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Nobody is going to like what I am going to write, but I have the opinion that homeless people are generally happier in modern developed country when you compare

by jokoon 9y ago

Nobody is going to like what I am going to write, but I have the opinion that homeless people are generally happier in modern developed country when you compare to other countries. As long as there are minimum efforts done to take care of the poorest, meaning charities and a minimum of a justice system, things are relatively good enough. I think the debate rather belongs to why do we constantly need to use carrots to run a society? As long as society has rules that are in agreement with our natural instincts, meaning self preservation, things will be easily managed, but not easy for everyone. When we will understand that "go get that income by yourself, joe!" cannot always function properly, maybe things will change a little. I have never understood the undying belief that "work is necessary for society to function". It is not. Humans have constantly worked to avoid human labor, but for some weird reason, people still want to work and mooching has a bad reputation. We are just approaching a weird, dystopian future where food is everywhere, but for some reason humans cannot agree to find a relevant system to feed and shelter everyone properly. Capitalism is not the problem, it is just that nobody can agree on helping each other, and I sense that everyone is afraid of letting government be more gentle because it would somehow resemble communism or socialism. Go figure.

eksemplar 9y ago
Capitalism as an economic system may not be a problem, but capital in politics is. You shouldn't be able to pay the political system to allow you to essentially destroy the planet with pollution. But good luck fixing that. :)
amorphid 9y ago
I've been homeless in the United States. It sucked big time. Saying homeless people in developed countries are happier than other countries might be true. But that feels kind of like saying most people would rather get stabbed in the leg by a short knife than shot in the chest by a 44 magnum. Homelessness, at least the involuntary flavor, stinks, and I wouldn't wish it upon anyone.
gnulinux 9y ago
I agree with everything you said except the last bit. I wonder if you actually made some research about your own words and ideas. For example: > When we will understand that "go get that income by yourself, joe!" cannot always function properly, maybe things will change a little. I have never understood the undying belief that "work is necessary for society to function". It is not. Humans have constantly worked to avoid human labor, but for some weird reason, people still want to work and mooching has a bad reputation. Believe it or not, this is one of the core arguments of Marx. I wonder what was your reasoning to conclude "Capitalism is not the problem". I'm very interested to discuss this. I think talking about "capitalism" and "communism" is the worst thing we can do at this point, since these words are extremely politicized and they have no meaning at all. Like, today "communism" refers specifically to USSR's Ideology (state capitalism, centrally planned anti-consumerist economy etc...), a Stalin and post-Stalin form of Marxism-Leninism, which has pretty much _nothing_ to do with Marx's original ideas. Anyway, we should start talking about concrete things, like private property. And, it seems to me that, one logical conclusion of your reasoning is that private property is at least a problematic concept for our society.
- kiliantics 9y ago
  Thank you. Everyone seems to think they know what they're talking about but there is so much disinformation about the concepts of capitalism and socialism. The problem is absolutely capitalism. That system is what causes people to behave the way they do. "Human nature" is a product of our environment more than it is any kind of inherent and unchanging thing. Otherwise humans could not have survived and evolved to changes in surrounding nature as they did. And the solution is certainly not Soviet style state socialism. But there are so many other options. I'm most interested by the attempts at a new social order that were made in revolutionary Catalonia and other places. Similar attempts are being made right now in Syrian Kurdistan - aka Rojava - where they are doing remarkably well despite the ongoing crisis. They call it democratic confederalism.
  - gnulinux 9y ago
    Hey! Your comment cheered me up! I certainly agree that capitalism is the problem but whatever USSR did is not a solution. In fact, USSR had so many things wrong, I can easily say capitalism is preferable to bastardized, authoritarian state capitalism that is Marxism-Leninism. Democratic confedaralism (ideas of Bookchin, Ocalan etc...) are refreshing and we should definitely read them, but I do not think they solve the fundamental problem. As a Marxist, I believe fundamental problem is capital, and without the people, _voluntarily_ (not dictated by bunch of 'revolutionaries' i.e. opportunists) rejecting their business owners to exploit them, nothing fundamental will be solved. And then, it should be ensured that the very conditions that created capital cannot be produced again. I wish more hackers read sociology, but unfortunately it is quite common among us to think sociology as an unimportant pseudoscience, without understanding any of it. When I discuss these issues with my friends, they quickly choose "but then Stalin killed XYZ million people" as their argument. He sure did, but that doesn't mean our world cannot be improved. And implications of this train of thought to our job (programming) are obvious too. Even though most programmers are rich, doesn't mean they're not exploited. Most programmers are forced by their companies to use certain softwares that surveil and spy on them. Some companies force their workers not to read GPL'd code _even in their free time_. Why do we accept this?
stephengillie 9y ago
Homeless people in the USA may be relatively more opportunities and benefits than homeless people in other countries. But having been homeless - and not knowing who's going to give you your next meal - working in almost any nation is better than being homeless in the USA. The gutter between upper class and poverty is nothing like the chasm between poverty and homelessness.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
smt88 9y ago
> Nobody is going to like what I am going to write, but I have the opinion that homeless people are generally happier in modern developed country when you compare to other countries. You're smart and self-aware enough to have this thought. Why go on and contribute your uninformed opinion? Why not research whether homeless people really are happy or ask people who've been homeless? > As long as there are minimum efforts done to take care of the poorest, meaning charities and a minimum of a justice system, things are relatively good enough. Happiness and hope don't come from other people's "minimum efforts".

