." I'm not impressed, the bar has been raised for claims of harassment and victimization. If you had spent your whole weekend working around the clock on a project that won the prize on your own code, only to be told your dreams were now crushed because you "weren't a good fit", you'd probably be begging to find a way to hold onto the tickets or the project as well, whether your boss was male or female. [Edit] And also, the mentors, the coordinators, the others in the posts all seem to agree that this isn't harassment. This really points to an issue with hackathons in general. You have people contributing to a "startup", then getting tickets to an expo, all without any contracts, just some verbal agreements -- these type of disagreements are bound to happen.
- MagicMouseTrap 9y ago
  This is exactly how I felt too; nowhere in his responses do I see any form or sexual harassment. Sure, the person is a little intense and doesn't seem to get the hint, but this isn't at all related to gender. There's absolutely no reason to pull gender into this at all. At what point does the line blur between needing special treatment because you're a different gender and equality? Edit: after rereading the article I realize my comment might've been a bit knee-jerky. However, I do feel the author puts emphasis on the gender of the people referenced in the story. Above all the line "I considered: what would a male CEO do in this situation?" feels like a forced focus on gender. But I concede; the article focusses on harassment in general, not sexual, mea culpa.
  - openasocket 9y ago
    Nowhere does the author claim this was sexual harassment, simply that it was harassment. It uses the word "sexism" once, and "sexist" twice, in both cases referring to the condescending response of mentors and others to her complaints about this person.
  - alexandercrohde 9y ago
    > At what point does the line blur between needing special treatment because you're a different gender and equality? Well, as I read this piece she's describing potentially abusive behavior, but not gender related. I read it as a shitstorm of over-intense personalities with optimistic dreams of being the next big thing creating an awful environment for eachother. Somebody of either gender could have a bitter ex-teammate who wants to undercut them. So I read this as a criticism of the atmosphere of hackathons rather than a women-in-tech issue. Now, the philosophical question is whether this distinction means I agree or disagree with the author.
    - CodeLikeAGirl 9y ago
      It isn't claiming to be sexual Harassment, but Harassment in general. This story would be equally awful it it happened to a man. However, a man wouldn't have to think about his personal safety as much by attending the event they won. So the result of the Harassment plays out differently for each gender.
aaron-lebo 9y ago
I understand I'm the wrong gender to be saying this, but I don't see harassment there. Maybe there was harassment (dozens of emails over a week could be it, but she never says what the emails say or even how much it is). It's just "harassment". I'm willing to believe that the guy was being threatening and harassing, but I also read into that evidence a guy who is socially inept and frustrating to work with, but not sure on the harassment part. A further example, when she texted one of the mentors, she got back: I am not trying to be too invasive in the reasons, but would like to know the reasons of the early split. To which she states: This mentor said he wasn’t trying to be invasive, but he was. Then she says that how they really should have responded was (edit: this is another actual response): Thanks for letting me know, [I’m] sure you had good reasons and I’m glad to hear that you’ll continue on with [Project]. OK, I get why you'd prefer the second response, but considering what happened, it's not rude for them to ask what's up, and they even padded that question so as to not be demanding. It's possible that's an unusual situation for them. I kind of get the feeling that neither person is really fun to work with, but that's based on what's in this blog post. I don't mean to be a jerk or victim blame or anything like that.
- openasocket 9y ago
  > I'm willing to believe that the guy was being threatening and harassing, but I also read into that evidence a guy who is socially inept and frustrating to work with, but not sure on the harassment part. Those aren't mutually exclusive. Harassment is an action, not an intent. You can harass someone because you are socially inept, but that doesn't mean you aren't harassing someone, and it explains the behavior but certainly doesn't excuse it. > Then she says that how they really should have responded was: That wasn't text of how she imagined he should have responded, that's a quote from an actual response she got from one of her mentors
  - leereeves 9y ago
    There's a difference between harassment and someone refusing to stop pursuing a legitimate claim. Is he a cofounder or an employee? Difficult question, but certainly a legitimate one.
- 9y ago
Osseric 9y ago
“If I go, how dangerous is he?” Yeah, because someone sending you emails is surely physically dangerous. Spooky men.
- CodeLikeAGirl 9y ago
  Based on our historic experience with men, if they treat us like that over email, it is probable they will treat us like that in person. His behaviour made her feel unsafe. Why would you knowing put yourself into an unsafe situation.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - pfarnsworth 9y ago
