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Why permanent daylight savings time? Why not just permanent real time? Clock noon should be roughly the same as solar noon, all year round. 'Daylight savings

by zeveb 9y ago

Why permanent daylight savings time? Why not just permanent real time? Clock noon should be roughly the same as solar noon, all year round. 'Daylight savings' is an impossibility.

chimeracoder 9y ago
> Why permanent daylight savings time? Why not just permanent real time? Clock noon should be roughly the same as solar noon, all year round. 'Daylight savings' is an impossibility. Because if my commute involves driving fifty miles east in the morning and fifty miles west in the evening, I don't want to have to adjust my clock by about 5 minutes twice a day. (At the equator, this would be 3 minutes - the further you go from the equator, the greater the difference that fifty miles would represent).
- zeveb 9y ago
  > Because if my commute involves driving fifty miles east in the morning and fifty miles west in the evening, I don't want to have to adjust my clock by about 5 minutes twice a day. You seem to think that I'm arguing against time zones. I'm not (here, anyway): I'm arguing that the time within a time zone be that of noon at its midpoint, so that no point within the timezone is more than 30 minutes from true noon (yes, some timezone are larger than an hour …), as opposed to those who want permanent DST, or even double DST, where clock noon might be hours from true noon.
  - koenigdavidmj 9y ago
    And life gets interesting if your time zone crosses through anywhere populated. (That's why northwest Indiana is on central time: it basically exists as a bedroom community for Chicago, so it's most sensical to be on Chicago time.)
Spooky23 9y ago
The valid argument is usually about safety. Many people, especially children are travelling to go to work or school and sunrise at 7:20, feels a little unsafe for many people. That extra hour in the morning helps.
- Asooka 9y ago
  But daylight saving time is exactly the opposite! It adds an hour to the evening. If you want sunrise to be earlier, you have to use non-DST. Or even anti-DST and move the clock an hour back from regular time.
kmm 9y ago
I have absolutely nothing to gain from the sun being close to its highest point at 12 o' clock. I have a lot to gain from an extra hour of light in my evenings
- zeveb 9y ago
  > I have a lot to gain from an extra hour of light in my evenings. May I suggest leaving for home earlier? And a child comment of yours wants an extra hour of light in the mornings. You can't have it both ways! There's a finite amount of light in the day: not everyone can have everything he wants. So why not just settle for making noon be noon, rather than taking an hour from Spooky23 and giving it to you, or taking it from you and giving it to Spooky23?
  - asavadatti 9y ago
    Not always possible to leave for home earlier (with meetings and such)
    - Steko 9y ago
      But you’re not actually leaving earlier, it’s the exact same point in time whether you call it 6pm EST or 7pm EDT. Not trying to be patronizing as I realize you are not dumb and know this but I’m explaining the disconnect between sides of this argument.
    - toast0 9y ago
      Book a standing meeting on your calend/ar to leave at 4 (or whenever). For exceptional meetings, make an exception and stay late. Probably come in early, or some how signal that you're not a slacker, just running a different schedule. This obviously doesn't work in all environments, but it can in many.
  - ant6n 9y ago
    Maybe we should have some sort of compromise system: in the summer where there's plenty of sunlight hours we can get that extra hour in the evening (without sacrificing morning light hours), and in the winter we could have a sightly shifted time to make sure the stm doesn't get up too late.
24gttghh 9y ago
To have EDT year-round where I live (Maine): 5am Sunrise in mid-June, Sunset around 830pm. 6am Sunrise in mid-December, Sunset around 3pm. EST year-round: 6am Sunrise mid-June, 930pm Sunset. 7am Sunrise mid-December, 4pm Sunset Right now it's the first and last times with our spring-forward, fall-back switches. I'm thinking EDT year round would be most beneficial in the AM in winter, as it is realllly hard to get out of bed in the dark. I already go to work in the dark in winter, so it being dark an hour earlier wouldn't make any difference there. Maybe just a half-hour difference in the switch would be a good compromise?
PeterisP 9y ago
Because we'd want the standard waking hours to be roughly aligned with daylight, but due to historical reasons (during the transition from an agricultural society to industrial one?) our standard waking hours, determined by our standard working hours, are significantly shifted to the afternoon. As a rule, people don't go to sleep in 20:00 to wake up at 04:00 (anymore - in the agricultural era that was quite common), and midnight is not even close to the middle of our nighttime; in the same manner, noon is not in the middle of our days, we're spending much more of our time after noon. Changing all of that is hard and difficult compared to changing a time zone - so we'd want a timezone where the astronomical midnight is at 1:00 or 2:00 local time, it would better align the daylight with our activities.
- zeveb 9y ago
  I think you'll find that it's like euphemism creep: in a few more decades, you'll be arguing to slide the time over another hour, and in another few decades, you'll do the same thing all over again. Better to just stick with real time and be done with it. We're adults, are we not? Have we not the tools at our disposal to take responsibility for our lives?
  - WalterGR 9y ago
    in a few more decades, you'll be arguing to slide the time over another hour, and in another few decades, you'll do the same thing all over again. ... We're adults, are we not? And you'll be doing the same thing, but in the opposite (and wrong ;) direction. Non-DST isn't some heavenly ordained moral high ground.
    - zeveb 9y ago
      > And you'll be doing the same thing, but in the opposite (and wrong ;) direction. No, I'll continue arguing that clock noon should be solar noon. Midnight should be the middle of the night. Nothing more nor less.

