4 ms·

Paul Manafort and Richard Gates Indictment [pdf]

122 points by uptown 9y ago

bertil 9y ago
The language of the indictment is surprisingly legible (and blunt). This is a welcome change in how legalese is usually used as obfuscation, or possibly in anticipation of the many journalists and non-lawyers who would want to read it.
- minimaxir 9y ago
  This HN submission was flagkilled; I vouched for it due to this reason. Even though there is a political backdrop behind the investigation, there is still a newsworthy process to the law-and-order of a special investigation.
DonHopkins 9y ago
The only reason for Trump to have ever hired Paul Manafort as his campaign manager was to collude with Russia.
- greggeter 9y ago
  Source?
- adamnemecek 9y ago
  Yup campaign managers don't go meet with foreign officials before the election.
- SirensOfTitan 9y ago
  Unsubstantiated claims like this pull the entire discussion down.
  - adamnemecek 9y ago
    Why did paul go to Russia before the election? It's not like an outlandish claim considering we are discussing this on the thread about the guys indictment.
    - SirensOfTitan 9y ago
      What point do you intend on making with this comment? Surely the burden of proof is on the claimant? If you have evidence that Trump hired Manafort strictly to collude with Russia, you may want to present it to Mueller's special investigation unit.
- metalliqaz 9y ago
  This isn't an accurate assertion, IMHO. Trump didn't set out to collude with Russia. He just has no morals or ethics and is wanted to win at any cost. Manafort promised him good things and he didn't care where it came from.
  - Fjolsvith 9y ago
    Well, it is refreshing to see that both presidential candidates were equally lacking in morals and ethics and wanted to win at any cost.
- rdtsc 9y ago
  How did Trump collude with Russia again? I never quite see clear evidence for that even though it has been repeated multiple times. And besides, wouldn't Trump collude with Ukraine since a lot of what the indictment is about? As to why Trump hired him, it's not clear. He besides supporting and being lobbyist for various shady rules and governments he was also an adviser for Bush's and Dole's campaigns.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    > How did Trump collude with Russia again? The Papadopoulos guilty plea, not the Gates and Manafort indictments, is about lieing about deliberate attempts to collide with the Russian government concerning the election. > And besides, wouldn't Trump collude with Ukraine since a lot of what the indictment is about? The indictment is largely about criminal acts before, during, and after the 2016 campaign related to Manafort and Gates relationship with Russian-backed political factions in Ukraine.
- Fjolsvith 9y ago
  As a conspiracy theorist, I actually believe it is much larger. Hillary colluded with Manafort and Muller to try to prove Trump colluded with Russia.
- notfromhere 9y ago
  he didn't take a salary. he's not a man to do things for free
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
bischofs 9y ago
Interesting that there is nothing here related to the campaign - just some money laundering with Ukraine. Some would argue its outside the relevance of what the special prosecutor was hired for (Russian interference in the election). Im guessing these charges are designed to scare Manafort into giving up the bigger fish.
- FLUX-YOU 9y ago
  Is this the only time they can file indictments? If not, they may have additional charges in the works. I imagine they would have told the judge "this is all we're planning to file" if they didn't have any other investigative work going on, right?
  - bischofs 9y ago
    Yeah probably... im not a lawyer so I have no idea.
  - maxerickson 9y ago
    The mainstream media are mumbling about these charges being filed now because of some concerns about statutes of limitation. Nothing really clear and on the record though. They can file more charges.
    - bmm6o 9y ago
      I don't recall the specifics, but there's a 10/31 deadline for IRS filings that sets the date on some tax evasion charges, and the oldest ones were going to lapse.
  - alexggordon 9y ago
    At this point they have been indicted and charges have been filed (the link this post points to). The steps for an investigation are very straightforward[0], and so now that we're past the charging process, if separate charges are found, it will result in another trial. I think it's pretty rare for simultaneous trials to be going on though, just based on anecdotal experience. It makes sense that prosecutors would want to wait to see the outcome of the first trial before issuing more charges. [0] https://www.justice.gov/usao/justice-101/steps-federal-criminal-process https://www.justice.gov/usao/justice-101/steps-federal-crimi...
keymone 9y ago
as a ukrainian that (mostly) lived through political perturbations in Ukraine during 2003-2013, where connection between ex-president Yanukovich and Manafort was widely known, it is almost baffling to now see connection between Trump and Manafort. one would imagine somebody running for president of the US would have been more careful picking his team. when scam perpetrators and con artists get indicted, reasonable people stay away from them or their future endeavors. Trump/Manafort for me is the best indication that the political campaign was full of shady business.
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  Trump has shown time and time again that he isn’t the smartest cookie on the block, nor is he very willing to take advise from his advisors. All of this could have been avoided with a bit of caution. Collusion wouldn’t surprise me, but neither would this just being a set of very dumb choices.
- rdtsc 9y ago
  > one would imagine somebody running for president of the US would have been more careful picking his team. This guy had his fingers in a lot of pies. Ukraine, Angolan rebels, Somalia. He was also advising Reagan, GW Bush and Bob Dole's campaigns. Good thing they got him. Less corruption the better.
jonwachob91 9y ago
Is there a legal/technical reason that Justice scanned the paper copy and uploaded that as opposed to uploading the original digital file?
- Munksgaard 9y ago
  I imagine it's because of the handwritten signatures at the end of the pdf.
- syntheticnature 9y ago
  May or may not be the actual reason: It helps guarantee that there is no data leakage via "track changes."
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
onesun 9y ago
Why did this get flagged?
- grzm 9y ago
  The simple reason is that enough HN members flagged it to trigger the "[flagged]" tag. The deeper reason as to why HN members flagged it is tougher to answer as it involves speculation. I think it's likely because (a) it's off-topic per the guidelines given that it's pretty much pure politics and using the guidelines' heuristic of "if they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic", this meets it; and (b) topics of this nature, regardless of their importance are very rarely constructively discussed on HN. That's not to say it's not worth discussing; some forums (virtual and otherwise) are better suited for productive discussion of a particular topic than others. HN members often flag such submissions even if they believe the topic is important for just this reason.

