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I've been in an out of the games industry most my career. I was one of the OS developers for the 3DO, the original PSX, as well as lead or team for 15 years fro

I've been in an out of the games industry most my career. I was one of the OS developers for the 3DO, the original PSX, as well as lead or team for 15 years from 1990 on. Years before "EA Spouse" I tried and failed to get some type of collective effort against the rampant, illegal employee abuse. The collective game developer brainwash is thick, and their treatment is 100 times more abusive than the sexual harassment the larger public is currently outraged about. After leaving games, I thought VFX was going to be less abusive. I spent 7 years doing that; artist, programmer & financial analyst. VFX was only better in the respect that the pay and perks were better. Were. Film VFX is mostly overseas or Canada now. I'm in facial recognition now. It is still just exiting the "computer scientist" stage, not at that "Crappy AI College" level yet. Until younger people get some type of collective sense of their abuse, it will continue. Everywhere.

PhasmaFelis 9y ago
> their treatment is 100 times more abusive than the sexual harassment the larger public is currently outraged about. Spreading divisiveness between different groups of abused workers helps no one. They're both real, pervasive problems.
- bsenftner 9y ago
  Not intended to be divisive. Simply pointing out the severity.
  - tobr 9y ago
    It jumped out at me too as a very unnecessary comparison. It reads like “sexual abuse is an exaggerated problem”, to be honest.
    - bsenftner 9y ago
      Sounds like my comparison is being lost here. The abuse is worse in the following manner: game developers were (don't know if currently, but I did over and over) were required to sign 'feature contracts' where we would sign off with risk of financial penalty a feature set to add or modify a game. The game is a known sports or some reoccurring franchise, and this contract is signature required to land the contract, before seeing the code or assets one is modifying. The entire team of one to two dozen developers and artists sign individual contracts, with fantasy milestones crafted sight unseen for the materials we are 'contractually bound' to work with and deliver functioning, bullet proof code. Typically a game would suffer at least one person quitting, one person melting down, and the rest of the team picking up the slack. "Crunch time" was 9 to 12 months of 7 days a week. Literally insane. And meanwhile both the producer from EA/Sony/Satan as well as your in-house producer are pressing everyone daily to stay late, get in early, and deliver, deliver. The only way to describe it is a type of Stockholm Syndrome. So, yes, in my opinion this is worse. This is pure insanity.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - bsenftner 9y ago
        Luc: being raped by a gang is not workplace sexual abuse. I never made the comparison you see.
        in_cahoots 9y ago
        Many of the women in these latest scandals are saying they were raped, not simply harassed. I think that’s why your claim that the gaming industry is 100x worse is raising some criticism.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - csydas 9y ago
        I think the poor reception by some is that the original statement comes off as a little dismissive of sexual abuse and the reason that many people are outraged over it. The individual cases and instances are usually considered to be symptoms of a larger pervasive issue with discrimination in the work place which prevents many from having an equal opportunity to compete. To illustrate how some are reading it, one may read the above complaint as "working long hours at a desk job while people are literally having to choose between being sexually harassed or losing their job and potentially damaging their career's future with a harassment scandal". (Note I am not advocating anything here, just trying to demonstrate how it can feel condescending to have your plight diminshed by comparison) Having friends within the game industry, I know how horrible it is to the workers that make games happen because I've seen the effects on the workers first hand. I think that a description of the abuse is quite effective without trying to compare it to another major workplace problem that many people face, as both can be a severe problem that need to be addressed; it's not a triage situation where one must be prioritized, especially when both problems more or less come from the same source; employers abusing their power to manipulate and control employees to further the employer's desires.
        9y ago
  - loeg 9y ago
    It doesn't improve your message. It reads as "sexual harassment is 100x less abusive than forced 100 hour weeks," which is unnecessarily dismissive of sexual harassment as a problem. It would make a more persuasive comment to just pick a better simile.
- wutbrodo 9y ago
  I don't think their point is divisive unless you're already primed to be picking a pointless fight. It's just a way to anchor the level of abuse to something are already familiar with and passionate about, without having to give a detailed description of said abuses