    Treat you like what? Where was the threat in the email? Did he call OP a "bitch", "slut", etc? Did he belittle her? He asked her for his share of the prize and said that if she didn't then he would pursue it unilaterally. Since when did that mean he was going to physically harm her? Sorry, I believe sexual harassment occurs in the tech industry and should be stamped out, but this is not a case of it.
    - orwin 9y ago
      Tis is NOT a case of sexual harassment. He might be unknowingly threatening (best case scenario, the one i believe), or downright manipulative, either way she do not want to work with him. He joined her on the project and she offered to give him 2 of the 3 tickets then he started his passive-agressive emails. I got those from people i worked with too, every time i just left the project (mainly because it was never mine). This type of passive-agressive behaviour exist very much in tech, mainly because this behaviour is related with self-entitlment and goes well with smug personnalities.
  - Osseric 9y ago
    Based on our historic experience with women, if they treat us like disposable collective garbage, it is probable that they will continue to do so. My point is that this inference of "always unsafe", and "always vigilant" is delusional. Sure, awful things happen constantly around the world, the probability of that at a hackathon related event? In a developed country? The only perceived threat is some emails? Do you not realize how silly it sounds to believe any of this is threatening? It just seems out of touch with actual victims.
startupdiscuss 9y ago
Not the most disturbing, but the strangest aspect, is how the truth of the matter kept getting lost and people who had no idea about what had happened held strong opinions. Makes me wonder how often this happens in other news items. I do want to know what happened with the tickets and the booth, though.
- uoaei 9y ago
  Look around this comment thread and you will see the exact same thing.
  - startupdiscuss 9y ago
    Didn't expect to be so prescient so soon.
  - jaxmurr 9y ago
    > Not the most disturbing, but the strangest aspect, is how the truth of the matter kept getting lost and people who had no idea about what had happened held strong opinions. The author quite thoroughly documented the entire ordeal (with screenshots and everything). I'm struggling to understand how this comment thread is an example of "the truth of the matter getting lost," when we have all the "evidence" of the "harassment," and are merely pointing out what we see?
    - spraak 9y ago
      Because most of the people commenting here seem to have not actually read the article. E.g. so many comments mention /sexual/ harassment, but the article was mostly focused on just harassment in general, and didn't claim that Mark's actions were explicitly sexual.
optimuspaul 9y ago
The responses here make me a little sick. Why are you all brushing off her experiences? Stop belittling this person.
- jaxmurr 9y ago
  Did you read the article? It uses the word "harassment" quite liberally, and belittles actual victims of harassment.
  - startupdiscuss 9y ago
    Harassment doesn't necessarily mean sexual harassment.
    - ohyoutravel 9y ago
      No one thinks that it does, in fact "sexual harassment" hadn't even crossed my mind. But based purely on what the author wrote (which seems comprehensive, complete with emails), I don't see harassment.
      - jasonlotito 9y ago
        Yes, people do. Here is one example. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15586109 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15586109
    - jaxmurr 9y ago
      Yes, and I'm not saying it does. I'm saying the article has no example of actual harassment. There was no name calling, no threats, and no abusive behavior. All I see is a potentially socially-inept guy trying to communicate, and someone reading way too much into his emails (she kept claiming the "threats were insinuated," really?).
      - startupdiscuss 9y ago
        The email isn't supposed to be proof of some kind of creepy behavior but proof of an unwillingness to leave the project.
ohyoutravel 9y ago
Really not trying to be a stick in the mud, and Mark does give me a little pause. However, there were only two people on this team, right? Which leads me to the conclusion that you were the PM (as you specifically say you're the project leader) and Mark was the engineer? I don't go to too many hackathons, but if it's you two only, that makes me think 50/50 split. I understand if you're parting ways, sure, but this seems like a legitimate complaint from a 50/50 split team: "While I understand the original idea was yours, I need you to understand that the prize we won together. […] That exhibition booth […] is as much mine as it is yours." And of course either of you can choose to leave the team unilaterally, but on a 50/50 team, it seems odd that one person can "fire" the other person and take all the benefits (minus one ticket) that the team won together. If we formed a 50/50 team, and a VC gave us a bunch of funding, and I told you I was firing you and giving you some of the VC money, you would be pretty miffed. If there's a booth to demonstrate things, then your statement here seems odd: "The tickets being offered were exactly what he would have gotten as a team member.." because there's more to the benefits of winning than a ticket to a conference or whatever. Additionally, you paint his email as harassment, but I really don't see it: https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/2000/1*DQAH9nLoO8yC4rwtK61hgQ.png https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/2000/1*DQAH9nLoO8yC4rwtK... I won't continue from there as hopefully you get the idea. And I'm not blaming you, but it really does not seem like harassment, despite the narrative you're painting. It makes me think you have some angle here, but someone shouldn't be "fired" and told to leave a project that they had a 50/50 stake in because you thought they were a little gruff.
