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I'm French and I hope we do not align with the American cultural doctrine of self-reinforcement, which has, I dare say, slowly drifted towards a worrying train

I'm French and I hope we do not align with the American cultural doctrine of self-reinforcement, which has, I dare say, slowly drifted towards a worrying train of thought were everything is equal, any opinion has value, any choice you make is to celebrated. By all means, I don't see shaming as the sign of a healthy society and I hope for people never to have to suffer humiliation or belittling, but there should be, in my opinion, a certain level of acknowledgment that being overweight has dire consequences for not only one's health on the middle to long term, but also terrible side-effects in terms of public health and the economy at large. As we're spending dozens of billions caring for diabetes, cholesterol, hypertension, heart attacks and the myriad of other diseases that correlate heavily with the lack of exercise and an unhealthy diet, we're neglecting research, schools and the social fabric that used to make France a great country to live in. The ultimate irony is that we used to have a formula that worked just fine to gift us with one of the highest life expectancies in western societies a few decades ago, before we decided that Burger King, Coca Cola, Subway, McDonald's and KFC really were what we had been missing for so long.

qntty 9y ago
On average, obese people are a smaller burden on the health care system because they die quickly (from a heart attack or something similar) rather than the drawn out deaths that people of average weight have. End-of-life care is by far the most expensive (health care wise) phase of a person's life.
- adventured 9y ago
  You're neglecting to consider scale. That is, the healthcare costs that arise when you have 30% or 40% adult obesity in a nation. People over the age of 65 are less than 15% of the population in the US as a reference. Further, a lot of those obese people still live into their late 60s, 70s, 80s. We've gotten better and better - at a high cost - at keeping them alive despite the consequences of the obesity.
  - qntty 9y ago
    I'm merely stating the conclusions that others have reached, so I certainly haven't considered these points. If you are an expert in the subject then by all means engage with the people who do this sort of research. See my other comment for a source if you're interested.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- FooHentai 9y ago
  Not true. First off, premature death from obesity-related illnesses, before retirement age, means that individual contributed less than a full working life into the system i.e. if you drop out of the workforce at 40 due to poor health, there's ~25 years of productivity and tax income that will not be realized. Second, if you have the image of obesity related deaths being a sudden heart attack and dropping dead that same day, you'd be wrong. Diabetes, cancer, heart disease (within the spectrum of which a heart attack is only one likely consequence and sits alongside angina, strokes etc), these are long drawn-out declines that many obese people will suffer. Third, accommodating obese patients requires significant specialist equipment, all of which places a burden on the system which would not be present if obese persons were not present. Specialized ambulances, MRI machines, gurneys, hoists, widened doorways etc. “Obese men rack up an additional $1,152 a year in medical spending, especially for hospitalizations and prescription drugs, Cawley and Chad Meyerhoefer of Lehigh University reported in January in the Journal of Health Economics. Obese women account for an extra $3,613 a year. Using data from 9,852 men (average BMI: 28) and 13,837 women (average BMI: 27) ages 20 to 64, among whom 28 percent were obese, the researchers found even higher costs among the uninsured: annual medical spending for an obese person was $3,271 compared with $512 for the non-obese.” https://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2012/04/30/obesity-now-costs-americans-more-in-healthcare-costs-than-smoking/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2012/04/30/obesity-no...
  - qntty 9y ago
    These are all interesting points for researchers to consider. I'm not a researcher so all I can do is read their conclusions and they say that lifetime costs for obese patients are still lower despite all these factors. You can read more here: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080204212858.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080204212858.h...
justin66 9y ago
> I'm French and I hope we do not align with the American cultural doctrine of self-reinforcement, which has, I dare say, slowly drifted towards a worrying train of thought were everything is equal, any opinion has value, any choice you make is to celebrated. Is that how you perceive the United States right now? People tripping over themselves to accommodate diverse opinions and points of view with an irrational excess of mutual respect? It sounds like you're describing a caricature of a Unitarian Sunday school, or some other thing that represents pretty much the opposite of Trump's America.
- implovizer 9y ago
  pretty much the opposite of Trump's America more like: “pretty much half of America while Trump just happens to be president for a couple of years, by some odd quirk of an electoral process” ftfy Just because 51% of America’s assholes suddenly came out of the woodwork and voted for a jerk, doesn’t mean the other 49% of America’s assholes disappeared. Both sides have their albatrosses.
  - QuercusMax 9y ago
    51% isn't even accurate. Hillary got more votes, they just unfortunately weren't in the right places.
  - justin66 9y ago
    I thought "Trump's America" was a decent enough moniker for a culture (an entire culture, larger than just the 49% of the electorate that put him in office, if that makes you feel better) that has lost the ability to engage with one another intelligently and with decorum, since he's the epitome of that phenomenon. It's interesting that you took it and ran with it in an entirely different direction.