  - maroonblazer 9y ago
    The comparison raised my eyebrow at first too, but then I wasn’t sure if they were referring to quality or quantity. It seems plausible that greater numbers of people are taken advantage of in terms of overtime/crunch, etc. However claiming that working long hours and not being compensated is 100x worse than sexual harassment seems much less clear.
    - bsenftner 9y ago
      It is not just the long hours. There is a psychological game being played on the developers that is a grand mind fuck. The hours are not even half of the issue. People break down working on games. They. break. down. Physically and mentally.
      - Mz 9y ago
        Sexual harassment and assault can have that effect to. Let me kindly suggest you not turn this unfortunate point of comparison into a hill to die on. It sounds incredibly insensitive, at the very least. Doubling (and tripling) down on it is not helping to clarify your point. It is merely digging your grave deeper. You don't actually have to handle it that way if communication is the goal. Best.
        auggierose 9y ago
        I think he can choose however he likes to convey his experience. You on the other hand come across as a condescending thought police. Go, write some code.
    - wutbrodo 9y ago
watwut 9y ago
This was puzzling about "there are not enough women in games development" fights. It is not a good job and it is not good for you trying to work in games. Most people leave the industry in five years - they leave the industry not just a job. The question is not why women dont go there and how to get them in. Chances are, they do a good guess about what it will be like and nope out. The question is why the hell men put up with all that and accept all the crap without even trying to negotiate.
- pjmlp 9y ago
  I guess it is the typical macho attitude, trying to prove one can handle better than the others. Often they seem to be clever than us. :)
- stephengillie 9y ago
  The same is often said about roofing jobs in the construction industry.
fellellor 9y ago
Could you explain what these phrases mean in the context of your comment - "computer scientist" stage, and "Crappy AI College" phase?
- deanCommie 9y ago
  Most areas of software engineering start in deeply theoretical stages where they're only studied in Computer Science universities. Then they gradually leak out where you no longer need a PhD to understand it but a 4 year Bachelors is still preferred. Then they enter the mainstream and any tech school will do (and maybe even just some online tutorials). Finally some shitty colleges will offer 2 year programs dedicated to teaching you "all the skills required to get a job in the industry" from scratch in 2 years. "Video game development" is squarely in the last category. Facial Recognition, NLP, ML are still in the second (out of the hands of academics but not quite plug-and-play yet - though getting there with TensorFlow and MXNet and some of the newer AWS services)
  - fellellor 9y ago
    Thanks
JBlue42 9y ago
Pretty much what I saw my short time in VFX. Met one or two people that had come in through games that said that, despite the long hours, vfx life was better. Most people at the companies were in their 20s. After a while, you normalize it: "Oh, next few months are chill, only on 10 hour days instead of 14s. But still have to work weekends." And since you're working so much, you're not spending all that overtime, sometimes double-time money. That's the thing vs the hours you see in other industries - at a decent company, you actually get paid for the hours you work. Now, you might have to carry your own healthcare and shit (because that's only for "staff", even if you've worked there for two years every single day) but at least you have a fair bit of money and can maybe up your quote between projects. My architect colleagues regularly put into 70-80 hrs/wk on a not great salary for a highly-trained, highly-regulated profession. That's great for people right of college that haven't gotten burned out. They don't know anything else and even get off on comparing 'how hard' ('how many hours') they worked. And, as you said, there are more around the corner. If you get too expensive, you might be pushed out the door. Because the margins in VFX, or so I've been told, are so low. The studios have the companies bid each other to as low as possible, and sometimes you take a loss to get a big project so you can possibly do business in the future. I think beyond employee unionization (which I never see happening, same in programming) it seems like vfx would need a national trade organization that could help them fight against not only the power of the studios but the outsourcing to Canada and elsewhere. Anyway, best of luck to you. Just wanted to second your comments and add a little of my own observations. I was only in for 3 or so years when I realized how debilitating and abusive it was and set out very quickly to change things up.
SophosQ 9y ago
As a layman, I'd be grateful if you could enumerate on this line: It is still just exiting the "computer scientist" stage, not at that "Crappy AI College" level yet