- openasocket 9y ago
  From the Techstars FAQ: "Whether or not you continue to work on the idea with some or all of your team is completely up to you. Approximately 25% of Techstars Startup Weekend participants continue working on their idea with all of their team". She also gave him one of the 3 tickets, he just wouldn't be presenting the project in a booth and wouldn't continue working on the project.
  - nickelcitymario 9y ago
    This bit of the FAQ seems to encourage the very issue that led to this conflict... "How do teams address the issue of Intellectual Property/ownership?" "As with any startup, the team decides. Techstars Startup Weekend doesn’t support or take part in the signing of any legal documents at the events themselves, and while Mentors with legal backgrounds are often present and able to give general advice, they are not permitted to give specific legal counsel. While it doesn’t hurt to be clear about your individual expectations from the start, we’ve found that teams who don’t spend time addressing this issue until it actually matters (i.e., there is a tangible product to have ownership of) are much more productive and successful than those who do." ... By not addressing the exact nature of the agreement; by not making it clear that the expectation was that Mark was volunteering and thus giving away his talent; by not making it clear that he was expected to simply help and then go away when no longer wanted; by doing not doing these things up front, Mark was left to make his own assumptions. So bad on Mark, and bad on the author, IMHO. No wonder this ended badly. And more to the point, bad on Techstars for encouraging this.
pfarnsworth 9y ago
This is actually a clear case of someone who believes there's harassment where there is none, and it a step backwards for women who actually do encounter harassment. She refuses to take responsibility for her part in this, and instead blames others and "sexual harassment" because she doesn't think she's wrong. If men disagree with her, it's not because she's fundamentally wrong, of course, but because they are obviously sexist. Those are the worst type of people, and I've encountered many of this type, both men and women. Looking at it from the other side, she partnered with someone, and then after winning the prize, she kicked him out and denied him the ability to go to the next stage. And she didn't even have the decency to do it over phone, she emailed him. I don't see any evidence of harassment presented by the OP. If being upset at someone who seemingly took your work and prevented you from engaging in the winnings of your project equates to "harassment" or "sexism", then sure. But that means that a male can never confront her for her mistake lest it be sexism, which is ludicrous. Obviously, lying about OP going to Hong Kong or whatnot crosses the line and is inexcusable, but it sounds like he was trying to get the tickets which were forfeited anyway. I don't doubt that the guy in question was an asshole, but I don't see any evidence that he was a sexist asshole. And in fact, I think there's more evidence that SHE is the sexist. The funny thing is that she writes it right there and can't see her own sexism.
- orwin 9y ago
  harassment is not always sexual harassment. Now i think she read way to much into his emails but honestly, i would never work with a guy like this. Either he is "socially inapt" like other commenters said, either he is a very manipulative guy.
startupdiscuss 9y ago
There are two ways to read this article: 1. Be completely skeptical of the author's claims and demand proof. 2. Give the author the benefit of the doubt. I submit that when we ordinarily read an article, we do the second. We can't know what the other person did that was creepy or intense, but we have (presumably) all been in similar situations. The person snaps, or doesn't respond, or yells, or takes credit or any number of odious habits. For whatever reason, some people are inclined to not give this author the benefit of the doubt and, without being there, want to give this other person the benefit of the doubt. To them I would say this: imagine that you have an idea and recruit a technical person to help you with it. After a weekend, you tell them its not going to work for whatever reason. Maybe you just don't like the way they smell, or they go off on goofy tangents, or you don't like their puns, or they don't laugh at your jokes. I don't care. Its just one weekend and you don't want to work with them. You have a right to ask them not to work with you and move on. You didn't say this was forever. If the person refused to move one, what would you do?
- lostmsu 9y ago
  Did she pay though?
  - startupdiscuss 9y ago
    The agreement was that the work was voluntary. If you volunteer to fix my yard, and after a weekend, I tell you thanks but please leave, am I suddenly expected to pay for it?
    - openmosix 9y ago
      I'm not sure it has nothing to do with IP ownership. I "volunteer" to a million of opensource projects. However, I am not giving up IP ownership - they get transferred as part of the license associated with my work. In the absence of a license, I still retain 100% ownership of everything I have produced. There is a reason why every employment agreement requires to sign a special document where the employee transfer IP ownership to the company. In an "informal" setting, Mark is fully entitled to the intellectual ownership of his work (unless he signed a license or a IP transfer). In the current situation - from a pure legal standpoint - Mark could claim ownership of the project.