122 points by uptown 9y ago

The language of the indictment is surprisingly legible (and blunt). This is a welcome change in how legalese is usually used as obfuscation, or possibly in anticipation of the many journalists and non-lawyers who would want to read it.

minimaxir 9y ago
This HN submission was flagkilled; I vouched for it due to this reason. Even though there is a political backdrop behind the investigation, there is still a newsworthy process to the law-and-order of a special investigation.

DonHopkins 9y ago

The only reason for Trump to have ever hired Paul Manafort as his campaign manager was to collude with Russia.

greggeter 9y ago
Source?
adamnemecek 9y ago
Yup campaign managers don't go meet with foreign officials before the election.
SirensOfTitan 9y ago
Unsubstantiated claims like this pull the entire discussion down.
- adamnemecek 9y ago
  Why did paul go to Russia before the election? It's not like an outlandish claim considering we are discussing this on the thread about the guys indictment.
  - SirensOfTitan 9y ago
    What point do you intend on making with this comment? Surely the burden of proof is on the claimant? If you have evidence that Trump hired Manafort strictly to collude with Russia, you may want to present it to Mueller's special investigation unit.
metalliqaz 9y ago
This isn't an accurate assertion, IMHO. Trump didn't set out to collude with Russia. He just has no morals or ethics and is wanted to win at any cost. Manafort promised him good things and he didn't care where it came from.
- Fjolsvith 9y ago
  Well, it is refreshing to see that both presidential candidates were equally lacking in morals and ethics and wanted to win at any cost.
rdtsc 9y ago
How did Trump collude with Russia again? I never quite see clear evidence for that even though it has been repeated multiple times. And besides, wouldn't Trump collude with Ukraine since a lot of what the indictment is about? As to why Trump hired him, it's not clear. He besides supporting and being lobbyist for various shady rules and governments he was also an adviser for Bush's and Dole's campaigns.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > How did Trump collude with Russia again? The Papadopoulos guilty plea, not the Gates and Manafort indictments, is about lieing about deliberate attempts to collide with the Russian government concerning the election. > And besides, wouldn't Trump collude with Ukraine since a lot of what the indictment is about? The indictment is largely about criminal acts before, during, and after the 2016 campaign related to Manafort and Gates relationship with Russian-backed political factions in Ukraine.
Fjolsvith 9y ago
As a conspiracy theorist, I actually believe it is much larger. Hillary colluded with Manafort and Muller to try to prove Trump colluded with Russia.
notfromhere 9y ago
he didn't take a salary. he's not a man to do things for free