qntty 9y ago

On average, obese people are a smaller burden on the health care system because they die quickly (from a heart attack or something similar) rather than the drawn out deaths that people of average weight have. End-of-life care is by far the most expensive (health care wise) phase of a person's life.

adventured 9y ago
You're neglecting to consider scale. That is, the healthcare costs that arise when you have 30% or 40% adult obesity in a nation. People over the age of 65 are less than 15% of the population in the US as a reference. Further, a lot of those obese people still live into their late 60s, 70s, 80s. We've gotten better and better - at a high cost - at keeping them alive despite the consequences of the obesity.
- qntty 9y ago
  I'm merely stating the conclusions that others have reached, so I certainly haven't considered these points. If you are an expert in the subject then by all means engage with the people who do this sort of research. See my other comment for a source if you're interested.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
FooHentai 9y ago
Not true. First off, premature death from obesity-related illnesses, before retirement age, means that individual contributed less than a full working life into the system i.e. if you drop out of the workforce at 40 due to poor health, there's ~25 years of productivity and tax income that will not be realized. Second, if you have the image of obesity related deaths being a sudden heart attack and dropping dead that same day, you'd be wrong. Diabetes, cancer, heart disease (within the spectrum of which a heart attack is only one likely consequence and sits alongside angina, strokes etc), these are long drawn-out declines that many obese people will suffer. Third, accommodating obese patients requires significant specialist equipment, all of which places a burden on the system which would not be present if obese persons were not present. Specialized ambulances, MRI machines, gurneys, hoists, widened doorways etc. “Obese men rack up an additional $1,152 a year in medical spending, especially for hospitalizations and prescription drugs, Cawley and Chad Meyerhoefer of Lehigh University reported in January in the Journal of Health Economics. Obese women account for an extra $3,613 a year. Using data from 9,852 men (average BMI: 28) and 13,837 women (average BMI: 27) ages 20 to 64, among whom 28 percent were obese, the researchers found even higher costs among the uninsured: annual medical spending for an obese person was $3,271 compared with $512 for the non-obese.” https://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2012/04/30/obesity-now-costs-americans-more-in-healthcare-costs-than-smoking/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2012/04/30/obesity-no...
- qntty 9y ago
  These are all interesting points for researchers to consider. I'm not a researcher so all I can do is read their conclusions and they say that lifetime costs for obese patients are still lower despite all these factors. You can read more here: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080204212858.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080204212858.h...

justin66 9y ago

> I'm French and I hope we do not align with the American cultural doctrine of self-reinforcement, which has, I dare say, slowly drifted towards a worrying train of thought were everything is equal, any opinion has value, any choice you make is to celebrated. Is that how you perceive the United States right now? People tripping over themselves to accommodate diverse opinions and points of view with an irrational excess of mutual respect? It sounds like you're describing a caricature of a Unitarian Sunday school, or some other thing that represents pretty much the opposite of Trump's America.

implovizer 9y ago
pretty much the opposite of Trump's America more like: “pretty much half of America while Trump just happens to be president for a couple of years, by some odd quirk of an electoral process” ftfy Just because 51% of America’s assholes suddenly came out of the woodwork and voted for a jerk, doesn’t mean the other 49% of America’s assholes disappeared. Both sides have their albatrosses.
- QuercusMax 9y ago
  51% isn't even accurate. Hillary got more votes, they just unfortunately weren't in the right places.
- justin66 9y ago
  I thought "Trump's America" was a decent enough moniker for a culture (an entire culture, larger than just the 49% of the electorate that put him in office, if that makes you feel better) that has lost the ability to engage with one another intelligently and with decorum, since he's the epitome of that phenomenon. It's interesting that you took it and ran with it in an entirely different direction.