rmetzler 9y ago
I have a story to tell and I was kind of the Mark in your story. Except my brother was on the other end of the story and he got it all wrong which turned in both of us not talking with each other for more than a year. It wasn't a good time in my life and it's really hard to write about it. It also wasn't the first time, I was part of something, putting much work into the project and got fired from it. It's not nice to get fired after you volunteered to help someone with their project. Selfish people seem to think the success is their own and they own the project, because they had the idea, not recognizing that success is a team effort. Ok, my story: my brother is a lawyer, I'm a software developer. After finishing his degree, he decided to start his own law firm and I helped him to create his website including SEO, etc. He became very successful more or less over night. Before we had lived together in an apartment and there were weeks when we didn't eat much except rice and fishsauce, now he had the money to buy Macs and Porsches. The website was build with WordPress and several plugins, so I thought my job was it to update it as often as possible in order to not allow hackers to access his clients data or bring the site down. I didn't have any formal contract with my brother. In fact, he didn't really understood what I did - the site was finished as he saw it, why would he need an admin? He gave me gifts, often much bigger ones than I expected, but I didn't have much income. What I wanted was an income I could count on, even when it was a small one. I made the mistake and told him, I needed a contract to provide the work so nothing would happen to the site. He understood that all wrong and thought I was threatening him and the website. He went into panic mode instantly. In his panic he even changed passwords, including the MySQL password, but didn't know that he needed to change it in the WordPress config too. This brought his website down. Of course I helped him to recover the website, but we were mad about each other for month and didn't talk. I had a rough time, I was depressive and broke. I couldn't pay my health insurance and the fucking health insurance company was able to suspend my banking account. Not once, but thrice. The whole fight wasn't worth it. I know, this story doesn't has much to do with what has happend to OP, except one thing: Please try to talk to each other and understand the reasons why someone does something.
coreyp_1 9y ago
If they did not make an IP agreement, then don't they each own the code that they wrote? In effect, isn't she "stealing" the work and presenting it as her own? I see his objections to her IP and substantive theft (the code and IP, the booth presence and control over 1/2 of a ticket) as justified. His reaction may not be 100% blameless, either, but she is the original offender here. The worst part is that she tries to use a "harassment" accusation to justify her theft.
- amaranthine 9y ago
  Hi there - no code was written during the weekend. After consulting with a lawyer, we concluded the only "IP" was the original idea, which I pitched. The weekend was used exclusively for user research, concept validation, and some wireframing. (My partner's work - a mock website and logo - couldn't be used after the weekend.) Techstars has its own guidance regarding IP, but it's rather hand-wavey. I was surprised by this when I later found out that only 25% of teams continue working together. > "As with any startup, the team decides. Techstars Startup Weekend doesn’t support or take part in the signing of any legal documents at the events themselves, and while Mentors with legal backgrounds are often present and able to give general advice, they are not permitted to give specific legal counsel. While it doesn’t hurt to be clear about your individual expectations from the start, we’ve found that teams who don’t spend time addressing this issue until it actually matters (i.e., there is a tangible product to have ownership of) are much more productive and successful than those who do." https://startupweekend.org/attendees/faq https://startupweekend.org/attendees/faq
  - coreyp_1 9y ago
    I'm not buying it. IP is not limited to code. "the team decides". That is not what happened. You decided. The booth presence and the tickets are as much his as they are yours. If you decide to take them (and use them, give them away, or anything else) you are taking part of something that he has a right to. Again, I do not justify his response (as he is not here for me to address), but what should he have done in light of someone denying him access to something that is rightfully his? Just because you did not do your due diligence (because you didn't know that you should, or were inexperienced in hackathons, or whatever...) and you turned out to not like working with the other person, does not negate the work or award that the team accomplished together. Regret does not change anything.
jacknews 9y ago
I can't see what this has to do with 'harassment' especially as it's being gently couched to sound like sexual harassment ("powerless to stop him from invading my booth at the conference.", etc). I think the idea of these events is that everyone is volunteering their talent, and that includes the "project leader" and "their" idea. We hear enough on here about how ideas in themselves are all but worthless, so the result of the hackathon is really jointly owned by those participating, and I think the "volunteer guy" (and it seems that in her mind she could have just "hired" another objectified commodity-person, right?) has every right to be less than impressed at being summarily dismissed from a project he seems to have helped create.