by zeveb 9y ago

Why permanent daylight savings time? Why not just permanent real time? Clock noon should be roughly the same as solar noon, all year round. 'Daylight savings' is an impossibility.

chimeracoder 9y ago

> Why permanent daylight savings time? Why not just permanent real time? Clock noon should be roughly the same as solar noon, all year round. 'Daylight savings' is an impossibility. Because if my commute involves driving fifty miles east in the morning and fifty miles west in the evening, I don't want to have to adjust my clock by about 5 minutes twice a day. (At the equator, this would be 3 minutes - the further you go from the equator, the greater the difference that fifty miles would represent).

zeveb 9y ago
> Because if my commute involves driving fifty miles east in the morning and fifty miles west in the evening, I don't want to have to adjust my clock by about 5 minutes twice a day. You seem to think that I'm arguing against time zones. I'm not (here, anyway): I'm arguing that the time within a time zone be that of noon at its midpoint, so that no point within the timezone is more than 30 minutes from true noon (yes, some timezone are larger than an hour …), as opposed to those who want permanent DST, or even double DST, where clock noon might be hours from true noon.
- koenigdavidmj 9y ago
  And life gets interesting if your time zone crosses through anywhere populated. (That's why northwest Indiana is on central time: it basically exists as a bedroom community for Chicago, so it's most sensical to be on Chicago time.)

Spooky23 9y ago

The valid argument is usually about safety. Many people, especially children are travelling to go to work or school and sunrise at 7:20, feels a little unsafe for many people. That extra hour in the morning helps.

Asooka 9y ago
But daylight saving time is exactly the opposite! It adds an hour to the evening. If you want sunrise to be earlier, you have to use non-DST. Or even anti-DST and move the clock an hour back from regular time.

kmm 9y ago

I have absolutely nothing to gain from the sun being close to its highest point at 12 o' clock. I have a lot to gain from an extra hour of light in my evenings

zeveb 9y ago
> I have a lot to gain from an extra hour of light in my evenings. May I suggest leaving for home earlier? And a child comment of yours wants an extra hour of light in the mornings. You can't have it both ways! There's a finite amount of light in the day: not everyone can have everything he wants. So why not just settle for making noon be noon, rather than taking an hour from Spooky23 and giving it to you, or taking it from you and giving it to Spooky23?
- asavadatti 9y ago
  Not always possible to leave for home earlier (with meetings and such)
  - Steko 9y ago
    But you’re not actually leaving earlier, it’s the exact same point in time whether you call it 6pm EST or 7pm EDT. Not trying to be patronizing as I realize you are not dumb and know this but I’m explaining the disconnect between sides of this argument.
  - toast0 9y ago
    Book a standing meeting on your calend/ar to leave at 4 (or whenever). For exceptional meetings, make an exception and stay late. Probably come in early, or some how signal that you're not a slacker, just running a different schedule. This obviously doesn't work in all environments, but it can in many.
- ant6n 9y ago
  Maybe we should have some sort of compromise system: in the summer where there's plenty of sunlight hours we can get that extra hour in the evening (without sacrificing morning light hours), and in the winter we could have a sightly shifted time to make sure the stm doesn't get up too late.

24gttghh 9y ago

To have EDT year-round where I live (Maine): 5am Sunrise in mid-June, Sunset around 830pm. 6am Sunrise in mid-December, Sunset around 3pm. EST year-round: 6am Sunrise mid-June, 930pm Sunset. 7am Sunrise mid-December, 4pm Sunset Right now it's the first and last times with our spring-forward, fall-back switches. I'm thinking EDT year round would be most beneficial in the AM in winter, as it is realllly hard to get out of bed in the dark. I already go to work in the dark in winter, so it being dark an hour earlier wouldn't make any difference there. Maybe just a half-hour difference in the switch would be a good compromise?

PeterisP 9y ago

Because we'd want the standard waking hours to be roughly aligned with daylight, but due to historical reasons (during the transition from an agricultural society to industrial one?) our standard waking hours, determined by our standard working hours, are significantly shifted to the afternoon. As a rule, people don't go to sleep in 20:00 to wake up at 04:00 (anymore - in the agricultural era that was quite common), and midnight is not even close to the middle of our nighttime; in the same manner, noon is not in the middle of our days, we're spending much more of our time after noon. Changing all of that is hard and difficult compared to changing a time zone - so we'd want a timezone where the astronomical midnight is at 1:00 or 2:00 local time, it would better align the daylight with our activities.

zeveb 9y ago
I think you'll find that it's like euphemism creep: in a few more decades, you'll be arguing to slide the time over another hour, and in another few decades, you'll do the same thing all over again. Better to just stick with real time and be done with it. We're adults, are we not? Have we not the tools at our disposal to take responsibility for our lives?
- WalterGR 9y ago
  in a few more decades, you'll be arguing to slide the time over another hour, and in another few decades, you'll do the same thing all over again. ... We're adults, are we not? And you'll be doing the same thing, but in the opposite (and wrong ;) direction. Non-DST isn't some heavenly ordained moral high ground.
  - zeveb 9y ago
    > And you'll be doing the same thing, but in the opposite (and wrong ;) direction. No, I'll continue arguing that clock noon should be solar noon. Midnight should be the middle of the night. Nothing more nor less.