PhasmaFelis 9y ago

> their treatment is 100 times more abusive than the sexual harassment the larger public is currently outraged about. Spreading divisiveness between different groups of abused workers helps no one. They're both real, pervasive problems.

bsenftner 9y ago
Not intended to be divisive. Simply pointing out the severity.
- tobr 9y ago
  It jumped out at me too as a very unnecessary comparison. It reads like “sexual abuse is an exaggerated problem”, to be honest.
  - bsenftner 9y ago
    Sounds like my comparison is being lost here. The abuse is worse in the following manner: game developers were (don't know if currently, but I did over and over) were required to sign 'feature contracts' where we would sign off with risk of financial penalty a feature set to add or modify a game. The game is a known sports or some reoccurring franchise, and this contract is signature required to land the contract, before seeing the code or assets one is modifying. The entire team of one to two dozen developers and artists sign individual contracts, with fantasy milestones crafted sight unseen for the materials we are 'contractually bound' to work with and deliver functioning, bullet proof code. Typically a game would suffer at least one person quitting, one person melting down, and the rest of the team picking up the slack. "Crunch time" was 9 to 12 months of 7 days a week. Literally insane. And meanwhile both the producer from EA/Sony/Satan as well as your in-house producer are pressing everyone daily to stay late, get in early, and deliver, deliver. The only way to describe it is a type of Stockholm Syndrome. So, yes, in my opinion this is worse. This is pure insanity.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - bsenftner 9y ago
      Luc: being raped by a gang is not workplace sexual abuse. I never made the comparison you see.
      - in_cahoots 9y ago
        Many of the women in these latest scandals are saying they were raped, not simply harassed. I think that’s why your claim that the gaming industry is 100x worse is raising some criticism.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
    - csydas 9y ago
      I think the poor reception by some is that the original statement comes off as a little dismissive of sexual abuse and the reason that many people are outraged over it. The individual cases and instances are usually considered to be symptoms of a larger pervasive issue with discrimination in the work place which prevents many from having an equal opportunity to compete. To illustrate how some are reading it, one may read the above complaint as "working long hours at a desk job while people are literally having to choose between being sexually harassed or losing their job and potentially damaging their career's future with a harassment scandal". (Note I am not advocating anything here, just trying to demonstrate how it can feel condescending to have your plight diminshed by comparison) Having friends within the game industry, I know how horrible it is to the workers that make games happen because I've seen the effects on the workers first hand. I think that a description of the abuse is quite effective without trying to compare it to another major workplace problem that many people face, as both can be a severe problem that need to be addressed; it's not a triage situation where one must be prioritized, especially when both problems more or less come from the same source; employers abusing their power to manipulate and control employees to further the employer's desires.
      - 9y ago
- loeg 9y ago
  It doesn't improve your message. It reads as "sexual harassment is 100x less abusive than forced 100 hour weeks," which is unnecessarily dismissive of sexual harassment as a problem. It would make a more persuasive comment to just pick a better simile.
wutbrodo 9y ago
I don't think their point is divisive unless you're already primed to be picking a pointless fight. It's just a way to anchor the level of abuse to something are already familiar with and passionate about, without having to give a detailed description of said abuses
- maroonblazer 9y ago
  The comparison raised my eyebrow at first too, but then I wasn’t sure if they were referring to quality or quantity. It seems plausible that greater numbers of people are taken advantage of in terms of overtime/crunch, etc. However claiming that working long hours and not being compensated is 100x worse than sexual harassment seems much less clear.
  - bsenftner 9y ago
    It is not just the long hours. There is a psychological game being played on the developers that is a grand mind fuck. The hours are not even half of the issue. People break down working on games. They. break. down. Physically and mentally.
    - Mz 9y ago
      Sexual harassment and assault can have that effect to. Let me kindly suggest you not turn this unfortunate point of comparison into a hill to die on. It sounds incredibly insensitive, at the very least. Doubling (and tripling) down on it is not helping to clarify your point. It is merely digging your grave deeper. You don't actually have to handle it that way if communication is the goal. Best.
      - auggierose 9y ago
        I think he can choose however he likes to convey his experience. You on the other hand come across as a condescending thought police. Go, write some code.
  - wutbrodo 9y ago

watwut 9y ago

This was puzzling about "there are not enough women in games development" fights. It is not a good job and it is not good for you trying to work in games. Most people leave the industry in five years - they leave the industry not just a job. The question is not why women dont go there and how to get them in. Chances are, they do a good guess about what it will be like and nope out. The question is why the hell men put up with all that and accept all the crap without even trying to negotiate.

pjmlp 9y ago
I guess it is the typical macho attitude, trying to prove one can handle better than the others. Often they seem to be clever than us. :)
stephengillie 9y ago
The same is often said about roofing jobs in the construction industry.

fellellor 9y ago

Could you explain what these phrases mean in the context of your comment - "computer scientist" stage, and "Crappy AI College" phase?

deanCommie 9y ago
Most areas of software engineering start in deeply theoretical stages where they're only studied in Computer Science universities. Then they gradually leak out where you no longer need a PhD to understand it but a 4 year Bachelors is still preferred. Then they enter the mainstream and any tech school will do (and maybe even just some online tutorials). Finally some shitty colleges will offer 2 year programs dedicated to teaching you "all the skills required to get a job in the industry" from scratch in 2 years. "Video game development" is squarely in the last category. Facial Recognition, NLP, ML are still in the second (out of the hands of academics but not quite plug-and-play yet - though getting there with TensorFlow and MXNet and some of the newer AWS services)
- fellellor 9y ago
  Thanks

JBlue42 9y ago

Pretty much what I saw my short time in VFX. Met one or two people that had come in through games that said that, despite the long hours, vfx life was better. Most people at the companies were in their 20s. After a while, you normalize it: "Oh, next few months are chill, only on 10 hour days instead of 14s. But still have to work weekends." And since you're working so much, you're not spending all that overtime, sometimes double-time money. That's the thing vs the hours you see in other industries - at a decent company, you actually get paid for the hours you work. Now, you might have to carry your own healthcare and shit (because that's only for "staff", even if you've worked there for two years every single day) but at least you have a fair bit of money and can maybe up your quote between projects. My architect colleagues regularly put into 70-80 hrs/wk on a not great salary for a highly-trained, highly-regulated profession. That's great for people right of college that haven't gotten burned out. They don't know anything else and even get off on comparing 'how hard' ('how many hours') they worked. And, as you said, there are more around the corner. If you get too expensive, you might be pushed out the door. Because the margins in VFX, or so I've been told, are so low. The studios have the companies bid each other to as low as possible, and sometimes you take a loss to get a big project so you can possibly do business in the future. I think beyond employee unionization (which I never see happening, same in programming) it seems like vfx would need a national trade organization that could help them fight against not only the power of the studios but the outsourcing to Canada and elsewhere. Anyway, best of luck to you. Just wanted to second your comments and add a little of my own observations. I was only in for 3 or so years when I realized how debilitating and abusive it was and set out very quickly to change things up.

SophosQ 9y ago

As a layman, I'd be grateful if you could enumerate on this line: It is still just exiting the "computer scientist" stage, not at that "Crappy AI College" level yet