50 points by CodeLikeAGirl 9y ago

I don't see any harassment in anything he wrote. Here's what I see: Web Summit is next week, and Mark has made his case to the hackathon organizers that he should get the tickets and booth since he was actually on the team, and Kim doesn't want them. Kim, apparently out of spite, would prefer that the tickets go to some unrelated person she chooses. Now she's taking this dispute public. She hasn't named Mark yet, but people can deduce it. Does Mark want to wind up like any of the dozens of alleged perpetrators of sexual harassment and sexual assault that have been called out of the past two weeks? If not, he should let this thing drop and let her get her way. Kim is the real bully here.

program_whiz 9y ago

Sorry but this doesn't seem like harassment to me. Read his email without projecting any tone, it sounds totally reasonable. Your mentor also wasn't being sexist, he was suggesting you not start a startup by discarding the most passionate team member who helped write the prize-winning software. I'm not seeing the "you're a woman and I'm threatening you" anywhere. "By the way I designed cool t-shirts, you want one?" and "Lets not have any bad vibes due to this", doesn't sound like "Do what I want or I'll kill you." Maybe the guy is selfish, and intensely trying to "make it" (sounds like a young over-eager tech guy), but he's not threatening to attack or "victimizing" due to sexist views imo. If someone disagrees, please provide one shred of evidence. As best I can make out its summarized with the big-text quote midway through: "He didn’t use all caps. He didn’t swear. He didn’t yell. All he did was calmly… threaten. Subtly… insinuate. And distance himself from reality, little by little." I'm not impressed, the bar has been raised for claims of harassment and victimization. If you had spent your whole weekend working around the clock on a project that won the prize on your own code, only to be told your dreams were now crushed because you "weren't a good fit", you'd probably be begging to find a way to hold onto the tickets or the project as well, whether your boss was male or female. [Edit] And also, the mentors, the coordinators, the others in the posts all seem to agree that this isn't harassment. This really points to an issue with hackathons in general. You have people contributing to a "startup", then getting tickets to an expo, all without any contracts, just some verbal agreements -- these type of disagreements are bound to happen.

MagicMouseTrap 9y ago
This is exactly how I felt too; nowhere in his responses do I see any form or sexual harassment. Sure, the person is a little intense and doesn't seem to get the hint, but this isn't at all related to gender. There's absolutely no reason to pull gender into this at all. At what point does the line blur between needing special treatment because you're a different gender and equality? Edit: after rereading the article I realize my comment might've been a bit knee-jerky. However, I do feel the author puts emphasis on the gender of the people referenced in the story. Above all the line "I considered: what would a male CEO do in this situation?" feels like a forced focus on gender. But I concede; the article focusses on harassment in general, not sexual, mea culpa.
- openasocket 9y ago
  Nowhere does the author claim this was sexual harassment, simply that it was harassment. It uses the word "sexism" once, and "sexist" twice, in both cases referring to the condescending response of mentors and others to her complaints about this person.
- alexandercrohde 9y ago
  > At what point does the line blur between needing special treatment because you're a different gender and equality? Well, as I read this piece she's describing potentially abusive behavior, but not gender related. I read it as a shitstorm of over-intense personalities with optimistic dreams of being the next big thing creating an awful environment for eachother. Somebody of either gender could have a bitter ex-teammate who wants to undercut them. So I read this as a criticism of the atmosphere of hackathons rather than a women-in-tech issue. Now, the philosophical question is whether this distinction means I agree or disagree with the author.
  - CodeLikeAGirl 9y ago
    It isn't claiming to be sexual Harassment, but Harassment in general. This story would be equally awful it it happened to a man. However, a man wouldn't have to think about his personal safety as much by attending the event they won. So the result of the Harassment plays out differently for each gender.

aaron-lebo 9y ago

I understand I'm the wrong gender to be saying this, but I don't see harassment there. Maybe there was harassment (dozens of emails over a week could be it, but she never says what the emails say or even how much it is). It's just "harassment". I'm willing to believe that the guy was being threatening and harassing, but I also read into that evidence a guy who is socially inept and frustrating to work with, but not sure on the harassment part. A further example, when she texted one of the mentors, she got back: I am not trying to be too invasive in the reasons, but would like to know the reasons of the early split. To which she states: This mentor said he wasn’t trying to be invasive, but he was. Then she says that how they really should have responded was (edit: this is another actual response): Thanks for letting me know, [I’m] sure you had good reasons and I’m glad to hear that you’ll continue on with [Project]. OK, I get why you'd prefer the second response, but considering what happened, it's not rude for them to ask what's up, and they even padded that question so as to not be demanding. It's possible that's an unusual situation for them. I kind of get the feeling that neither person is really fun to work with, but that's based on what's in this blog post. I don't mean to be a jerk or victim blame or anything like that.

openasocket 9y ago
> I'm willing to believe that the guy was being threatening and harassing, but I also read into that evidence a guy who is socially inept and frustrating to work with, but not sure on the harassment part. Those aren't mutually exclusive. Harassment is an action, not an intent. You can harass someone because you are socially inept, but that doesn't mean you aren't harassing someone, and it explains the behavior but certainly doesn't excuse it. > Then she says that how they really should have responded was: That wasn't text of how she imagined he should have responded, that's a quote from an actual response she got from one of her mentors
- leereeves 9y ago
  There's a difference between harassment and someone refusing to stop pursuing a legitimate claim. Is he a cofounder or an employee? Difficult question, but certainly a legitimate one.
9y ago

Osseric 9y ago

“If I go, how dangerous is he?” Yeah, because someone sending you emails is surely physically dangerous. Spooky men.