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

bischofs 9y ago

Interesting that there is nothing here related to the campaign - just some money laundering with Ukraine. Some would argue its outside the relevance of what the special prosecutor was hired for (Russian interference in the election). Im guessing these charges are designed to scare Manafort into giving up the bigger fish.

FLUX-YOU 9y ago
Is this the only time they can file indictments? If not, they may have additional charges in the works. I imagine they would have told the judge "this is all we're planning to file" if they didn't have any other investigative work going on, right?
- bischofs 9y ago
  Yeah probably... im not a lawyer so I have no idea.
- maxerickson 9y ago
  The mainstream media are mumbling about these charges being filed now because of some concerns about statutes of limitation. Nothing really clear and on the record though. They can file more charges.
  - bmm6o 9y ago
    I don't recall the specifics, but there's a 10/31 deadline for IRS filings that sets the date on some tax evasion charges, and the oldest ones were going to lapse.
- alexggordon 9y ago
  At this point they have been indicted and charges have been filed (the link this post points to). The steps for an investigation are very straightforward[0], and so now that we're past the charging process, if separate charges are found, it will result in another trial. I think it's pretty rare for simultaneous trials to be going on though, just based on anecdotal experience. It makes sense that prosecutors would want to wait to see the outcome of the first trial before issuing more charges. [0] https://www.justice.gov/usao/justice-101/steps-federal-criminal-process https://www.justice.gov/usao/justice-101/steps-federal-crimi...

keymone 9y ago

as a ukrainian that (mostly) lived through political perturbations in Ukraine during 2003-2013, where connection between ex-president Yanukovich and Manafort was widely known, it is almost baffling to now see connection between Trump and Manafort. one would imagine somebody running for president of the US would have been more careful picking his team. when scam perpetrators and con artists get indicted, reasonable people stay away from them or their future endeavors. Trump/Manafort for me is the best indication that the political campaign was full of shady business.

seanmcdirmid 9y ago
Trump has shown time and time again that he isn’t the smartest cookie on the block, nor is he very willing to take advise from his advisors. All of this could have been avoided with a bit of caution. Collusion wouldn’t surprise me, but neither would this just being a set of very dumb choices.
rdtsc 9y ago
> one would imagine somebody running for president of the US would have been more careful picking his team. This guy had his fingers in a lot of pies. Ukraine, Angolan rebels, Somalia. He was also advising Reagan, GW Bush and Bob Dole's campaigns. Good thing they got him. Less corruption the better.

jonwachob91 9y ago

Is there a legal/technical reason that Justice scanned the paper copy and uploaded that as opposed to uploading the original digital file?

Munksgaard 9y ago
I imagine it's because of the handwritten signatures at the end of the pdf.
syntheticnature 9y ago
May or may not be the actual reason: It helps guarantee that there is no data leakage via "track changes."
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

onesun 9y ago

Why did this get flagged?

grzm 9y ago
The simple reason is that enough HN members flagged it to trigger the "[flagged]" tag. The deeper reason as to why HN members flagged it is tougher to answer as it involves speculation. I think it's likely because (a) it's off-topic per the guidelines given that it's pretty much pure politics and using the guidelines' heuristic of "if they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic", this meets it; and (b) topics of this nature, regardless of their importance are very rarely constructively discussed on HN. That's not to say it's not worth discussing; some forums (virtual and otherwise) are better suited for productive discussion of a particular topic than others. HN members often flag such submissions even if they believe the topic is important for just this reason.