by jokoon 9y ago

eksemplar 9y ago

Capitalism as an economic system may not be a problem, but capital in politics is. You shouldn't be able to pay the political system to allow you to essentially destroy the planet with pollution. But good luck fixing that. :)

amorphid 9y ago

I've been homeless in the United States. It sucked big time. Saying homeless people in developed countries are happier than other countries might be true. But that feels kind of like saying most people would rather get stabbed in the leg by a short knife than shot in the chest by a 44 magnum. Homelessness, at least the involuntary flavor, stinks, and I wouldn't wish it upon anyone.

gnulinux 9y ago

I agree with everything you said except the last bit. I wonder if you actually made some research about your own words and ideas. For example: > When we will understand that "go get that income by yourself, joe!" cannot always function properly, maybe things will change a little. I have never understood the undying belief that "work is necessary for society to function". It is not. Humans have constantly worked to avoid human labor, but for some weird reason, people still want to work and mooching has a bad reputation. Believe it or not, this is one of the core arguments of Marx. I wonder what was your reasoning to conclude "Capitalism is not the problem". I'm very interested to discuss this. I think talking about "capitalism" and "communism" is the worst thing we can do at this point, since these words are extremely politicized and they have no meaning at all. Like, today "communism" refers specifically to USSR's Ideology (state capitalism, centrally planned anti-consumerist economy etc...), a Stalin and post-Stalin form of Marxism-Leninism, which has pretty much _nothing_ to do with Marx's original ideas. Anyway, we should start talking about concrete things, like private property. And, it seems to me that, one logical conclusion of your reasoning is that private property is at least a problematic concept for our society.

kiliantics 9y ago
Thank you. Everyone seems to think they know what they're talking about but there is so much disinformation about the concepts of capitalism and socialism. The problem is absolutely capitalism. That system is what causes people to behave the way they do. "Human nature" is a product of our environment more than it is any kind of inherent and unchanging thing. Otherwise humans could not have survived and evolved to changes in surrounding nature as they did. And the solution is certainly not Soviet style state socialism. But there are so many other options. I'm most interested by the attempts at a new social order that were made in revolutionary Catalonia and other places. Similar attempts are being made right now in Syrian Kurdistan - aka Rojava - where they are doing remarkably well despite the ongoing crisis. They call it democratic confederalism.
- gnulinux 9y ago
  Hey! Your comment cheered me up! I certainly agree that capitalism is the problem but whatever USSR did is not a solution. In fact, USSR had so many things wrong, I can easily say capitalism is preferable to bastardized, authoritarian state capitalism that is Marxism-Leninism. Democratic confedaralism (ideas of Bookchin, Ocalan etc...) are refreshing and we should definitely read them, but I do not think they solve the fundamental problem. As a Marxist, I believe fundamental problem is capital, and without the people, _voluntarily_ (not dictated by bunch of 'revolutionaries' i.e. opportunists) rejecting their business owners to exploit them, nothing fundamental will be solved. And then, it should be ensured that the very conditions that created capital cannot be produced again. I wish more hackers read sociology, but unfortunately it is quite common among us to think sociology as an unimportant pseudoscience, without understanding any of it. When I discuss these issues with my friends, they quickly choose "but then Stalin killed XYZ million people" as their argument. He sure did, but that doesn't mean our world cannot be improved. And implications of this train of thought to our job (programming) are obvious too. Even though most programmers are rich, doesn't mean they're not exploited. Most programmers are forced by their companies to use certain softwares that surveil and spy on them. Some companies force their workers not to read GPL'd code _even in their free time_. Why do we accept this?

stephengillie 9y ago

Homeless people in the USA may be relatively more opportunities and benefits than homeless people in other countries. But having been homeless - and not knowing who's going to give you your next meal - working in almost any nation is better than being homeless in the USA. The gutter between upper class and poverty is nothing like the chasm between poverty and homelessness.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

smt88 9y ago

> Nobody is going to like what I am going to write, but I have the opinion that homeless people are generally happier in modern developed country when you compare to other countries. You're smart and self-aware enough to have this thought. Why go on and contribute your uninformed opinion? Why not research whether homeless people really are happy or ask people who've been homeless? > As long as there are minimum efforts done to take care of the poorest, meaning charities and a minimum of a justice system, things are relatively good enough. Happiness and hope don't come from other people's "minimum efforts".