CodeLikeAGirl 9y ago
Based on our historic experience with men, if they treat us like that over email, it is probable they will treat us like that in person. His behaviour made her feel unsafe. Why would you knowing put yourself into an unsafe situation.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- pfarnsworth 9y ago
  Treat you like what? Where was the threat in the email? Did he call OP a "bitch", "slut", etc? Did he belittle her? He asked her for his share of the prize and said that if she didn't then he would pursue it unilaterally. Since when did that mean he was going to physically harm her? Sorry, I believe sexual harassment occurs in the tech industry and should be stamped out, but this is not a case of it.
  - orwin 9y ago
    Tis is NOT a case of sexual harassment. He might be unknowingly threatening (best case scenario, the one i believe), or downright manipulative, either way she do not want to work with him. He joined her on the project and she offered to give him 2 of the 3 tickets then he started his passive-agressive emails. I got those from people i worked with too, every time i just left the project (mainly because it was never mine). This type of passive-agressive behaviour exist very much in tech, mainly because this behaviour is related with self-entitlment and goes well with smug personnalities.
- Osseric 9y ago
  Based on our historic experience with women, if they treat us like disposable collective garbage, it is probable that they will continue to do so. My point is that this inference of "always unsafe", and "always vigilant" is delusional. Sure, awful things happen constantly around the world, the probability of that at a hackathon related event? In a developed country? The only perceived threat is some emails? Do you not realize how silly it sounds to believe any of this is threatening? It just seems out of touch with actual victims.

startupdiscuss 9y ago

Not the most disturbing, but the strangest aspect, is how the truth of the matter kept getting lost and people who had no idea about what had happened held strong opinions. Makes me wonder how often this happens in other news items. I do want to know what happened with the tickets and the booth, though.

uoaei 9y ago
Look around this comment thread and you will see the exact same thing.
- startupdiscuss 9y ago
  Didn't expect to be so prescient so soon.
- jaxmurr 9y ago
  > Not the most disturbing, but the strangest aspect, is how the truth of the matter kept getting lost and people who had no idea about what had happened held strong opinions. The author quite thoroughly documented the entire ordeal (with screenshots and everything). I'm struggling to understand how this comment thread is an example of "the truth of the matter getting lost," when we have all the "evidence" of the "harassment," and are merely pointing out what we see?
  - spraak 9y ago
    Because most of the people commenting here seem to have not actually read the article. E.g. so many comments mention /sexual/ harassment, but the article was mostly focused on just harassment in general, and didn't claim that Mark's actions were explicitly sexual.

optimuspaul 9y ago

The responses here make me a little sick. Why are you all brushing off her experiences? Stop belittling this person.

jaxmurr 9y ago
Did you read the article? It uses the word "harassment" quite liberally, and belittles actual victims of harassment.
- startupdiscuss 9y ago
  Harassment doesn't necessarily mean sexual harassment.
  - ohyoutravel 9y ago
    No one thinks that it does, in fact "sexual harassment" hadn't even crossed my mind. But based purely on what the author wrote (which seems comprehensive, complete with emails), I don't see harassment.
    - jasonlotito 9y ago
      Yes, people do. Here is one example. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15586109 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15586109
  - jaxmurr 9y ago
    Yes, and I'm not saying it does. I'm saying the article has no example of actual harassment. There was no name calling, no threats, and no abusive behavior. All I see is a potentially socially-inept guy trying to communicate, and someone reading way too much into his emails (she kept claiming the "threats were insinuated," really?).
    - startupdiscuss 9y ago
      The email isn't supposed to be proof of some kind of creepy behavior but proof of an unwillingness to leave the project.

ohyoutravel 9y ago

Really not trying to be a stick in the mud, and Mark does give me a little pause. However, there were only two people on this team, right? Which leads me to the conclusion that you were the PM (as you specifically say you're the project leader) and Mark was the engineer? I don't go to too many hackathons, but if it's you two only, that makes me think 50/50 split. I understand if you're parting ways, sure, but this seems like a legitimate complaint from a 50/50 split team: "While I understand the original idea was yours, I need you to understand that the prize we won together. […] That exhibition booth […] is as much mine as it is yours." And of course either of you can choose to leave the team unilaterally, but on a 50/50 team, it seems odd that one person can "fire" the other person and take all the benefits (minus one ticket) that the team won together. If we formed a 50/50 team, and a VC gave us a bunch of funding, and I told you I was firing you and giving you some of the VC money, you would be pretty miffed. If there's a booth to demonstrate things, then your statement here seems odd: "The tickets being offered were exactly what he would have gotten as a team member.." because there's more to the benefits of winning than a ticket to a conference or whatever. Additionally, you paint his email as harassment, but I really don't see it: https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/2000/1*DQAH9nLoO8yC4rwtK61hgQ.png https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/2000/1*DQAH9nLoO8yC4rwtK... I won't continue from there as hopefully you get the idea. And I'm not blaming you, but it really does not seem like harassment, despite the narrative you're painting. It makes me think you have some angle here, but someone shouldn't be "fired" and told to leave a project that they had a 50/50 stake in because you thought they were a little gruff.

openasocket 9y ago
From the Techstars FAQ: "Whether or not you continue to work on the idea with some or all of your team is completely up to you. Approximately 25% of Techstars Startup Weekend participants continue working on their idea with all of their team". She also gave him one of the 3 tickets, he just wouldn't be presenting the project in a booth and wouldn't continue working on the project.
- nickelcitymario 9y ago
  This bit of the FAQ seems to encourage the very issue that led to this conflict... "How do teams address the issue of Intellectual Property/ownership?" "As with any startup, the team decides. Techstars Startup Weekend doesn’t support or take part in the signing of any legal documents at the events themselves, and while Mentors with legal backgrounds are often present and able to give general advice, they are not permitted to give specific legal counsel. While it doesn’t hurt to be clear about your individual expectations from the start, we’ve found that teams who don’t spend time addressing this issue until it actually matters (i.e., there is a tangible product to have ownership of) are much more productive and successful than those who do." ... By not addressing the exact nature of the agreement; by not making it clear that the expectation was that Mark was volunteering and thus giving away his talent; by not making it clear that he was expected to simply help and then go away when no longer wanted; by doing not doing these things up front, Mark was left to make his own assumptions. So bad on Mark, and bad on the author, IMHO. No wonder this ended badly. And more to the point, bad on Techstars for encouraging this.

pfarnsworth 9y ago

This is actually a clear case of someone who believes there's harassment where there is none, and it a step backwards for women who actually do encounter harassment. She refuses to take responsibility for her part in this, and instead blames others and "sexual harassment" because she doesn't think she's wrong. If men disagree with her, it's not because she's fundamentally wrong, of course, but because they are obviously sexist. Those are the worst type of people, and I've encountered many of this type, both men and women. Looking at it from the other side, she partnered with someone, and then after winning the prize, she kicked him out and denied him the ability to go to the next stage. And she didn't even have the decency to do it over phone, she emailed him. I don't see any evidence of harassment presented by the OP. If being upset at someone who seemingly took your work and prevented you from engaging in the winnings of your project equates to "harassment" or "sexism", then sure. But that means that a male can never confront her for her mistake lest it be sexism, which is ludicrous. Obviously, lying about OP going to Hong Kong or whatnot crosses the line and is inexcusable, but it sounds like he was trying to get the tickets which were forfeited anyway. I don't doubt that the guy in question was an asshole, but I don't see any evidence that he was a sexist asshole. And in fact, I think there's more evidence that SHE is the sexist. The funny thing is that she writes it right there and can't see her own sexism.

orwin 9y ago
harassment is not always sexual harassment. Now i think she read way to much into his emails but honestly, i would never work with a guy like this. Either he is "socially inapt" like other commenters said, either he is a very manipulative guy.

startupdiscuss 9y ago

There are two ways to read this article: 1. Be completely skeptical of the author's claims and demand proof. 2. Give the author the benefit of the doubt. I submit that when we ordinarily read an article, we do the second. We can't know what the other person did that was creepy or intense, but we have (presumably) all been in similar situations. The person snaps, or doesn't respond, or yells, or takes credit or any number of odious habits. For whatever reason, some people are inclined to not give this author the benefit of the doubt and, without being there, want to give this other person the benefit of the doubt. To them I would say this: imagine that you have an idea and recruit a technical person to help you with it. After a weekend, you tell them its not going to work for whatever reason. Maybe you just don't like the way they smell, or they go off on goofy tangents, or you don't like their puns, or they don't laugh at your jokes. I don't care. Its just one weekend and you don't want to work with them. You have a right to ask them not to work with you and move on. You didn't say this was forever. If the person refused to move one, what would you do?

lostmsu 9y ago
Did she pay though?
- startupdiscuss 9y ago
  The agreement was that the work was voluntary. If you volunteer to fix my yard, and after a weekend, I tell you thanks but please leave, am I suddenly expected to pay for it?
  - openmosix 9y ago
    I'm not sure it has nothing to do with IP ownership. I "volunteer" to a million of opensource projects. However, I am not giving up IP ownership - they get transferred as part of the license associated with my work. In the absence of a license, I still retain 100% ownership of everything I have produced. There is a reason why every employment agreement requires to sign a special document where the employee transfer IP ownership to the company. In an "informal" setting, Mark is fully entitled to the intellectual ownership of his work (unless he signed a license or a IP transfer). In the current situation - from a pure legal standpoint - Mark could claim ownership of the project.

rmetzler 9y ago

I have a story to tell and I was kind of the Mark in your story. Except my brother was on the other end of the story and he got it all wrong which turned in both of us not talking with each other for more than a year. It wasn't a good time in my life and it's really hard to write about it. It also wasn't the first time, I was part of something, putting much work into the project and got fired from it. It's not nice to get fired after you volunteered to help someone with their project. Selfish people seem to think the success is their own and they own the project, because they had the idea, not recognizing that success is a team effort. Ok, my story: my brother is a lawyer, I'm a software developer. After finishing his degree, he decided to start his own law firm and I helped him to create his website including SEO, etc. He became very successful more or less over night. Before we had lived together in an apartment and there were weeks when we didn't eat much except rice and fishsauce, now he had the money to buy Macs and Porsches. The website was build with WordPress and several plugins, so I thought my job was it to update it as often as possible in order to not allow hackers to access his clients data or bring the site down. I didn't have any formal contract with my brother. In fact, he didn't really understood what I did - the site was finished as he saw it, why would he need an admin? He gave me gifts, often much bigger ones than I expected, but I didn't have much income. What I wanted was an income I could count on, even when it was a small one. I made the mistake and told him, I needed a contract to provide the work so nothing would happen to the site. He understood that all wrong and thought I was threatening him and the website. He went into panic mode instantly. In his panic he even changed passwords, including the MySQL password, but didn't know that he needed to change it in the WordPress config too. This brought his website down. Of course I helped him to recover the website, but we were mad about each other for month and didn't talk. I had a rough time, I was depressive and broke. I couldn't pay my health insurance and the fucking health insurance company was able to suspend my banking account. Not once, but thrice. The whole fight wasn't worth it. I know, this story doesn't has much to do with what has happend to OP, except one thing: Please try to talk to each other and understand the reasons why someone does something.

coreyp_1 9y ago

If they did not make an IP agreement, then don't they each own the code that they wrote? In effect, isn't she "stealing" the work and presenting it as her own? I see his objections to her IP and substantive theft (the code and IP, the booth presence and control over 1/2 of a ticket) as justified. His reaction may not be 100% blameless, either, but she is the original offender here. The worst part is that she tries to use a "harassment" accusation to justify her theft.

amaranthine 9y ago
Hi there - no code was written during the weekend. After consulting with a lawyer, we concluded the only "IP" was the original idea, which I pitched. The weekend was used exclusively for user research, concept validation, and some wireframing. (My partner's work - a mock website and logo - couldn't be used after the weekend.) Techstars has its own guidance regarding IP, but it's rather hand-wavey. I was surprised by this when I later found out that only 25% of teams continue working together. > "As with any startup, the team decides. Techstars Startup Weekend doesn’t support or take part in the signing of any legal documents at the events themselves, and while Mentors with legal backgrounds are often present and able to give general advice, they are not permitted to give specific legal counsel. While it doesn’t hurt to be clear about your individual expectations from the start, we’ve found that teams who don’t spend time addressing this issue until it actually matters (i.e., there is a tangible product to have ownership of) are much more productive and successful than those who do." https://startupweekend.org/attendees/faq https://startupweekend.org/attendees/faq
- coreyp_1 9y ago
  I'm not buying it. IP is not limited to code. "the team decides". That is not what happened. You decided. The booth presence and the tickets are as much his as they are yours. If you decide to take them (and use them, give them away, or anything else) you are taking part of something that he has a right to. Again, I do not justify his response (as he is not here for me to address), but what should he have done in light of someone denying him access to something that is rightfully his? Just because you did not do your due diligence (because you didn't know that you should, or were inexperienced in hackathons, or whatever...) and you turned out to not like working with the other person, does not negate the work or award that the team accomplished together. Regret does not change anything.

jacknews 9y ago

I can't see what this has to do with 'harassment' especially as it's being gently couched to sound like sexual harassment ("powerless to stop him from invading my booth at the conference.", etc). I think the idea of these events is that everyone is volunteering their talent, and that includes the "project leader" and "their" idea. We hear enough on here about how ideas in themselves are all but worthless, so the result of the hackathon is really jointly owned by those participating, and I think the "volunteer guy" (and it seems that in her mind she could have just "hired" another objectified commodity-person, right?) has every right to be less than impressed at being summarily dismissed from a project he seems to have helped create.